(04-30-2017 09:24 AM)450bench Wrote:  Zbo is a better player than Pau, IMO. I don't think it's even close.

Well 450, seems we agree in the Political Forum, but disagree on player valuation.

Pau had a PER over 20, double ZBo's win shares playing on a 61 win team. Does ZBo having the literally worst TPA of any player in the playoffs not affect your opinion at all?

True, I wouldn't want to pay Pau's salary next year. But that's not a reason for our FO to overpay ZBo.

The Parsons contract is rearing its ugly head. If signing him causes us to lose Tony and Zbo...man.

Just for additional reference:

http://www.grizzlybearblues.com/2017/4/2...aways-2017

JaMychael = 3 or 4 years for $30M-$50M ... $10M per year seems like his market value (maybe someone falls in love with his defense and ability to stretch floor at the 4 and offers $12M per?)
Tony = 2+1 (TO) years for $16M ... $8M per year (MLE)
Zach = 2+1 (TO) years for $20M ... similar to the Al Jefferson deal, $10M per
Vince = 1+1 (TO) years for $3M per

Interesting to see what happens. That would be $31M added to the books for next season. The team total (assuming everyone is back which is unlikely) would be $123M which is in the luxury tax ($122M)

I could see the roster/salaries looking something like this...

(05-01-2017 01:05 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  I could see the roster/salaries looking something like this...

I doubt they bring back the same roster that has lost in the first round two years in a row

Roster will be mostly the same, Dynamos. Just don't get this blow it up mentality since we lost in the first round. Blow it up is more likely to bring us closer to the Nets and Kings than the Spurs and Warriors. And there is no guarantee we don't get stuck there for 5 years. Grizz will ride the Mike and Marc era as long as they can.

Grizz will bring Rade over, they said last week he'll play in the Summer League. Decide on ZBo, TA & Vince. Have the MLE exception to find a shooting guard. Have a glut of 4's, so if they re-sign JMike, could trade Brandan and/or Jarell. We have three 2nd Rd picks in the 2018 draft, so could use those to trade into 2nd round of this year's draft. Other than that, this is the team.

(05-01-2017 01:25 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 01:05 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  I could see the roster/salaries looking something like this...

I doubt they bring back the same roster that has lost in the first round two years in a row

I think it's pretty obvious that we will try to move Wright. Maybe Martin and Baldwin too, but given our lack of picks, we may hold onto them for one more year. Don't think Vince will be back.

But also, the team we lost with in 2016 was not THIS team. It was a bunch of injury exception guys...And this year's team probably would've knocked off the 2 seed with either a healthy TA or Chandler Parsons. So we don't have to reinvent the wheel...we just need guys to be healthy.

(05-01-2017 01:53 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Roster will be mostly the same, Dynamos. Just don't get this blow it up mentality since we lost in the first round. Blow it up is more likely to bring us closer to the Nets and Kings than the Spurs and Warriors. And there is no guarantee we don't get stuck there for 5 years. Grizz will ride the Mike and Marc era as long as they can.

Grizz will bring Rade over, they said last week he'll play in the Summer League. Decide on ZBo, TA & Vince. Have the MLE exception to find a shooting guard. Have a glut of 4's, so if they re-sign JMike, could trade Brandan and/or Jarell. We have three 2nd Rd picks in the 2018 draft, so could use those to trade into 2nd round of this year's draft. Other than that, this is the team.

When did I say anything about blowing it up? I dont consider any roster move outside of trading Marc or Mike as blowing it up.

All Im saying is if they returned the exact same roster who struggled to make the playoffs and lost in the first round it would be a major disappointment

(05-01-2017 09:09 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 01:53 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Roster will be mostly the same, Dynamos. Just don't get this blow it up mentality since we lost in the first round. Blow it up is more likely to bring us closer to the Nets and Kings than the Spurs and Warriors. And there is no guarantee we don't get stuck there for 5 years. Grizz will ride the Mike and Marc era as long as they can.

Grizz will bring Rade over, they said last week he'll play in the Summer League. Decide on ZBo, TA & Vince. Have the MLE exception to find a shooting guard. Have a glut of 4's, so if they re-sign JMike, could trade Brandan and/or Jarell. We have three 2nd Rd picks in the 2018 draft, so could use those to trade into 2nd round of this year's draft. Other than that, this is the team.

When did I say anything about blowing it up? I dont consider any roster move outside of trading Marc or Mike as blowing it up.

