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Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-24-2017 05:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 12:55 PM)Bronco85 Wrote:  If UI had been able to find its way back into the PCC/AAWU/PAC as WSU, UO, and OSU did (and state politics in Washington and Oregon played a significant role)

The population of those states was a huge factor even in the 1960s and still is now.

Population, 1960 and 2010
Idaho 667,191 / 1,567,582
Oregon 1,768,687 / 3,831,074
Washington 2,853,214 / 6,724,540

There's a good argument that Wazzu got in the AAWU in the 1960s because of in-state political pressure, but if Wazzu was "out", Idaho still wouldn't be in.

Well, then what year did Idaho and Montana get into the first version of the PAC 8? I'm assuming population difference was pretty big then too....
04-24-2017 05:58 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
Interesting note: When the WAC was being created by Utah and BYU in the early 60's, they invited Wyoming out of the Mountain States Conference and Arizona, Arizona St and New Mexico out of the Border to join the talks. They also invited some of the Washington and Oregon schools who passed in the end for the PAC 8. Did Idaho and Montana make a push to join the WAC? Were they not invited?
04-24-2017 06:02 PM
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billings Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-24-2017 06:02 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Interesting note: When the WAC was being created by Utah and BYU in the early 60's, they invited Wyoming out of the Mountain States Conference and Arizona, Arizona St and New Mexico out of the Border to join the talks. They also invited some of the Washington and Oregon schools who passed in the end for the PAC 8. Did Idaho and Montana make a push to join the WAC? Were they not invited?


They were not invited
04-24-2017 07:44 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-24-2017 07:44 PM)billings Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 06:02 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Interesting note: When the WAC was being created by Utah and BYU in the early 60's, they invited Wyoming out of the Mountain States Conference and Arizona, Arizona St and New Mexico out of the Border to join the talks. They also invited some of the Washington and Oregon schools who passed in the end for the PAC 8. Did Idaho and Montana make a push to join the WAC? Were they not invited?


They were not invited

Ok. The WAC story is a great one. I always try to get as much new info on that story as I can.
04-24-2017 07:48 PM
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billings Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-24-2017 07:48 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 07:44 PM)billings Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 06:02 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Interesting note: When the WAC was being created by Utah and BYU in the early 60's, they invited Wyoming out of the Mountain States Conference and Arizona, Arizona St and New Mexico out of the Border to join the talks. They also invited some of the Washington and Oregon schools who passed in the end for the PAC 8. Did Idaho and Montana make a push to join the WAC? Were they not invited?


They were not invited

Ok. The WAC story is a great one. I always try to get as much new info on that story as I can.

Utah State and New Mexico State applied to be WAC founding members with the six you mention and both were turned down and not invited.

I don't think Idaho or montana applied to be members nor were they invited
04-24-2017 08:06 PM
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LatahCounty Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
Yeah, I don't believe we were anywhere near the WAC. I'm not sure why. Our first big chance to escape the Big Sky came in the early '70s when we were invited to the PCAA, which later became the Big West and at the time featured, among others, San Diego St., Fresno St., and San Jose St, and would soon add Utah St., UNLV and NMSU. We were blocked from membership by the SBOE because Boise St. objected to being left behind.

Many, many ironies in Idaho football history.
04-24-2017 11:17 PM
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Bronco85 Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-24-2017 05:58 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 05:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 12:55 PM)Bronco85 Wrote:  If UI had been able to find its way back into the PCC/AAWU/PAC as WSU, UO, and OSU did (and state politics in Washington and Oregon played a significant role)

The population of those states was a huge factor even in the 1960s and still is now.

Population, 1960 and 2010
Idaho 667,191 / 1,567,582
Oregon 1,768,687 / 3,831,074
Washington 2,853,214 / 6,724,540

There's a good argument that Wazzu got in the AAWU in the 1960s because of in-state political pressure, but if Wazzu was "out", Idaho still wouldn't be in.

Well, then what year did Idaho and Montana get into the first version of the PAC 8? I'm assuming population difference was pretty big then too....

You are correct. The population had little to do with Corvallis (39,000 population in 1960 and no airport) and Pullman (10,000 population in 1960 and no airport) getting into the AAWU. Television money was not a consideration then. OSU (and UO) was fortunate to be on the highway and rail head running up California and ending at the highly desired UDub (and provided regional competition for UW in all sports). Wazzu was not convenient at all for anyone and it took legislative fiat for them to get into the AAWU. UI, just 8 miles from Pullman and at the time similar in nearly every way, had no such good fortune as to be partnered with a more desirable in-state school. The Vandals would slog it out as an independent until they joined the Big Sky for the first time as a charter member in 1963.

