Here is how some of the CA colleges mentioned here compare (by enrollment) to existing D1 football schools in the same system:

Cal State Fullerton 40,235
Cal State Northridge 39,916
Long Beach State 37,776
San Diego State (FBS) 34,668
San José State (FBS) 32,154
Sacramento State (FCS) 30,510
Fresno State (FBS) 24,405
Cal Poly SLO (FCS) 21,306

The three schools that dropped football are today all larger than the remaining football schools. I think it would have been fantastic to see a 6-team division made up of just CSUs to compete for some kind of "People's Cup," to really play up the class division of the state higher education system.

To me the biggest potential monkey wrench would be the Big East. Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Temple all joined in 1991 (although Miami was the only one to join as a full member in 1991), plus there was Boston College, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse at the I-A (FBS) level. The Big East could have very well decided to become a I-AA (FCS) conference anchored around Villanova, St. John's, Seton Hall, and Providence. In that case the three I-A schools leave, and the Big East adds independent DePaul, Marquette (Horizon, then the MCC), and possibly Butler and Xavier as well.

The eight founding Big East football schools could have either joined another conference, or created a newnconference altogether. Since Virginia Tech was in the Metro, the path of least resistance would have been Metro starting football in 1991:

Southern Miss
Tulane
Louisville
Cincinnati
Virginia Tech
Memphis
Miami, FL (was set to join Big East)
Boston College
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Temple (football only)
West Virginia (football only)
Rutgers (football only)

Of course with 13 schools it's possible Temple doesn't get an invite, or perhaps a fourth football-only member like East Carolina is invited. There would also be the possibility of Houston joining as #14 when the Southwest Conference collapsed, as they would be the only one remaining of the first six C-USA football members. Charlotte, South Florida, VCU, Old Dominion, and UAB would have likely stayed in the Sun Belt from 1991 onward, and Little Rock would have joined the American South. With the Sun Belt intact for a few more years, no merger with the American South would have taken place until 1995, when VCU and Old Dominion join the CAA:

South Alabama/UAB
Jacksonville/South Florida
WKU/Charlotte
Arkansas State/UALR
UTPA/Lamar
SW Louisiana/Louisiana Tech
New Orleans

It's pssoible the Sun Belt could have also had Saint Louis since there was no Great Midwest, but most likely they stay in the MCC (Horizon). Houston could have also joined especially if they landed a football-only spot in the Metro.

The Sun Belt began sponsoring football in 2001 more or less directly at the expense of the Big West. This likely would have still been the case, as UAB, South Florida, Arkansas State, Northeast Louisiana, and Southwest Louisiana would have been joined by Middle Tennessee, North Texas, and New Mexico State. TCU and Houston would be in the WAC unless if Houston got the 14th Metro spot, in which case Utah State or Idaho replaces them in the WAC.

Of course, the ACC raid begins in 2004. Over two years, the Metro loses Virginia Tech, Miami, and Boston College. The Metro adds TCU to settle at 12 members, down from 14. The WAC adds Idaho.

The Metro then has the wheels come off in 2012 as TCU and West Virginia leave for the Big 12 and are replaced by South Florida and Central Florida; the Sun Belt adds independents FAU and FIU. Pittsburgh and Syracuse head to the ACC in 2013 and are replaced by SMU and Houston. Louisville then leaves for the ACC and is replaced by Marshall. Rutgers leaves for the Big Ten and is replaced by Connecticut, who leaves MAC football and the Big East for all other sports. The Sun Belt adds Rice. Charlotte, Western Kentucky, and South Alabama all transition to FBS in the Sun Belt.

With the Metro effectively having taken the place of both the Big East and Conference USA, the WAC comes out in much better shape:

Idaho/UTEP
UTSA/Texas State
Louisiana Tech/Tulsa

The WAC refocuses as a southeastern-based league, adding Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Old Domion, App State, and Coastal Carolina. Idaho eventually moves to FCS.

(04-22-2017 01:29 PM)Shox Wrote:  In the exact opposite of this thread, one of if not the biggest loser for having a football program that is historically awful is New Mexico. If they had an ECU/BYU type program they would be a slam dunk for either the PAC or Big XII.

I've said that many times. New Mexico founded conferences with Texas Tech, Utah, BYU, Arizona and Arizona St. (Border, WAC, MWC) They've seen their peers move up and despite being a flagship research (R1VH;Carnegie) school with a national prominent basketball arena and a 40k football stadium, they just can't seem to put together a few really good football seasons to get them over the hump.

(04-22-2017 02:17 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  To me the biggest potential monkey wrench would be the Big East. Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Temple all joined in 1991 (although Miami was the only one to join as a full member in 1991), plus there was Boston College, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse at the I-A (FBS) level. The Big East could have very well decided to become a I-AA (FCS) conference anchored around Villanova, St. John's, Seton Hall, and Providence. In that case the three I-A schools leave, and the Big East adds independent DePaul, Marquette (Horizon, then the MCC), and possibly Butler and Xavier as well.