All Im saying is if they returned the exact same roster who struggled to make the playoffs and lost in the first round it would be a major disappointment

Ok, you're right, I assumed that's what you meant.

But the roster is never exactly the same year to year, you will always have at least a 25% roster turnover just from ending contracts, trades, the draft, free agents and retirements. Usually closer to 40%. So that's what confused me.

(05-01-2017 09:09 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 01:53 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Roster will be mostly the same, Dynamos. Just don't get this blow it up mentality since we lost in the first round. Blow it up is more likely to bring us closer to the Nets and Kings than the Spurs and Warriors. And there is no guarantee we don't get stuck there for 5 years. Grizz will ride the Mike and Marc era as long as they can.

Grizz will bring Rade over, they said last week he'll play in the Summer League. Decide on ZBo, TA & Vince. Have the MLE exception to find a shooting guard. Have a glut of 4's, so if they re-sign JMike, could trade Brandan and/or Jarell. We have three 2nd Rd picks in the 2018 draft, so could use those to trade into 2nd round of this year's draft. Other than that, this is the team.

When did I say anything about blowing it up? I dont consider any roster move outside of trading Marc or Mike as blowing it up.

All Im saying is if they returned the exact same roster who struggled to make the playoffs and lost in the first round it would be a major disappointment

Again, I won't see it as a disappointment. Honestly, we probably won't have the cap room to make any major moves in free agency. When you consider who we could afford, bringing back most of these guys actually seems like a good thing.

This team was a healthy TA or Chandler Parsons - EITHER ONE - from beating the 2 seed.

I'm all for trying it out another year. If it looks like it's falling apart by the All-Star break, then blow it up or re-tool.

(05-01-2017 09:59 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:09 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 01:53 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Roster will be mostly the same, Dynamos. Just don't get this blow it up mentality since we lost in the first round. Blow it up is more likely to bring us closer to the Nets and Kings than the Spurs and Warriors. And there is no guarantee we don't get stuck there for 5 years. Grizz will ride the Mike and Marc era as long as they can.

Grizz will bring Rade over, they said last week he'll play in the Summer League. Decide on ZBo, TA & Vince. Have the MLE exception to find a shooting guard. Have a glut of 4's, so if they re-sign JMike, could trade Brandan and/or Jarell. We have three 2nd Rd picks in the 2018 draft, so could use those to trade into 2nd round of this year's draft. Other than that, this is the team.

When did I say anything about blowing it up? I dont consider any roster move outside of trading Marc or Mike as blowing it up.

All Im saying is if they returned the exact same roster who struggled to make the playoffs and lost in the first round it would be a major disappointment

Again, I won't see it as a disappointment. Honestly, we probably won't have the cap room to make any major moves in free agency. When you consider who we could afford, bringing back most of these guys actually seems like a good thing.

This team was a healthy TA or Chandler Parsons - EITHER ONE - from beating the 2 seed.

I'm all for trying it out another year. If it looks like it's falling apart by the All-Star break, then blow it up or re-tool.

Didnt they techically fall apart last season? They started 17-6 but finished 43-39. That's 26-33 in the last 59 games. What would you consider "falling apart"?

I can easily see this team missing the playoff next year

(05-02-2017 02:31 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:59 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:09 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 01:53 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Roster will be mostly the same, Dynamos. Just don't get this blow it up mentality since we lost in the first round. Blow it up is more likely to bring us closer to the Nets and Kings than the Spurs and Warriors. And there is no guarantee we don't get stuck there for 5 years. Grizz will ride the Mike and Marc era as long as they can.

Grizz will bring Rade over, they said last week he'll play in the Summer League. Decide on ZBo, TA & Vince. Have the MLE exception to find a shooting guard. Have a glut of 4's, so if they re-sign JMike, could trade Brandan and/or Jarell. We have three 2nd Rd picks in the 2018 draft, so could use those to trade into 2nd round of this year's draft. Other than that, this is the team.

When did I say anything about blowing it up? I dont consider any roster move outside of trading Marc or Mike as blowing it up.

All Im saying is if they returned the exact same roster who struggled to make the playoffs and lost in the first round it would be a major disappointment

Again, I won't see it as a disappointment. Honestly, we probably won't have the cap room to make any major moves in free agency. When you consider who we could afford, bringing back most of these guys actually seems like a good thing.

This team was a healthy TA or Chandler Parsons - EITHER ONE - from beating the 2 seed.

I'm all for trying it out another year. If it looks like it's falling apart by the All-Star break, then blow it up or re-tool.

