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Sports venues are money losers
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billybobby777 Online
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Post: #11
RE: Sports venues are money losers
(04-18-2017 12:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 12:27 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The articles apply to baseball ball parks; however, it can easily be applied to stadium projects for FB and most likely other sporting venues too.

http://www.richmond.com/opinion/our-opin...af399.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-ballpar...1491912002

The economic projections never pan out. How many universities screw themselves over trying to compete with the FB and BB factories who are only too happy to continue ratcheting up the costs. Out of all schools playing in the revenue sports conferences of FBS (and the main BB counterpart league), only 20 to 30 can actually afford our current levels. UMD is a mess. Rutgers is a mess. Cal-Berkeley is a mess. Vast majority of these schools playing at the highest levels are taking from the general funds to subsidize athletics.

Couple all this with the realities that 1) tuition costs continue to rise at rates higher than annual inflation, 2) states are funding public universities at lower levels than they have in decades and 3) people are wising up to false narrative that all college is good - no matter what degree choice you make.

I don't see how all of this is sustainable over the long term.

Its probably not---but sports isn't really the reason for the issue. These schools have billion dollar budgets. The athletics budgets support much of their own costs with most G5's running deficits of 10-20 million. Most P5's are running athletic deficits of just a few million. Its like pointing to foreign aid in the US budget as the reason for our national debt. Like NoDak said, most stadiums that are responsibly built with a reasonable cost and a significant portion of the funds donated---those will work out fine. A situation like Colorado St is one where I'd be concerned. Overly high cost for a 30K stadium with most of it financed with debt. That situation could easily go bad if ticket sales go south after a poor season or two.

"A situation like Colorado St is one where I'd be concerned."---I think CSU did the exact same thing as Houston. They pretty much had to. They've both taken a chance by building new stadiums. (Debt) CSU was playing in a stadium they owned further away than Houston was as Robertson was on campus and theirs wasn't, but both played in out dated stadiums and needed to revive their fan bases with shiny new modern on campus stadiums. CSU is one of those schools that is very close to P5 inclusion. They've got very good academics and had some really good football teams in the 90's and 2000's....they needed to do this. Houston needed to do it too. There were a lot of locals saying Coogs were going to go in debt etc. I guarantee you are very happy about TDECU. Surprised to see you feel that way.

*wikipedia lists Colorado St's new stadium's capacity at 41,200. Houston's is 40,000 capacity.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2017 04:27 PM by billybobby777.)
04-18-2017 04:22 PM
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Post: #12
RE: Sports venues are money losers
(04-18-2017 01:04 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I didn't look it up, but it seems like donated venues would be atypical for most schools at div1 (P5 and G5).

It's more common than you'd think.

Cincinnati's Nippert Stadium was originally paid for by James Gamble (of Proctor & Gamble) in memory of his grandson Jimmy Nippert, a Bearcat player who died from blood poisoning after being cleated during a game.

The recent $86 million expansion of Nippert was completely privately funded: "no university general funds are paying for the project. Instead, private donations and premium seating options will fund the project over a period of years."

We just started an $87 million rebuild of the basketball arena (essentially all that is staying is the shell and the foundation). It will also be privately funded.
04-18-2017 05:00 PM
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Post: #13
RE: Sports venues are money losers
(04-18-2017 04:22 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 12:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 12:27 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The articles apply to baseball ball parks; however, it can easily be applied to stadium projects for FB and most likely other sporting venues too.

http://www.richmond.com/opinion/our-opin...af399.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-ballpar...1491912002

The economic projections never pan out. How many universities screw themselves over trying to compete with the FB and BB factories who are only too happy to continue ratcheting up the costs. Out of all schools playing in the revenue sports conferences of FBS (and the main BB counterpart league), only 20 to 30 can actually afford our current levels. UMD is a mess. Rutgers is a mess. Cal-Berkeley is a mess. Vast majority of these schools playing at the highest levels are taking from the general funds to subsidize athletics.

Couple all this with the realities that 1) tuition costs continue to rise at rates higher than annual inflation, 2) states are funding public universities at lower levels than they have in decades and 3) people are wising up to false narrative that all college is good - no matter what degree choice you make.