When UI and UM were originally added to the PCC, all 4 of these schools (UI, UM, OAC and WSC) were in remote small towns (Eugene/Springfield wasn't all that big either). None had great attendance.
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2017 08:51 PM by Bronco85.)
04-24-2017 11:29 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-24-2017 11:29 PM)Bronco85 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 05:58 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 05:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 12:55 PM)Bronco85 Wrote:  If UI had been able to find its way back into the PCC/AAWU/PAC as WSU, UO, and OSU did (and state politics in Washington and Oregon played a significant role)

The population of those states was a huge factor even in the 1960s and still is now.

Population, 1960 and 2010
Idaho 667,191 / 1,567,582
Oregon 1,768,687 / 3,831,074
Washington 2,853,214 / 6,724,540

There's a good argument that Wazzu got in the AAWU in the 1960s because of in-state political pressure, but if Wazzu was "out", Idaho still wouldn't be in.

Well, then what year did Idaho and Montana get into the first version of the PAC 8? I'm assuming population difference was pretty big then too....

You are correct. The population had little to do with Corvallis (39,000 population in 1960 and no airport) and Pullman (10,000 population in 1960 and no airport) getting into the AAWU. Television money was not a consideration then. OSU (and UO) was fortunate to be on the highway and rail head running up California and ending at the highly desired UDub (and provided regional competition for UW in all sports). Wazzu was not convenient at all for anyone and it took legislative fiat for them to get into the AAWU. UI, just 8 miles from Pullman and at the time similar in nearly every way, had no such good fortune as to be partnered with a more desirable in-state school. The Vandals would slog it out as an independent (not being allowed to join the PCAA in 1973) until they joined the Big Sky for the first time.

When UI and UM were originally added to the PCC, all 4 of these schools (UI, UM, OAC and WSC) were in remote small towns (Eugene/Springfield wasn't all that big either). None had great attendance.

Great post and that blows the population part of the argument out the window.
04-25-2017 08:56 AM
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Bronco85 Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-24-2017 11:17 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  Yeah, I don't believe we were anywhere near the WAC. I'm not sure why. Our first big chance to escape the Big Sky came in the early '70s when we were invited to the PCAA, which later became the Big West and at the time featured, among others, San Diego St., Fresno St., and San Jose St, and would soon add Utah St., UNLV and NMSU. We were blocked from membership by the SBOE because Boise St. objected to being left behind.

Many, many ironies in Idaho football history.

The myth that BSU (Boise State College or BSC at the time) had anything to do with UI not getting into the PCAA in 1973 is absurd. BSC had been in the state system only four years in 1973. It only had a few thousand students and a few buildings. It had no representation on the ISBOE (ISU had little more). BSC had only been D2 for a couple years and had no desire at the time to be D1 and no prospects to be D1 so they could not be left behind. BSC was already behind. Not getting in the PCAA did not necessarily result in UI dropping down (it put them in a similar position to today) and UI did not immediately drop down a division. The rift was between a D1 PCAA faction at the UI led by the AD versus a de-emphasize athletics (BSC) faction led by prominent faculty. The incident that tipped the scales was when UI's own comptroller accused the AD of inflating economic gains from the PCAA and declared the UI would never be likely to increase attendance enough to cover the costs of being in the PCAA and thus embracing the BSC and cutting costs was the only fiscally prudent move. This disclosure from a UI employee led to the deciding vote being cast in the ISBOE by an UI alumnus from Sandpoint. It was self inflicted. Tiny BSC couldn't have influenced the ISBOE in those days even if they had wanted to do so.

You are a good guy and I root for UI to remain FBS but the tale of a BSU or BSU/ISU power move (depending on the rant) in the ISBOE in 1973 is simply not true nor was it possible then. The source for this tale comes from the UI student newpaper archives and gets repeated on Vandal websites but it obviously has no basis in fact.
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2017 09:50 AM by Bronco85.)
04-25-2017 05:26 PM
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LatahCounty Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-25-2017 05:26 PM)Bronco85 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 11:17 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  Yeah, I don't believe we were anywhere near the WAC. I'm not sure why. Our first big chance to escape the Big Sky came in the early '70s when we were invited to the PCAA, which later became the Big West and at the time featured, among others, San Diego St., Fresno St., and San Jose St, and would soon add Utah St., UNLV and NMSU. We were blocked from membership by the SBOE because Boise St. objected to being left behind.