The eight founding Big East football schools could have either joined another conference, or created a newnconference altogether. Since Virginia Tech was in the Metro, the path of least resistance would have been Metro starting football in 1991:

Southern Miss
Tulane
Louisville
Cincinnati
Virginia Tech
Memphis
Miami, FL (was set to join Big East)
Boston College
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Temple (football only)
West Virginia (football only)
Rutgers (football only)

Of course with 13 schools it's possible Temple doesn't get an invite, or perhaps a fourth football-only member like East Carolina is invited. There would also be the possibility of Houston joining as #14 when the Southwest Conference collapsed, as they would be the only one remaining of the first six C-USA football members. Charlotte, South Florida, VCU, Old Dominion, and UAB would have likely stayed in the Sun Belt from 1991 onward, and Little Rock would have joined the American South. With the Sun Belt intact for a few more years, no merger with the American South would have taken place until 1995, when VCU and Old Dominion join the CAA:

South Alabama/UAB
Jacksonville/South Florida
WKU/Charlotte
Arkansas State/UALR
UTPA/Lamar
SW Louisiana/Louisiana Tech
New Orleans

It's pssoible the Sun Belt could have also had Saint Louis since there was no Great Midwest, but most likely they stay in the MCC (Horizon). Houston could have also joined especially if they landed a football-only spot in the Metro.

The Sun Belt began sponsoring football in 2001 more or less directly at the expense of the Big West. This likely would have still been the case, as UAB, South Florida, Arkansas State, Northeast Louisiana, and Southwest Louisiana would have been joined by Middle Tennessee, North Texas, and New Mexico State. TCU and Houston would be in the WAC unless if Houston got the 14th Metro spot, in which case Utah State or Idaho replaces them in the WAC.

Of course, the ACC raid begins in 2004. Over two years, the Metro loses Virginia Tech, Miami, and Boston College. The Metro adds TCU to settle at 12 members, down from 14. The WAC adds Idaho.

The Metro then has the wheels come off in 2012 as TCU and West Virginia leave for the Big 12 and are replaced by South Florida and Central Florida; the Sun Belt adds independents FAU and FIU. Pittsburgh and Syracuse head to the ACC in 2013 and are replaced by SMU and Houston. Louisville then leaves for the ACC and is replaced by Marshall. Rutgers leaves for the Big Ten and is replaced by Connecticut, who leaves MAC football and the Big East for all other sports. The Sun Belt adds Rice. Charlotte, Western Kentucky, and South Alabama all transition to FBS in the Sun Belt.

With the Metro effectively having taken the place of both the Big East and Conference USA, the WAC comes out in much better shape:

Idaho/UTEP
UTSA/Texas State
Louisiana Tech/Tulsa

The WAC refocuses as a southeastern-based league, adding Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Old Domion, App State, and Coastal Carolina. Idaho eventually moves to FCS.

The question is if West Texas A&M stayed in D1 for all sports? Would they have gotten an invite to the WAC when the MWC split? They did have an off-campus stadium that seats 20,000 which they could have filled under the FBS rules to have 15,000 average to stay in FBS. One game back in early 2000, they had a game with a Lone Star foe, and they smash that record for how many people showed up. It was like 1000 to 2000 more people than what the capacity of the stadium is said to hold. I think for fire hazard safety for most schools? They fudged the numbers to be in compliance when in fact, the stadiums could hold more.

Cal-San Diego could be interesting one. Since they are blocked from becoming D1 and WAC might have Long Beach State, Fullerton State and some others where the WAC could still have football.

New Mexico State
Idaho
West Texas A&M
Long Beach State
Pacific
Fullerton State

Could this group or pairings could actually get other schools to join?
Sacramento State
Cal.-Davis
Cal. Poly
Lamar
UTRGV later on.
Weber State
Portland State

This group could be FBS level still and Utah Valley, Seattle, Grand Canyon, UMKC, Denver, Cal. Baptist and others would not have been invites.

If the Big West schools didn't drop from FBS, the Big West would have effectively become the Great West. Schools like Seattle, Utah Valley, and CSU Bakersfield who transitioned as independents would have joined the Big West as there would have been few, if any, viable alternatives for either side. Grand Canyon probably wouldn't get an invite due to UC/CSU system politics, but it's also possible a school like Southern Utah would have never joined the Mid-Continent (now Summit) and would have joined the Big West. Maybe that works out for UCSD, but so far they haven't been willing to commit to Division I outside of the Big West, and a Big West without Long Beach is much closer to the WAC than the Big West would care to admit.

The new FBS schools in the south would likely be out of luck, although we would effectively know of six schools who would be seeking a waiver - Liberty, Old Dominion, App State, Coastal Carolina, Georgia State, and Georgia Southern. Maybe the CAA orchestrates a few trades to accept the entire group, then take James Madison and Delaware to get to eight members.

Im enjoying this game of college football counterfactuals.