Didnt they techically fall apart last season? They started 17-6 but finished 43-39. That's 26-33 in the last 59 games. What would you consider "falling apart"?

I can easily see this team missing the playoff next year

Minor point but we were never 17-6. Got to 17-8, so close.

We were 40-30, then went 3-9 the rest of the way. If had just gone .500 the last month, then we are a 46 win team, which is what was expected if Marc & Chandler came back healthy, and only one did. Think we got locked into the 7 seed, and our veteran players lost a bit of focus.

I don't think we fell apart.

(05-02-2017 02:44 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(05-02-2017 02:31 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:59 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:09 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 01:53 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Roster will be mostly the same, Dynamos. Just don't get this blow it up mentality since we lost in the first round. Blow it up is more likely to bring us closer to the Nets and Kings than the Spurs and Warriors. And there is no guarantee we don't get stuck there for 5 years. Grizz will ride the Mike and Marc era as long as they can.

Grizz will bring Rade over, they said last week he'll play in the Summer League. Decide on ZBo, TA & Vince. Have the MLE exception to find a shooting guard. Have a glut of 4's, so if they re-sign JMike, could trade Brandan and/or Jarell. We have three 2nd Rd picks in the 2018 draft, so could use those to trade into 2nd round of this year's draft. Other than that, this is the team.

When did I say anything about blowing it up? I dont consider any roster move outside of trading Marc or Mike as blowing it up.

All Im saying is if they returned the exact same roster who struggled to make the playoffs and lost in the first round it would be a major disappointment

Again, I won't see it as a disappointment. Honestly, we probably won't have the cap room to make any major moves in free agency. When you consider who we could afford, bringing back most of these guys actually seems like a good thing.

This team was a healthy TA or Chandler Parsons - EITHER ONE - from beating the 2 seed.

I'm all for trying it out another year. If it looks like it's falling apart by the All-Star break, then blow it up or re-tool.

Didnt they techically fall apart last season? They started 17-6 but finished 43-39. That's 26-33 in the last 59 games. What would you consider "falling apart"?

I can easily see this team missing the playoff next year

Minor point but we were never 17-6. Got to 17-8, so close.

We were 40-30, then went 3-9 the rest of the way. If had just gone .500 the last month, then we are a 46 win team, which is what was expected if Marc & Chandler came back healthy, and only one did. Think we got locked into the 7 seed, and our veteran players lost a bit of focus.

I don't think we fell apart.

We will see. I think Parsons returning to form is the only thing that can save this team and even with that their ceiling is probably a second round exit team.

Probably true re the ceiling. Maybe a 2nd round win depending on opponent and injuries.

While FO has not drafted well, it has made some very good minor deals and free agent pick-ups. Like a year of Matt Barnes for the corpse of Janis Timma. James Johnson, Beno, the Courtney Lee trade for Bayless. Obviously JMike from the D-League. So that is what I'm looking forward to this summer. Especially after the draft, a 2 guard on a team that drafted a guard could be a trade target.

And it will be fun watching our Summer League team with 5 legitimate prospects starting - Wade & Selden in the backcourt, Rade & Jarell and DD in the frontcourt.

(05-02-2017 02:31 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:59 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:09 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 01:53 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Roster will be mostly the same, Dynamos. Just don't get this blow it up mentality since we lost in the first round. Blow it up is more likely to bring us closer to the Nets and Kings than the Spurs and Warriors. And there is no guarantee we don't get stuck there for 5 years. Grizz will ride the Mike and Marc era as long as they can.

Grizz will bring Rade over, they said last week he'll play in the Summer League. Decide on ZBo, TA & Vince. Have the MLE exception to find a shooting guard. Have a glut of 4's, so if they re-sign JMike, could trade Brandan and/or Jarell. We have three 2nd Rd picks in the 2018 draft, so could use those to trade into 2nd round of this year's draft. Other than that, this is the team.

When did I say anything about blowing it up? I dont consider any roster move outside of trading Marc or Mike as blowing it up.

All Im saying is if they returned the exact same roster who struggled to make the playoffs and lost in the first round it would be a major disappointment

Again, I won't see it as a disappointment. Honestly, we probably won't have the cap room to make any major moves in free agency. When you consider who we could afford, bringing back most of these guys actually seems like a good thing.

This team was a healthy TA or Chandler Parsons - EITHER ONE - from beating the 2 seed.

I'm all for trying it out another year. If it looks like it's falling apart by the All-Star break, then blow it up or re-tool.