Many, many ironies in Idaho football history.

The myth that BSU (Boise State College or BSC at the time) had anything to do with UI not getting into the PCAA in 1973 is absurd. BSC has been in the state system only four years in 1973. It only had a few thousand students and a few buildings. It had no representation on the ISBOE (ISU had little more). BSC had only been D2 for a couple years and had no desire at the time to be D1 and no prospects to be D1 so they could not be left behind. BSC was already behind. Not getting in the PCAA did not necessarily result in UI dropping down (it put them in a similar position to today) and UI did not immediately drop down a division. The rift was between a D1 PCAA faction at the UI led by the AD versus a de-emphasize athletics (BSC) faction led by prominent faculty. The incident that tipped the scales was when UI's own comptroller accused the AD of inflating economic gains from the PCAA and declared the UI would never be likely to increase attendance enough to cover the costs of being in the PCAA and thus embracing the BSC and cutting costs was the only fiscally prudent move. This disclosure from a UI employee led to the deciding vote being cast in the ISBOE by an UI alumnus from Sandpoint. It was self inflicted. Tiny BSC couldn't have influenced the ISBOE in those days even if they had wanted to do so.

You are a good guy and I root for UI to remain FBS but the tale of a BSU or BSU/ISU power move (depending on the rant) in the ISBOE in 1973 is simply not true nor was it possible then. The source for this tale comes from the UI student newpaper archives and gets repeated on Vandal websites but it is obviously has no basis in fact.

That's funny. I wasn't around back then and I've never done the research but this is something that's repeated as fact so often around Idaho people that I took it as true. Your account certainly makes more sense than anything I've seen from Idaho people and I'd heard the bit about the faculty split part of this before (it certainly still exists today), so I'll defer to you and retract anything about BSU having anything to do with it unless some other Idaho fan wants to correct your correction.
04-25-2017 05:44 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-25-2017 05:44 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 05:26 PM)Bronco85 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 11:17 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  Yeah, I don't believe we were anywhere near the WAC. I'm not sure why. Our first big chance to escape the Big Sky came in the early '70s when we were invited to the PCAA, which later became the Big West and at the time featured, among others, San Diego St., Fresno St., and San Jose St, and would soon add Utah St., UNLV and NMSU. We were blocked from membership by the SBOE because Boise St. objected to being left behind.

Many, many ironies in Idaho football history.

The myth that BSU (Boise State College or BSC at the time) had anything to do with UI not getting into the PCAA in 1973 is absurd. BSC has been in the state system only four years in 1973. It only had a few thousand students and a few buildings. It had no representation on the ISBOE (ISU had little more). BSC had only been D2 for a couple years and had no desire at the time to be D1 and no prospects to be D1 so they could not be left behind. BSC was already behind. Not getting in the PCAA did not necessarily result in UI dropping down (it put them in a similar position to today) and UI did not immediately drop down a division. The rift was between a D1 PCAA faction at the UI led by the AD versus a de-emphasize athletics (BSC) faction led by prominent faculty. The incident that tipped the scales was when UI's own comptroller accused the AD of inflating economic gains from the PCAA and declared the UI would never be likely to increase attendance enough to cover the costs of being in the PCAA and thus embracing the BSC and cutting costs was the only fiscally prudent move. This disclosure from a UI employee led to the deciding vote being cast in the ISBOE by an UI alumnus from Sandpoint. It was self inflicted. Tiny BSC couldn't have influenced the ISBOE in those days even if they had wanted to do so.

You are a good guy and I root for UI to remain FBS but the tale of a BSU or BSU/ISU power move (depending on the rant) in the ISBOE in 1973 is simply not true nor was it possible then. The source for this tale comes from the UI student newpaper archives and gets repeated on Vandal websites but it is obviously has no basis in fact.

That's funny. I wasn't around back then and I've never done the research but this is something that's repeated as fact so often around Idaho people that I took it as true. Your account certainly makes more sense than anything I've seen from Idaho people and I'd heard the bit about the faculty split part of this before (it certainly still exists today), so I'll defer to you and retract anything about BSU having anything to do with it unless some other Idaho fan wants to correct your correction.