I forgot about Chicago State. They would have been homeless as well.

Plus, North Texas might not have joined Sun Belt Conference, but join up with the other Texas schools in the WAC.

Here what the split looks like when the split happened.

Hawaii
Fresno State
TCU
Rice
SMU
Tulsa
San Jose State
Nevada joins in 2000.

TCU leaves in 2001.
Boise State joins 2001.
La. Tech joins 2001.

Hawaii
Fresno State
Nevada
Tulsa
Rice
SMU
San Jose State
Boise State
La. Tech

Rice SMU and Tulsa left in 2005.

Utah State Idaho and New Mexico State joined.

West Texas A&M would be in the mixed between 1996 and 2005 if they stayed in D1.


San Jose State
Boise State
La. Tech
Hawaii
Fresno State
Nevada
Idaho
New Mexico State
Utah State
West Texas A&M
UTSA
Texas State

Affiliates who could have been FBS member or still had football. Or schools added football,
Southern Utah
Sacramento State
Northridge State
Cal. Poly
Grand Canyon U. adds football
Hawaii-Hilo adds football
Drury adds football
Northern Arizona
University of San Diego goes full scholarship.
Fullerton State
North Dakota
Denver adds football.
Dallas Baptist adds football.
Cal. State- Bakersfield adds football.
Northern Colorado
Houston Baptist
Seattle U. adds football
UTRGV adds football.
UTA adds football.
Chicago State adds football.
UMKC adds football.
Utah Valley adds football.
Cal. Baptist adds football when they join.

Great West could still be in play with these schools.

Seattle U.
Utah Valley
UTRGV
Cal. State-Bakersfield
Chicago State
New Jersey Tech
Grand Canyon
Cal. Baptist
Southern Utah Big Sky for football.
Dallas Baptist
Drury
Denver

UMKC would still be in the Summit.

Just want to be clear about this... "Metro State" (Denver) never has had football above the "club" level and is forbidden by their charter to ever sponsor variety FB.

So, just take them off your list.

(04-22-2017 09:51 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  I am going to prune David's list to schools that are currently in Division I:



American University - Patriot League
Little Rock - Sun Belt
Boston U. - Patriot League
Bradley - Pioneer League
Fullerton State - Big West
Long Beach State - Big West
Northridge State - Big West
Cal.-Riverside - Big West
Cal.-Santa Barbara - Big West
Canisius - MAAC
College of Charleston - CAA
Creighton - Big East
Denver - Pioneer League
DePaul - Big East
Detroit - Pioneer League
Drexel - CAA
Evansville - Pioneer League
Fairfield - MAAC
George Washington - Atlantic 10
Gonzaga - West Coast
High Point - Big South
Hofstra - CAA
Illinois-Chicago - Pioneer League
Iona - MAAC
La Salle - Pioneer League
Long Island - Northeast
Loyola Marymount - West Coast
Loyola-Chicago - Pioneer League
Loyola-Maryland - Patriot League
Manhattan - MAAC
Marquette - Big East
Maryland-Eastern Shore
Mount Saint Mary's
Niagara - Pioneer League
UNC-Asheville - Big South
Pacific - West Coast
Pepperdine - West Coast
Portland - West Coast
Providence - Big East
Rider - MAAC
Saint Bonaventure - Atlantic 10
St. Francis NY - Northeast
St. John's NY - Big East
Saint Joseph's - Atlantic 10
Saint Louis - Atlantic 10
St. Mary's, California - West Coast
Saint Peter's - MAAC
U. of San Francisco - West Coast
Santa Clara - West Coast
Seton Hall - Big East (FCS conference)
Siena - MAAC
Texas A&M-Corpus Christi - Southland
UTA - Sun Belt
UTRGV - WAC
Vermont - America East (split from CAA)
Wichita State - MVFC
Milwaukee - Pioneer League
Xavier, Ohio - Big East (FCS conference)
California Baptist - Big Sky (football only)

For the "new" conferences:
America East - Albany, Maine, Monmouth (football only), New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Stony Brook, Vermont
Atlantic 10 - Dayton (upgrades from Pioneer League), George Washington, Rhode Island, Richmond, Saint Bonaventure, Saint Joseph's, Saint Louis
Big East - Butler (updgrades from Pioneer League), Creighton, DePaul, Marquette, Providence, Saint John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Xavier
Big West - Cal Poly, Fullerton State, Long Beach State, Northridge State, UC-Riverside, UC-Santa Barbara, UC Davis
MAAC (non-scholarship) - Canisius, Fairfield, Iona, Manhattan, Niagara, Rider, Siena
West Coast (non-scholarship) - Gonzaga, Loyola Marymount, Pacific, Pepperdine, Portland, Saint Mary's, San Diego, San Francisco, Santa Clara

if PC, Seton Hall, STJ and Nova all maintained FB would the BE ever have split? Would they have expanded to include West Virginia,Miami etc ? would BC and Syracuse still have left? Would Pitt have been invited? Likely PSU would have been. Would Rutgers and temple have said yes instead of no when first invited? If so , Nova and Seton Hall would not have been. Discuss