I can easily see this team missing the playoff next year

I won't argue that. I'm just not sure there's much we can do in free agency to avoid that. If we let TA and ZBo walk, who do we replace them with? I know there are guys out there...but they either aren't affordable or aren't considerable upgrades.

If my choices is TA or Thabo Sefolosha...gimme TA. If it's between ZBo and Nene...gimme ZBo.

Maybe we could let TA walk for a younger affordable shooter (Tony Snell). But that could be a hard sell.

I don't think our outlook is that bleak.

Spurs have Tony Parker at $16M next year, and Pau will opt in on his PO at $15M. Do you want Lamarcus Aldridge at $20M+ for the next 3 years? Not sure I do. Patty Mills and Dedmon are Free Agents, and they might not be able to sign either.

Clips have CP3 wanting the new 35% max deal, and Blake and JJ will be free agents. And their bench is already horrible. If they re-sign those guys, have to fill out roster with vet minimums. Will be paying Austin Rivers & Jamal a total of $25M per year for the next 3 years, and neither is a full-time starter. Clips are a mess.

Point is every team has issues. We just know our issues better.

All comes down to health.

(05-02-2017 03:02 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Probably true re the ceiling. Maybe a 2nd round win depending on opponent and injuries.

While FO has not drafted well, it has made some very good minor deals and free agent pick-ups. Like a year of Matt Barnes for the corpse of Janis Timma. James Johnson, Beno, the Courtney Lee trade for Bayless. Obviously JMike from the D-League. So that is what I'm looking forward to this summer. Especially after the draft, a 2 guard on a team that drafted a guard could be a trade target.

And it will be fun watching our Summer League team with 5 legitimate prospects starting - Wade & Selden in the backcourt, Rade & Jarell and DD in the frontcourt.

I doubt Rade would come here only to spend the year in the d league and if Jarell is still a d league caliber player in year 3 its time to cut bait imo

(05-02-2017 04:26 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(05-02-2017 03:02 PM)Tigx Wrote:  Probably true re the ceiling. Maybe a 2nd round win depending on opponent and injuries.

While FO has not drafted well, it has made some very good minor deals and free agent pick-ups. Like a year of Matt Barnes for the corpse of Janis Timma. James Johnson, Beno, the Courtney Lee trade for Bayless. Obviously JMike from the D-League. So that is what I'm looking forward to this summer. Especially after the draft, a 2 guard on a team that drafted a guard could be a trade target.

And it will be fun watching our Summer League team with 5 legitimate prospects starting - Wade & Selden in the backcourt, Rade & Jarell and DD in the frontcourt.

I doubt Rade would come here only to spend the year in the d league and if Jarell is still a d league caliber player in year 3 its time to cut bait imo

Agree on Jarell. I actually like him now that he is healthy, but don't know if Grizz FO is that high on him. Jarell has to play the 4. So depends on what they do with JMike and ZBo and Brandan. Plus, they might have Parsons play some small-ball 4. Just seems like there is no path for Jarell.

Pretty sure you are wrong on Rade. Word is he is already over here working out. And he will definitely play in Las Vegas. They like Rade a lot. Hollinger said he is a legit 6'9" now. And Rade should want to get his career started, sooner it starts, sooner the player can complete his rookie contract and potentially make the big money.

Also remember with the new CBA there are 2 more roster spots for the 2-way players.

(05-02-2017 04:15 PM)Tigx Wrote:  I don't think our outlook is that bleak.

Spurs have Tony Parker at $16M next year, and Pau will opt in on his PO at $15M. Do you want Lamarcus Aldridge at $20M+ for the next 3 years? Not sure I do. Patty Mills and Dedmon are Free Agents, and they might not be able to sign either.

Clips have CP3 wanting the new 35% max deal, and Blake and JJ will be free agents. And their bench is already horrible. If they re-sign those guys, have to fill out roster with vet minimums. Will be paying Austin Rivers & Jamal a total of $25M per year for the next 3 years, and neither is a full-time starter. Clips are a mess.

Point is every team has issues. We just know our issues better.

All comes down to health.

Yup. The new money has complicated some rosters for sure.

Guys have to take less at a time when more is available than ever before. Don't see it happening. Some of these teams are going to lose some key guys. Maybe not the stars, but the role players that take a team from solid to elite.

I think we are in an okay spot...all things considered.

The draft will be huge for a lot of teams in the coming years. Gotta hit on young cheap guys.