Phenomenal post and classy reaction between a couple of interesting and civil posters. I learned more about the Idaho Boise St history here than any where else.
04-25-2017 08:49 PM
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Bronco85 Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-25-2017 08:49 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 05:44 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 05:26 PM)Bronco85 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 11:17 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  Yeah, I don't believe we were anywhere near the WAC. I'm not sure why. Our first big chance to escape the Big Sky came in the early '70s when we were invited to the PCAA, which later became the Big West and at the time featured, among others, San Diego St., Fresno St., and San Jose St, and would soon add Utah St., UNLV and NMSU. We were blocked from membership by the SBOE because Boise St. objected to being left behind.

Many, many ironies in Idaho football history.

The myth that BSU (Boise State College or BSC at the time) had anything to do with UI not getting into the PCAA in 1973 is absurd. BSC has been in the state system only four years in 1973. It only had a few thousand students and a few buildings. It had no representation on the ISBOE (ISU had little more). BSC had only been D2 for a couple years and had no desire at the time to be D1 and no prospects to be D1 so they could not be left behind. BSC was already behind. Not getting in the PCAA did not necessarily result in UI dropping down (it put them in a similar position to today) and UI did not immediately drop down a division. The rift was between a D1 PCAA faction at the UI led by the AD versus a de-emphasize athletics (BSC) faction led by prominent faculty. The incident that tipped the scales was when UI's own comptroller accused the AD of inflating economic gains from the PCAA and declared the UI would never be likely to increase attendance enough to cover the costs of being in the PCAA and thus embracing the BSC and cutting costs was the only fiscally prudent move. This disclosure from a UI employee led to the deciding vote being cast in the ISBOE by an UI alumnus from Sandpoint. It was self inflicted. Tiny BSC couldn't have influenced the ISBOE in those days even if they had wanted to do so.

You are a good guy and I root for UI to remain FBS but the tale of a BSU or BSU/ISU power move (depending on the rant) in the ISBOE in 1973 is simply not true nor was it possible then. The source for this tale comes from the UI student newpaper archives and gets repeated on Vandal websites but it is obviously has no basis in fact.

That's funny. I wasn't around back then and I've never done the research but this is something that's repeated as fact so often around Idaho people that I took it as true. Your account certainly makes more sense than anything I've seen from Idaho people and I'd heard the bit about the faculty split part of this before (it certainly still exists today), so I'll defer to you and retract anything about BSU having anything to do with it unless some other Idaho fan wants to correct your correction.

Phenomenal post and classy reaction between a couple of interesting and civil posters. I learned more about the Idaho Boise St history here than any where else.

Virtually all of my many interactions with the great Vandals I know are just like this one with Latah. I have members in my family who are alums of one or both of these schools.

Another element to the vote that day was as soon as the vote to allow UI to join the PCAA failed, the same board members who introduced the PCAA motion made and seconded another motion to allow UI to become an independent D1 school and leave the BSC. That motion failed with the same margin and the board members voting as they did before:

No:
Janet Hay - Nampa
M.T. Deaton - Pocatello
D.F. Engelking - Boise (superindentant of Public Instruction)
J.P. Munson - Sandpoint (the deciding vote and UI alum)
Yes:
A.L. Alford - Lewiston
Ed Benoit - Twin Falls
Ken Thatcher - Twin Falls
Abstained:
John Swartley - Sandpoint (Board Chair)

Earlier that year the board had voted to go ahead with the design phase of the Kibbie Dome roof and had appropriated funds for that purpose. This was also integral to the ISBOE voting against both of the motions described above as it bolstered the argument that UI would not be able to increase attendance sufficiently to afford the PCAA and the UI was going to add significant debt to finish the dome. Undoubtedly ISU and BSU preferred to keep their newly acquired in-state rival but neither had the power to effect a board that was UI dominated and UI friendly. Factionalism and creative accounting (or the accusation thereof) along with already being committed to small stadium indoor football is what torpedoed the PCAA or Independent status for the Vandals in 1973. Now the firing of the BSU president over BSU being offered and wanting to accept a BWC slot in 1992 is another story...