(04-22-2017 08:08 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  if PC, Seton Hall, STJ and Nova all maintained FB would the BE ever have split? Would they have expanded to include West Virginia,Miami etc ? would BC and Syracuse still have left? Would Pitt have been invited? Likely PSU would have been. Would Rutgers and temple have said yes instead of no when first invited? If so , Nova and Seton Hall would not have been. Discuss

If those four had I-A status as the Big East formed, it certainly would have helped. The Metro and Great Midwest conferences would have likely formed like they did in real life, and it still would have given birth to Conference USA. The challenge would have been would a Big East with Providence and Seton Hall playing I-A football been an AQ conference in the BCS? It is quite possible the 16-team Big East at its height - with 12 playing football in the conference - would have stayed intact, and would probably look something like this today:

West - Cincinnati, Memphis, South Florida, Central Florida, SMU, Houston
East - Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Connecticut, Temple

Conference USA gets back East Carolina, Tulane, and Tulsa. The WAC gets back UTSA and Louisiana Tech, allowing it a faint chance to rebuild. Old Dominion transitions as the 10th member of the Sun Belt, and Coastal Carolina has to wait for an opening.

Unless if someone throws a boatload of money at the Atlantic 10, Georgetown, DePaul, and Marquette stay in the Big East (and probably invite Butler to be #16). Of course if DePaul and Marquette are FBS, then we probably send SMU and Houston back to C-USA, North Texas back to the Sun Belt, and Texas State back to the WAC.

(04-22-2017 08:43 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 08:08 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  if PC, Seton Hall, STJ and Nova all maintained FB would the BE ever have split? Would they have expanded to include West Virginia,Miami etc ? would BC and Syracuse still have left? Would Pitt have been invited? Likely PSU would have been. Would Rutgers and temple have said yes instead of no when first invited? If so , Nova and Seton Hall would not have been. Discuss

If those four had I-A status as the Big East formed, it certainly would have helped. The Metro and Great Midwest conferences would have likely formed like they did in real life, and it still would have given birth to Conference USA. The challenge would have been would a Big East with Providence and Seton Hall playing I-A football been an AQ conference in the BCS? It is quite possible the 16-team Big East at its height - with 12 playing football in the conference - would have stayed intact, and would probably look something like this today:

West - Cincinnati, Memphis, South Florida, Central Florida, SMU, Houston
East - St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Connecticut, Temple

Conference USA gets back East Carolina, Tulane, and Tulsa. The WAC gets back UTSA and Louisiana Tech, allowing it a faint chance to rebuild. Old Dominion transitions as the 10th member of the Sun Belt, and Coastal Carolina has to wait for an opening.

Unless if someone throws a boatload of money at the Atlantic 10, Georgetown, DePaul, and Marquette stay in the Big East (and probably invite Butler to be #16). Of course if DePaul and Marquette are FBS, then we probably send SMU and Houston back to C-USA, North Texas back to the Sun Belt, and Texas State back to the WAC.

You have St. John's down twice. Did you mean either Georgetown of Villanova?

1900s to 1996 time period if schools did not moved from years ago.

Big 10 Possible Outcome.
Michigan f
Lake Forest College could have been a co-founder.
Illinois f
University of Chicago f
Northwestern f
Minnesota f
Indiana joined 1899
Purdue f
Penn. State joined 1990
Wisconsin f
Iowa joined 1899
Ohio State joined 1912

Michigan State could be lock out of the Big 10 as Indepents.

Big 12;
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Colorado
Nebraska
Kansas
Kansas State
Grinnell
Iowa State
Missouri
Washington, MO.
BYU
Drake

New Mexico and BYU gets in because of the headaches of the politics when Texas and Texas A&M as number 11 and 12, but they have to add Texas Tech and Baylor as well. Since they were at 10 with the two who did not dropped down to D3, it would have given the Big 12 with 14 with 4 Texas schools. So, they went with the backup and grabbed BYU and NEW Mexico from the WAC.

SWC still intact:
Texas
Texas Tech
TCU
Baylor
Houston
Rice
Texas A&M
Southwestern
Phillips


SEC:
South Carolina
Arkansas
LSU
Tennessee
Vanderbilt
Kentucky
Ole Miss.
Mississippi State
Alabama
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Sewanee
Tulane

ACC:
Georgia Tech
Florida State
Clemson
Duke
North Carolina
NC State
Wake Forest
Virginia
Maryland
Washington and Lee

Big East:
Boston College
UConn.
Georgetown
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Syracuse
Villanova
Pittsburgh
Miami, Flo.
Rutgers
West Virginia
Temple
Virginia Tech

Not showing up in the Big East.
DePaul
Cincinnati
Louisville
Marquette
South Florida
Loyola, MD. yet.

