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JMU and cost of attendence
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billymac Offline
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Post: #21
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
That's just simply not true. It's just the traditional old school W&M response to these type problems.

Actually, that is where the fight is at UR. The Admissions Office hasn't been giving in to the coaches (the Grad transfer that ended up -playing well- at Xavier this season, for example, after being denied at UR).
Their big donors apparently want to work towards a system that is closer to that of some of the eastern elite academic schools (Vandy, UVA, Wake, Northwestern, etc) that seem to be able to get in solid student-athletes and still remain elite. (Something W&M should also keep in mind.) Duke and UVA's academic ranking have not gone down since they've gotten better in b-ball and football (well, UVA's a bad example there (FB), but... 03-wink... the idea is the same).

In today's world, it has been proven that, with a little creative thinking, you can have high academics and competitive sports. Richmond's administration will have to rethink it's hard line (as should W&M) on numbers, but there is a huge difference between "lowering the school's standards" and changing the question to "can this person handle the job of being a student and an athlete at this school", SAT numbers be damned.

I really thought people on this board were more of the "let's find a way" type, but I, apparently, could be wrong. There's an awful lot of "never change W&M" sentiment on here.

In my opinion, the old way of saying you can't do both, it's impossible at an elite school, is just a handy excuse for those that probably want a Washington & Lee (D-III) type experience at W&M. It's been proven, repeatedly, that it can work, with some effort.

I'm in the "let's explore change" group. Hopefully, the recent For the Bold initiative will open up those same type discussions at W&M, that this power play did at Richmond. If not, maybe we need to go get us a couple of those Donors.
05-11-2017 04:15 PM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #22
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-11-2017 03:54 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 03:42 PM)BigTribe3 Wrote:  The key to all this is that Richmond will lower their academic standards so they can get any player in there regardless of his academic record.

Richmond has academic standards???

Don't you be talking about my safety school like that. 05-stirthepot
05-11-2017 06:20 PM
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Got Ribe Offline
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Post: #23
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-11-2017 04:15 PM)billymac Wrote:  That's just simply not true. It's just the traditional old school W&M response to these type problems.

Actually, that is where the fight is at UR. The Admissions Office hasn't been giving in to the coaches (the Grad transfer that ended up -playing well- at Xavier this season, for example, after being denied at UR).
Their big donors apparently want to work towards a system that is closer to that of some of the eastern elite academic schools (Vandy, UVA, Wake, Northwestern, etc) that seem to be able to get in solid student-athletes and still remain elite. (Something W&M should also keep in mind.) Duke and UVA's academic ranking have not gone down since they've gotten better in b-ball and football (well, UVA's a bad example there (FB), but... 03-wink... the idea is the same).

In today's world, it has been proven that, with a little creative thinking, you can have high academics and competitive sports. Richmond's administration will have to rethink it's hard line (as should W&M) on numbers, but there is a huge difference between "lowering the school's standards" and changing the question to "can this person handle the job of being a student and an athlete at this school", SAT numbers be damned.

I really thought people on this board were more of the "let's find a way" type, but I, apparently, could be wrong. There's an awful lot of "never change W&M" sentiment on here.

In my opinion, the old way of saying you can't do both, it's impossible at an elite school, is just a handy excuse for those that probably want a Washington & Lee (D-III) type experience at W&M. It's been proven, repeatedly, that it can work, with some effort.

I'm in the "let's explore change" group. Hopefully, the recent For the Bold initiative will open up those same type discussions at W&M, that this power play did at Richmond. If not, maybe we need to go get us a couple of those Donors.

Give 'em hell, billymac, I'm right there with you.
05-11-2017 08:32 PM
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billymac Offline
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Post: #24
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Thanks, GR. I'm afraid I do have a couple hot buttons....
05-11-2017 08:44 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #25
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Well, I hate to disagree with Billy Mac, but I'm in the Richmond has no academic standards camp. Never did ... don't now. Safety school hiding behind some beautiful scenery. :-)

Other than that, I agree with Billy Mac. Just takes one basketball player per year to drastically change things. If the players can do the work, provide them all the academic support in the world. It's a win for the players, the team, and the school.

Georgetown, Duke, and Villanova (all fine schools) can do it, but W&M can't ... never understood it.
05-11-2017 09:01 PM
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tribeintexas Offline
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Post: #26
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Georgetown, Villanova and maybe Duke can do it because they admit basketball players and not student athletes. A lot of former Georgetown, Villanova and maybe Duke players are proof of this.
05-11-2017 09:45 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #27
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-11-2017 04:15 PM)billymac Wrote:  That's just simply not true. It's just the traditional old school W&M response to these type problems.