In any case, UI staying in the Big Sky did not result in the Vandals dropping to the Small College (D2) division (which is the division at which the rest of the BSC schools were classified from the inception of the BSC in 1963). Idaho continued to play as a University Division/D1 school in a D2 league until the creation of the 1AA subdivision of football allowed the rest of the BSC to move to D1 (and D1AA football) in 1978. D1AA at the time had guaranteed network football games and television revenue sharing so it was not a tough sell. Oddly enough, UI was in the Small College Division (D2) in the first year of the NCAA (1937) and in 1967 through 1968 (consistent with their SC/D2 Big Sky peers). The Vandals played as a D1 school in the D2 Big Sky from 1965-1966 (despite being a charter member of the Big Sky, UI did not play football in the conference until 1965) and then from 1969-1977. Maybe a third time... naw, nobody would go for that, would they?
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2017 10:03 PM by Bronco85.)
04-26-2017 09:42 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
As always ... very interesting history. Thanks guys!


When is the next likely update to this saga expected to take place??
04-28-2017 10:59 AM
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LatahCounty Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-28-2017 10:59 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  As always ... very interesting history. Thanks guys!


When is the next likely update to this saga expected to take place??

After rejecting the 4-year, $4 million bailout in February, the SBOE approved a 1-year, $1 million request last week. One would assume that in order to get any more money the school will now need to provide the SBOE with a real plan to balance its books, which will include fairly substantial cuts to the athletic department. I don't know the timetable for that, but it would have to be public sometime in the next 10 months and I'd expect leaks well before then.

I'll be very interested to see how they project donations going forward. They've already taken a hit, but they're going to take a much bigger drop once we actually move to FCS -- I'd estimate 1/3 to 1/2 of the remaining boosters (including me!) will stop or severely cut back on their donations at that point. We'll see if the school corrects for that or if they just keep whistling past the graveyard.

Meanwhile through all this, I'd expect another bowl season for Idaho, which will make Chuck's decision look more questionable to more people.
04-28-2017 03:15 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #115
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
So let's say it's later in December, Idaho caps an improbable season (say 10 wins total) with a bowl game win.

Boosters are actually excited, and threatening to cut donations if FCS goes forward.


Given that those things could happen (not far fetched), what is the likely outcome of that??
04-28-2017 03:26 PM
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LatahCounty Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-28-2017 03:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  So let's say it's later in December, Idaho caps an improbable season (say 10 wins total) with a bowl game win.

Boosters are actually excited, and threatening to cut donations if FCS goes forward.


Given that those things could happen (not far fetched), what is the likely outcome of that??

Is Chuck Staben still president? I mean, I have no idea what would happen, but boosters are threatening those things right now. I think Staben looks even worse that way, but he's so wrapped up in his decision at this point I don't know how he reverses himself.

But, there are other variables regarding President Chuck's illustrious tenure. Degree numbers at the U of I, courtesy of the Vandal Board:

Historic Data uidaho.edu/provost/iea/degrees-awarded
Fall Commencement uidaho.edu/news/news-articles/news-releases/2016-november/112816-fallcommencement
Spring Commencement uidaho.edu/news/news-articles/news-releases/2017-april/042517-moscowcommencement

The degrees awarded peaked during the 2012-2013 Academic Year with 3107.

2009-2010 Academic Year- 2574 degrees awarded

2010-2011 Academic Year- 2667 degrees awarded

2011-2012 Academic Year- 2842 degrees awarded

2012-2013 Academic Year- 3107 degrees awarded

2013-2014 Academic Year- 3047 degrees awarded

2014-2015 Academic Year- 2861 degrees awarded

2015-2016 Academic Year- 2700 degrees awarded

2016-2017 Academic Year- 2206 degrees awarded

So, given those numbers the current academic year has a 18.3% decrease in degrees awarded with a 28.9% decrease since the 2012-2013 academic year.

There's not a lot going well at Idaho right now. One would like to think someone important would notice that eventually and want to do something about it.
04-28-2017 06:25 PM
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Post: #117
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-28-2017 06:25 PM)LatahCounty Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 03:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  So let's say it's later in December, Idaho caps an improbable season (say 10 wins total) with a bowl game win.

Boosters are actually excited, and threatening to cut donations if FCS goes forward.


Given that those things could happen (not far fetched), what is the likely outcome of that??

Is Chuck Staben still president? I mean, I have no idea what would happen, but boosters are threatening those things right now. I think Staben looks even worse that way, but he's so wrapped up in his decision at this point I don't know how he reverses himself.

But, there are other variables regarding President Chuck's illustrious tenure. Degree numbers at the U of I, courtesy of the Vandal Board:

Historic Data uidaho.edu/provost/iea/degrees-awarded
Fall Commencement uidaho.edu/news/news-articles/news-releases/2016-november/112816-fallcommencement
Spring Commencement uidaho.edu/news/news-articles/news-releases/2017-april/042517-moscowcommencement

The degrees awarded peaked during the 2012-2013 Academic Year with 3107.