C-USA:
Cincinnati
DePaul
Louisville
Marquette
Saint Louis
South Florida
Southern Mississippi
UAB
Memphis

MAC:
Wayne State, Mich.
Butler
Case Western Reserves
Ohio U.
Miami, Ohio
Western Michigan
Toledo
Kent State
Bowling Green
Marshall
Central Michigan
Eastern Michigan
Ball State
NIU
Akron

Buffalo, UCF and UMass would have troubles getting into MAC as it is full.

PAC 12:
Idaho
Montana
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
California
Stanford
USC
UCLA
Arizona
Arizona State

Sun Belt Conference:
Jacksonville
Old Dominion
Western Kentucky
Arkansas State
Little Rock
UCF
Lamar
La. Tech
La.-Lafayette
UTRGV

WAC:
Utah
Wyoming
Hawaii
San Diego State
UNLV
Colorado State
UTEP
Air Force
New Mexico
Fresno State
San Jose State

None of the SWC schools would have joined, and no MWC would have formed.

MVC:
Creighton
Tulsa
Washburn
Wichita State
Bradley
Detroit Mercy
North Texas
New Mexico State
West Texas A&M
Southern Illinois
Indiana State
Illinois State
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Evansville


Big West:
Cal. State- L.A.
Pacific
Cal.-Santa Barbara
Long Beach State
Fullerton State
Utah State
UNR
Boise State
Cal. Poly

Southern Conference:
VMI
George Washington
Richmond
William & Mary
The Citadel
Davidson
Furman
Appalachian State
Chattanooga
Western Carolina
Georgia Southern
East Tennessee State


Southland:
Trinity, Texas
Abilene Christian
UTA
McNeese State
La.-Monroe
Texas State
NW State Louisiana
Sam Houston State
SFA
Nichols State
Troy
Jacksonville State


Independents:
Army
Notre Dame
Colgate
East Carolina
Holy Cross
Navy
Tennessee State
Bucknell
Buffalo
Delaware
James Madison
Lafayette
Lehigh
Niagara
Northeastern
Maine
Boston U.
New Hampshire
Vermont
Siena
CCSU
Drexel
Hofstra
OKCU
UTRGV
Hardin-Simmons
Centenary, LA
College of Charleston
Duquesne
UMass.
St. Bonaventure
URI
Saint Joseph PA
Xavier
Michigan State is if that Lake Forest was one of the co-founders.
Denver
Santa Clara Big West
University of San Francisco Big West
Saint Mary's Big West
Loyola Marymount Big West
Pepperdine
Portland
Gonzaga Big Sky


Catholic U. Independent
Birmingham Southern
Centenary LA
Cal.-Riverside
NYU
University of Baltimore
Brooklyn
California Baptist
Colorado College
University of District Columbia
Morris Brown
University of Tampa
Texas Wesleyan University
Johns Hopkins if they stayed in D1, and build their football stadium? They could get an invite for all sports in the Big 10.
Carnegie Mellon
Bentley
Assumption
Northern Michigan University
West Chester University
Angelo State
CalTech
Centre College
Carnegie Mellon
Fordham
Grambling State
Haskell
Jackson State
Loyola-Chicago
Manhattan
Merchant Marine
New Hampshire
Northern Arizona
Tampa
Texas Southern
Washington & Jefferson
Catawba
Maryville, TN.
Sul Ross State
Saint Vincent
Emory & Henry
Stetson
Texas A&M-Commerce
Omaha won a bowl game
Eastern Kentucky
Junita
Missouri Valley
Middle Tennessee State
Presbyterian
Tennessee Tech
Coast Guard 1963 bowl game that they lost to Western Kentucky
Tennessee–Martin
Morgan State
Fort Worth Classic 1921 Centre College 63 TCU 7
West Virginia Wesleyan won the Dixie Bowl which was the forerunner of the Cotton Bowl.
Central Arkansas lost to Fresno State in the 1937 Charity Bowl by 27 to 26.
Redlands
Arkansas–Monticello lost to La.-Lafayette in the 1944 Oil Bowl.
Occidental beat Colorado State in the 1949 Raisin Bowl
Ouachita Baptist
West Alabama
Eastern New Mexico Greyhounds
Tarleton State Texans
Kentucky State
Virginia State
Wiley
Central State
Tuskegee
Texas College
Lincoln
Virginia Union
Maryland-Eastern Shore
Langston
Clark Atlanta
Simmons College of Kentucky dropped sports, but are now re-adding them.
Milligan
Carson–Newman
Hanover
Charleston (WV)
Lebanon Valley
Johnson C. Smith
Allen (SC)
Parsons (IA) closed
Central Missouri State
Bates
Rollins
St. Thomas
Wisconsin–La Crosse
Valparaiso
Lenoir-Rhyne
Emporia State beat Missouri State in the Missouri-Kansas Bowl
Hillsdale
Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties
College of Idaho Coyotes
Catawba
West Liberty
California (PA)
Clarion
Louisiana College
Newberry
Widener was Pennsylvania Military College
Indiana (PA)
C.W. Post (NY)
Muskingum
Randolph–Macon
Bridgeport
Hampden–Sydney
Montclair State
Slippery Rock








I added schools that have appeared in bowl games as part of the equations.