Actually, that is where the fight is at UR. The Admissions Office hasn't been giving in to the coaches (the Grad transfer that ended up -playing well- at Xavier this season, for example, after being denied at UR).
Their big donors apparently want to work towards a system that is closer to that of some of the eastern elite academic schools (Vandy, UVA, Wake, Northwestern, etc) that seem to be able to get in solid student-athletes and still remain elite. (Something W&M should also keep in mind.) Duke and UVA's academic ranking have not gone down since they've gotten better in b-ball and football (well, UVA's a bad example there (FB), but... 03-wink... the idea is the same).

In today's world, it has been proven that, with a little creative thinking, you can have high academics and competitive sports. Richmond's administration will have to rethink it's hard line (as should W&M) on numbers, but there is a huge difference between "lowering the school's standards" and changing the question to "can this person handle the job of being a student and an athlete at this school", SAT numbers be damned.

I really thought people on this board were more of the "let's find a way" type, but I, apparently, could be wrong. There's an awful lot of "never change W&M" sentiment on here.

In my opinion, the old way of saying you can't do both, it's impossible at an elite school, is just a handy excuse for those that probably want a Washington & Lee (D-III) type experience at W&M. It's been proven, repeatedly, that it can work, with some effort.

I'm in the "let's explore change" group. Hopefully, the recent For the Bold initiative will open up those same type discussions at W&M, that this power play did at Richmond. If not, maybe we need to go get us a couple of those Donors.
Possibly the post of the year but it's only May so don't plan your acceptance speech just yet. The first paragraph really hits home with me...the elitist attitude some cling to as they insist our academic standards cripple our athletics programs. It's just not the case but it's a mighty convenient excuse for our shortcomings on the court and field.

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05-11-2017 09:50 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #28
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-11-2017 09:45 PM)tribeintexas Wrote:  Georgetown, Villanova and maybe Duke can do it because they admit basketball players and not student athletes. A lot of former Georgetown, Villanova and maybe Duke players are proof of this.
Okay, for fun, let's say you're correct about these 3 schools: A high school kid spends more time on the court than the classroom. Turns out, he's 6'6 and can score at will but his grades need help. W&M takes a shot and admits him because he's a baller. He struggles in the classroom at W&M, receives a lot of support, does the best he can, and graduates in 5 years with a C average. Tell me, in what way is that a bad thing? Believe me--because I'm one of them--there are many kids who struggled in HS, somehow gained admission to W&M, struggled at W&M and graduated with something less than a 4.0 average. I can also tell you this, I never forgot that W&M took a chance on me and I will love our school forever for that very reason. By the way, I turned out okay.

In my view, it's admirable to give an underperforming person an opportunity to succeed. Every student has special talents and brings value to our school...just maybe not talents that appeal to some of you.

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05-11-2017 10:10 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Tribal,
that's a solid post and spot on from my experience. I went to our school in the early/mid 80s and played baseball and was in a fraternity. I was surrounded by football, baseball, basketball, soccer, lacrosse players and wrestlers. Most of the scholarship players got in because of sports and not on their own accord. There were exceptions of course, but I can say with certainty that many were not high academic achievers coming out of high school. We also didn't have all of the tutors, study halls and the like. Our athlete drop out rate was low and probably was similar to the overall student population (although I have nothing to back it up). We weren't like UNC by any means, but it wasn't some academic elite ivory tower either. Back then we were an attractive southern liberal arts college with a great history, great reputation, and a great academic and social experience. My dad went to the college in the early 50s and it was nothing close to the academic rigor we have today, and our sports were power houses. So things changed and now we are an academics first school with very little emphasis on athletics compared to academics. You pretty much have to look at the whole time period and not just the last ten years to understand it.

Also, Richmond has rigorous admission standards and the SATs and GPAs required are very similar to ours. Again, Richmond used to be very easy to get into, but not any more.
05-12-2017 05:32 AM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #30
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
One outstanding young man from my area just chose UVA over W&M after touring both and being admitted to both because UVA offered a more life balanced experience in his opinion. Another who did the same with Harvard and W&M and chose Harvard because it had better academics in his opinion.

BillyMac is correct that the For the Bold campaign should lead to more introspection and analysis on what the future direction should be for W&M, and not just the same way of doing things. With increased resources come increased opportunities.

In my opinion we are not an Ivy League school, but a public Ivy and should take that model to heart. I'm not advocating a change in size so much as a change in culture and experience more inline with the public ivies and some of the southern academically oriented private universities.

The public ivies and the southern academically oriented universities stress more of a balance between athletics and academics than the ives and northeastern elite universities do. This is a more inclusive approach should be our guide. I still remember the welcoming speech my freshman year (1971) where the President said that the class could have been filled with all valedictorians and salutatorians, but they strove for more balance. Given that they gave me a shot, I'd like to see others like myself get a shot, not just library moles.

I'd much rather be closer to a UVA, Michigan, UNC (without the scandal), Vanderbilt, Duke or Wake Forest than I would be to a Columbia, Brown, Penn, Princeton, Georgetown, or W&L in our offerings and experience.
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2017 07:06 AM by LeadBolt.)
05-12-2017 07:01 AM
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