2009-2010 Academic Year- 2574 degrees awarded

2010-2011 Academic Year- 2667 degrees awarded

2011-2012 Academic Year- 2842 degrees awarded

2012-2013 Academic Year- 3107 degrees awarded

2013-2014 Academic Year- 3047 degrees awarded

2014-2015 Academic Year- 2861 degrees awarded

2015-2016 Academic Year- 2700 degrees awarded

2016-2017 Academic Year- 2206 degrees awarded

So, given those numbers the current academic year has a 18.3% decrease in degrees awarded with a 28.9% decrease since the 2012-2013 academic year.

There's not a lot going well at Idaho right now. One would like to think someone important would notice that eventually and want to do something about it.

Good gawd. This is of more concern than football. The facts that the enrollment actually declined again this year (once the enrollment numbers were adjusted for Staben trying to count HS students taking a college credited course at their HS as new students) combined with the dropping graduation numbers (future donors) are scary. The new funding formula from the state incentivizes the number of graduates. Discounting anything about athletics, why is there not alarm bells going off in the faculty senate at UI and ISU (and BSU and LCSC)? These trends do not bode well for the UofI or really any school in Idaho not named BYU-I or who is not a CC. Looking at the enrollment data for the last decade is more troubling.

2006 Idaho Public University Spring Enrollment:

UI: Academic Full-Time = 9,380
Academic Part Time = 2,359
Total = 11,739

ISU: Academic Full Time = 7,383
Academic Part Time = 4,101
Professional/Tech = 1,195
Total = 12,679

BSU: Academic Full Time = 10,726
Academic Part Time = 7,207
Professional/Tech = 947*
Total = 18,880

LCSC: Academic Full Time = 1,808
Academic Part Time = 837
Professional/Tech = 566
Total = 3,211

2016 Idaho Public University Spring Enrollment:

UI: Academic Full Time = 8,580
Academic Part Time = 3,200
Total = 11,780

ISU: Academic Full Time = 6,970
Academic Part Time = 4,861
Professional/Tech = 1,097
Total = 12,928

BSU: Academic Full Time = 13,311
Academic Part Time = 10,543
Total = 23,854

LCSC: Academic Full Time = 1,941
Academic Part Time = 1,540
Professional/Tech = 428
Total = 3,909

While UI and ISU peaked in enrollment in 2012, both are virtually the same for total enrollment in 2016 as they were in 2006. However, both are down significantly from 2006 in Full Time students. They have grown significantly in Part Time students. This is why (correcting for inflation) the UI and ISU have income decline from tuition and fees when 2006 and 2016 enrollment numbers are compared, i.e. part time students often do not pay any fees or pay reduced fees. They also pay less tuition and spend less time and money on campus. Part Time students frequently do not develop an identification with the school and are less likely to become donors in the future. They graduate at a lower percentage than their Full Time peers. Since all public universities and colleges in Idaho are now providing college credits for high school students (who are not enrolled and are not paying fees at those colleges), some of the increase all four institutions show for Part Time student growth is likely due to being the credit depository for HS students taking AP type classes in HS (and in fact we know this is the case at UI). While BSU and LCSC show growth for both FT and PT students, the PT students are not generating income at the rate FT students do. UI has moved from the largest College/University in the state to the 4th largest. If trends continue, CWI for sure and likely CSI will also pass the UI in enrollment soon. Staben has said increasing enrollment was going to be his primary task at UI. I hope a shell game of claiming enrollment increases due to a phantom increase in Part Time students is not his grand solution. In any case, when you keep increasing the number of Part Time students as a percentage of your student population, your graduation rate and income will go down. I truly hope the reduction in UI's athletic department is not a harbinger for more cuts elsewhere.

*BSU's drop to zero in Professional/Technical students is due to the closure of BSU's Selland College and the opening of Western Idaho College.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 07:18 PM by Bronco85.)
04-30-2017 07:00 PM
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LatahCounty Offline
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Post: #118
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(04-30-2017 07:00 PM)Bronco85 Wrote:  Good gawd. This is of more concern than football. The facts that the enrollment actually declined again this year (once the enrollment numbers were adjusted for Staben trying to count HS students taking a college credited course at their HS as new students) combined with the dropping graduation numbers (future donors) are scary. The new funding formula from the state incentivizes the number of graduates. Discounting anything about athletics, why is there not alarm bells going off in the faculty senate at UI and ISU (and BSU and LCSC)? These trends do not bode well for the UofI or really any school in Idaho not named BYU-I or who is not a CC. Looking at the enrollment data for the last decade is more troubling.