Gallaudet plays DIII football. It's a very interesting game if you ever get a chance to watch it.

Gallaudet is a school for the deaf. They use a huge drum to start the play. In a variation of the variation of cadence to draw the other team offside they will some times go on the first bang of the drum, sometimes 2nd or 3rd. However, they are very disciplined. I didn't see them jump offside on defense or offense.

(04-23-2017 05:13 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  1900s to 1996 time period if schools did not moved from years ago.

Big 10 Possible Outcome.
Michigan f
Lake Forest College could have been a co-founder.
Illinois f
University of Chicago f
Northwestern f
Minnesota f
Indiana joined 1899
Purdue f
Penn. State joined 1990
Wisconsin f
Iowa joined 1899
Ohio State joined 1912

Michigan State could be lock out of the Big 10 as Indepents.

Big 12;
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Colorado
Nebraska
Kansas
Kansas State
Grinnell
Iowa State
Missouri
Washington, MO.
BYU
Drake

New Mexico and BYU gets in because of the headaches of the politics when Texas and Texas A&M as number 11 and 12, but they have to add Texas Tech and Baylor as well. Since they were at 10 with the two who did not dropped down to D3, it would have given the Big 12 with 14 with 4 Texas schools. So, they went with the backup and grabbed BYU and NEW Mexico from the WAC.

SWC still intact:
Texas
Texas Tech
TCU
Baylor
Houston
Rice
Texas A&M
Southwestern
Phillips


SEC:
South Carolina
Arkansas
South Carolina
LSU
Tennessee
Vanderbilt
Kentucky
Ole Miss.
Mississippi State
Alabama
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Sewanee
Tulane

ACC:
Georgia Tech
Florida State
Clemson
Duke
North Carolina
NC State
Wake Forest
Virginia
Maryland
Washington and Lee

Big East:
Boston College
UConn.
Georgetown
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Syracuse
Villanova
Pittsburgh
Miami, Flo.
Rutgers
West Virginia
Temple
Virginia Tech

Not showing up in the Big East.
DePaul
Cincinnati
Louisville
Marquette
South Florida
Loyola, MD. yet.

C-USA:
Cincinnati
DePaul
Louisville
Marquette
Saint Louis
South Florida
Southern Mississippi
UAB
Memphis

MAC:
Wayne State, Mich.
Butler
Case Western Reserves
Ohio U.
Miami, Ohio
Western Michigan
Toledo
Kent State
Bowling Green
Marshall
Central Michigan
Eastern Michigan
Ball State
NIU
Akron

Buffalo, UCF and UMass would have troubles getting into MAC as it is full.

PAC 12:
Idaho
Montana
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
California
Stanford
USC
UCLA
Arizona
Arizona State

Sun Belt Conference:
Jacksonville
Old Dominion
Western Kentucky
Arkansas State
Little Rock
UCF
Lamar
La. Tech
La.-Lafayette
UTRGV

WAC:
Utah
Wyoming
Hawaii
San Diego State
UNLV
Colorado State
UTEP
Air Force
New Mexico
Fresno State
San Jose State

None of the SWC schools would have joined, and no MWC would have formed.

MVC:
Creighton
Tulsa
Washburn
Wichita State
Bradley
Detroit Mercy
North Texas
New Mexico State
West Texas A&M
Southern Illinois
Indiana State
Illinois State
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Evansville


Big West:
Cal. State- L.A.
Pacific
Cal.-Santa Barbara
Long Beach State
Fullerton State
Utah State
UNR
Boise State
Cal. Poly

Southern Conference:
VMI
George Washington
Richmond
William & Mary
The Citadel
Davidson
Furman
Appalachian State
Chattanooga
Western Carolina
Georgia Southern
East Tennessee State


Southland:
Trinity, Texas
Abilene Christian
UTA
McNeese State
La.-Monroe
Texas State
NW State Louisiana
Sam Houston State
SFA
Nichols State
Troy
Jacksonville State


Independents:
Army
Notre Dame
Colgate
East Carolina
Holy Cross
Navy
Tennessee State
Bucknell
Buffalo
Delaware
James Madison
Lafayette
Lehigh
Niagara
Northeastern
Maine
Boston U.
New Hampshire
Vermont
Siena
CCSU
Drexel
Hofstra
OKCU
UTRGV
Hardin-Simmons
Centenary, LA
College of Charleston
Duquesne
UMass.
St. Bonaventure
URI
Saint Joseph PA
Xavier
Michigan State is if that Lake Forest was one of the co-founders.
Denver
Santa Clara Big West
University of San Francisco Big West
Saint Mary's Big West
Loyola Marymount Big West
Pepperdine
Portland
Gonzaga Big Sky


Catholic U. Independent
Birmingham Southern
Centenary LA
Cal.-Riverside
NYU
University of Baltimore
Brooklyn
California Baptist
Colorado College
University of District Columbia
Morris Brown
University of Tampa
Texas Wesleyan University
Johns Hopkins if they stayed in D1, and build their football stadium? They could get an invite for all sports in the Big 10.
Carnegie Mellon
Bentley
Assumption
Northern Michigan University
West Chester University
Angelo State
CalTech
Centre College
Carnegie Mellon
Fordham
Grambling State
Haskell
Jackson State
Loyola-Chicago
Manhattan
Merchant Marine
New Hampshire
Northern Arizona
Tampa
Texas Southern
Washington & Jefferson
Catawba
Maryville, TN.
Sul Ross State
Saint Vincent
Emory & Henry
Stetson
Texas A&M-Commerce
Omaha won a bowl game
Eastern Kentucky
Junita
Missouri Valley
Middle Tennessee State
Presbyterian
Tennessee Tech
Coast Guard 1963 bowl game that they lost to Western Kentucky
Tennessee–Martin
Morgan State
Fort Worth Classic 1921 Centre College 63 TCU 7
West Virginia Wesleyan won the Dixie Bowl which was the forerunner of the Cotton Bowl.
Central Arkansas lost to Fresno State in the 1937 Charity Bowl by 27 to 26.
Redlands
Arkansas–Monticello lost to La.-Lafayette in the 1944 Oil Bowl.
Occidental beat Colorado State in the 1949 Raisin Bowl
Ouachita Baptist
West Alabama
Eastern New Mexico Greyhounds
Tarleton State Texans
Kentucky State
Virginia State
Wiley
Central State
Tuskegee
Texas College
Lincoln
Virginia Union
Maryland-Eastern Shore
Langston
Clark Atlanta
Simmons College of Kentucky dropped sports, but are now re-adding them.
Milligan
Carson–Newman
Hanover
Charleston (WV)
Lebanon Valley
Johnson C. Smith
Allen (SC)
Parsons (IA) closed
Central Missouri State
Bates
Rollins
St. Thomas
Wisconsin–La Crosse
Valparaiso
Lenoir-Rhyne
Emporia State beat Missouri State in the Missouri-Kansas Bowl
Hillsdale
Gustavus Adolphus Golden Gusties
College of Idaho Coyotes
Catawba
West Liberty
California (PA)
Clarion
Louisiana College
Newberry
Widener was Pennsylvania Military College
Indiana (PA)
C.W. Post (NY)
Muskingum
Randolph–Macon
Bridgeport
Hampden–Sydney
Montclair State
Slippery Rock








I added schools that have appeared in bowl games as part of the equations.

Georgia Tech was in the SEC until the mid 1960's. Also you have South Carolina listed twice in the SEC.

Had my alma mater, George Washington, not dropped football, we would be playing in the Patriot League or the DIII Landmark Conference.

(04-22-2017 02:17 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  To me the biggest potential monkey wrench would be the Big East. Miami, Rutgers, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Temple all joined in 1991 (although Miami was the only one to join as a full member in 1991), plus there was Boston College, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse at the I-A (FBS) level. The Big East could have very well decided to become a I-AA (FCS) conference anchored around Villanova, St. John's, Seton Hall, and Providence. In that case the three I-A schools leave, and the Big East adds independent DePaul, Marquette (Horizon, then the MCC), and possibly Butler and Xavier as well.

The eight founding Big East football schools could have either joined another conference, or created a newnconference altogether. Since Virginia Tech was in the Metro, the path of least resistance would have been Metro starting football in 1991:

Southern Miss
Tulane
Louisville
Cincinnati
Virginia Tech
Memphis
Miami, FL (was set to join Big East)
Boston College
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Temple (football only)
West Virginia (football only)
Rutgers (football only)

Of course with 13 schools it's possible Temple doesn't get an invite, or perhaps a fourth football-only member like East Carolina is invited. There would also be the possibility of Houston joining as #14 when the Southwest Conference collapsed, as they would be the only one remaining of the first six C-USA football members. Charlotte, South Florida, VCU, Old Dominion, and UAB would have likely stayed in the Sun Belt from 1991 onward, and Little Rock would have joined the American South. With the Sun Belt intact for a few more years, no merger with the American South would have taken place until 1995, when VCU and Old Dominion join the CAA:

South Alabama/UAB
Jacksonville/South Florida
WKU/Charlotte
Arkansas State/UALR
UTPA/Lamar
SW Louisiana/Louisiana Tech
New Orleans

It's pssoible the Sun Belt could have also had Saint Louis since there was no Great Midwest, but most likely they stay in the MCC (Horizon). Houston could have also joined especially if they landed a football-only spot in the Metro.