2006 Idaho Public University Spring Enrollment:

UI: Academic Full-Time = 9,380
Academic Part Time = 2,359
Total = 11,739

ISU: Academic Full Time = 7,383
Academic Part Time = 4,101
Professional/Tech = 1,195
Total = 12,679

BSU: Academic Full Time = 10,726
Academic Part Time = 7,207
Professional/Tech = 947*
Total = 18,880

LCSC: Academic Full Time = 1,808
Academic Part Time = 837
Professional/Tech = 566
Total = 3,211

2016 Idaho Public University Spring Enrollment:

UI: Academic Full Time = 8,580
Academic Part Time = 3,200
Total = 11,780

ISU: Academic Full Time = 6,970
Academic Part Time = 4,861
Professional/Tech = 1,097
Total = 12,928

BSU: Academic Full Time = 13,311
Academic Part Time = 10,543
Total = 23,854

LCSC: Academic Full Time = 1,941
Academic Part Time = 1,540
Professional/Tech = 428
Total = 3,909

While UI and ISU peaked in enrollment in 2012, both are virtually the same for total enrollment in 2016 as they were in 2006. However, both are down significantly from 2006 in Full Time students. They have grown significantly in Part Time students. This is why (correcting for inflation) the UI and ISU have income decline from tuition and fees when 2006 and 2016 enrollment numbers are compared, i.e. part time students often do not pay any fees or pay reduced fees. They also pay less tuition and spend less time and money on campus. Part Time students frequently do not develop an identification with the school and are less likely to become donors in the future. They graduate at a lower percentage than their Full Time peers. Since all public universities and colleges in Idaho are now providing college credits for high school students (who are not enrolled and are not paying fees at those colleges), some of the increase all four institutions show for Part Time student growth is likely due to being the credit depository for HS students taking AP type classes in HS (and in fact we know this is the case at UI). While BSU and LCSC show growth for both FT and PT students, the PT students are not generating income at the rate FT students do so. UI has moved from the largest College/University in the state to the 4th largest. If trends continue, CWI for sure and likely CSI will also pass the UI in enrollment soon. Staben has said increasing enrollment was going to be his primary task at UI. I hope a shell game of claiming enrollment increases due to a phantom increase in Part Time students is not his grand solution. In any case, when you keep increasing the number of Part Time students as a percentage of your student population, your graduation rate and income will go down. I truly hope the reduction in UI's athletic department is not a harbinger for more cuts elsewhere.

*BSU's drop to zero in Professional/Technical students is due to the closure of BSU's Selland College and the opening of Western Idaho College.

I've watched for years and years as Idaho leaders happily putz along while the University stays stagnant or declines. This is the biggest reason I don't believe there's a conspiracy against Idaho -- there's never much of an outcry about Idaho's problems in Boise, but more importantly, there's never much of an outcry in Moscow either.

Moscow has allowed a weird cabal of no-growthers within and around the University to fester for decades. Somehow they have it in their heads that Moscow (25,000 people surrounded on 3 sides by miles and miles of wheatfields) has a big problem with sprawl. They're happy to see enrollment decline and want the town to shrink. These are also the first people to complain when University salaries don't keep pace with the rest of academia elsewhere. Somehow they don't see the correlation.

The no-growthers are the people giving Chuck Staben attaboys on the FCS decision. They don't really want an FCS football program either, but they're always delighted when the athletic department gets taken down a peg.

Meanwhile in the real world of a university facing a long-term enrollment crisis it seems like a bad idea to keep shrinking your presence throughout the state and to spend 2 years humiliating and debasing what is to the general public the most visible part of your school.
05-01-2017 06:02 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #119
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
That sounds like a DIII, private liberal arts college in a rural area, to me.
05-01-2017 10:25 PM
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LatahCounty Offline
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Post: #120
RE: Chuck Staben is a Dirty, Filthy, Stinking Liar
(05-01-2017 10:25 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  That sounds like a DIII, private liberal arts college in a rural area, to me.

There's a faction who wants to be pretty much that. It appears to include Chuck Staben.
05-01-2017 11:16 PM
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