The Sun Belt began sponsoring football in 2001 more or less directly at the expense of the Big West. This likely would have still been the case, as UAB, South Florida, Arkansas State, Northeast Louisiana, and Southwest Louisiana would have been joined by Middle Tennessee, North Texas, and New Mexico State. TCU and Houston would be in the WAC unless if Houston got the 14th Metro spot, in which case Utah State or Idaho replaces them in the WAC.

Of course, the ACC raid begins in 2004. Over two years, the Metro loses Virginia Tech, Miami, and Boston College. The Metro adds TCU to settle at 12 members, down from 14. The WAC adds Idaho.

The Metro then has the wheels come off in 2012 as TCU and West Virginia leave for the Big 12 and are replaced by South Florida and Central Florida; the Sun Belt adds independents FAU and FIU. Pittsburgh and Syracuse head to the ACC in 2013 and are replaced by SMU and Houston. Louisville then leaves for the ACC and is replaced by Marshall. Rutgers leaves for the Big Ten and is replaced by Connecticut, who leaves MAC football and the Big East for all other sports. The Sun Belt adds Rice. Charlotte, Western Kentucky, and South Alabama all transition to FBS in the Sun Belt.

With the Metro effectively having taken the place of both the Big East and Conference USA, the WAC comes out in much better shape:

Idaho/UTEP
UTSA/Texas State
Louisiana Tech/Tulsa

The WAC refocuses as a southeastern-based league, adding Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Old Domion, App State, and Coastal Carolina. Idaho eventually moves to FCS.

No way does the Big East add Midwestern schools, not in the 80's and 90's. Notre Dame was an exception but the Big East saw itself as a Northeastern Catholic association and the only public schools that stood a shot at an invite had to be in a state that at least bordered one that was on the coast.

As for everything else, you just don't know what else what have changed and what dominoes would have changed. How does the creation of the BCS factor in for example?

I put MVC, Southland and Southern as FBS conferences since they had the most schools in the FBS.

The question is would the ACC be able to raid the Big East football members back in 2001 and onwards?

Would the Big 10 be able to grab Nebraska, Maryland or Maryland?

Could Lake Forest joined as a founding member be able to kept Michigan State from joining which the Spartans be stuck in a G5 conference?

Were would Buffalo, UMASS., FAU, FIU and others be?

Be interesting to see more FCS conferences formed from all these other schools.

Yankee Conference was considered a major conference at one point.

But, what could the future of the FBS would look like if more schools added to the P5 status?

my guess that even if PC and Seton Hall kept playing FB the conferences would be pretty much what we see today. Those 2 would most likely be on the level of Villanova or Georgetown rather than BC and Syracuse in FB. Penn St still would not have been looked at when the BE was formed due to BB. Therefore Rutgers and Temple still would have declined. Considering PC and Seton Hall were in favor of adding PSU later on and the 3 no votes were from schools that played some level of FB (Nova, st j and Georgetown) the outcome would have likely been the same. no psu. the other expansion dominos would have likely fallen in place as the BE realized it needed FB members. Maybe Rutgers would have been FB only instead of Virginia tech? Even if PC and seton hall upgraded their fb programs to level of BC those 2 would likely be in the AAC. if they maintained fcs like the rest of the current BE we would probably see BE sponsored FB. Assuming that the rest of athletics at the current BE would be at same level as they are today and what level their FB programs were at , the Midwestern teams could very well still be included

(04-23-2017 02:35 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  As for everything else, you just don't know what else what have changed and what dominoes would have changed. How does the creation of the BCS factor in for example?

The AQ/P5 conferences have always had at least a simple majority of the membership in FBS. Obviously the AQ conferences would have to be in sufficient number (which bodes well for the Big East or Metro), or the other conferences have to consolidate themselves past the post - which is what we saw when the ACC, SEC, and B1G all went to 14 to bring the P5 to a total of 65 schools (including Notre Dame as part of the ACC). The Pac 12 and Big 12 would probably keep hitting up the Mountain West/Metro/Big East pool until they reached whatever number they needed to obtain a majority.

Ironically, Idaho dropping down helps offset Liberty moving up - the P5 will still have 65 out of 130 spots in FBS. Part of the emphasis on autonomy for the P5 conferences is to protect their position in the event they become a minority. The CFP contract is also setup to be a disincentive to expansion - the Sun Belt could invite 20 schools to FBS tomorrow, but they won't see a single cent extra from the CFP.

I'm not gonna tackle all of those but it's interesting to note how a few would alter history.

If Gonzaga never dropped football and built a basketball program like they did today, they'd very possibly be in the Mountain West. If Creighton never dropped football, I think they'd have been in the WAC-16, then C-USA then, If history stays the same more or less, the American. If they don't go FBS, then the Gateway/MVFC would be where they'd go.

DePaul would have been in the original C-USA, on to the Big East and then possibly to the ACC if the stars align right. Same for Marquette. In turn, TCU never leaves the WAC-16 and possibly just leaves there to go to the MWC. Army also never joins original C-USA. ECU may have never join C-USA until their American peers form that league or perhaps as the Big East schools go there.