I don't see how all of this is sustainable over the long term.

Its probably not---but sports isn't really the reason for the issue. These schools have billion dollar budgets. The athletics budgets support much of their own costs with most G5's running deficits of 10-20 million. Most P5's are running athletic deficits of just a few million. Its like pointing to foreign aid in the US budget as the reason for our national debt. Like NoDak said, most stadiums that are responsibly built with a reasonable cost and a significant portion of the funds donated---those will work out fine. A situation like Colorado St is one where I'd be concerned. Overly high cost for a 30K stadium with most of it financed with debt. That situation could easily go bad if ticket sales go south after a poor season or two.

"A situation like Colorado St is one where I'd be concerned."---I think CSU did the exact same thing as Houston. They pretty much had to. They've both taken a chance by building new stadiums. (Debt) CSU was playing in a stadium they owned further away than Houston was as Robertson was on campus and theirs wasn't, but both played in out dated stadiums and needed to revive their fan bases with shiny new modern on campus stadiums. CSU is one of those schools that is very close to P5 inclusion. They've got very good academics and had some really good football teams in the 90's and 2000's....they needed to do this. Houston needed to do it too. There were a lot of locals saying Coogs were going to go in debt etc. I guarantee you are very happy about TDECU. Surprised to see you feel that way.

*wikipedia lists Colorado St's new stadium's capacity at 41,200. Houston's is 40,000 capacity.

My bad on the stadium capacity. I remembered incorrectly. Its 40K--just like Houston. I agree they both needed to make a move---but there is a big difference between the two projects. The Houston stadium was 128 million, of which half was donated and half was paid for using bond debt (which will be serviced by a student fee). The athletic department itself has no debt to service. This allows the new increased revenue from the new stadium to flow into the athletic department.

The Colorado St stadium was nearly twice as expensive (about 240 million) and was completely financed with bond debt (242 million). The difference is all the debt service from the stadium bonds has to be paid from funds generated from stadium revenue. Even if the stadium revenue projections are solid, the new revenue isn't going to help the athletic department because it will mostly be going to pay off debt. If the projections are off, the stadium could become an albatross around the neck of the athletic department diverting money from its budget to pay debt.

http://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/loc.../22935963/
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2017 05:50 PM by Attackcoog.)
04-18-2017 05:35 PM
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Post: #14
RE: Sports venues are money losers
(04-18-2017 12:27 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The articles apply to baseball ball parks; however, it can easily be applied to stadium projects for FB and most likely other sporting venues too.

http://www.richmond.com/opinion/our-opin...af399.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-ballpar...1491912002

The economic projections never pan out. How many universities screw themselves over trying to compete with the FB and BB factories who are only too happy to continue ratcheting up the costs. Out of all schools playing in the revenue sports conferences of FBS (and the main BB counterpart league), only 20 to 30 can actually afford our current levels. UMD is a mess. Rutgers is a mess. Cal-Berkeley is a mess. Vast majority of these schools playing at the highest levels are taking from the general funds to subsidize athletics.

Couple all this with the realities that 1) tuition costs continue to rise at rates higher than annual inflation, 2) states are funding public universities at lower levels than they have in decades and 3) people are wising up to false narrative that all college is good - no matter what degree choice you make.

I don't see how all of this is sustainable over the long term.

Football stadiums are money losers, especially non-domes. Arenas can be very profitable. Staples Center has 124-167 dates for basketball and hockey alone, let alone concerts and other events.
04-18-2017 05:45 PM
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billybobby777 Online
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Post: #15
RE: Sports venues are money losers
(04-18-2017 05:35 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 04:22 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 12:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 12:27 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The articles apply to baseball ball parks; however, it can easily be applied to stadium projects for FB and most likely other sporting venues too.

http://www.richmond.com/opinion/our-opin...af399.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-ballpar...1491912002

The economic projections never pan out. How many universities screw themselves over trying to compete with the FB and BB factories who are only too happy to continue ratcheting up the costs. Out of all schools playing in the revenue sports conferences of FBS (and the main BB counterpart league), only 20 to 30 can actually afford our current levels. UMD is a mess. Rutgers is a mess. Cal-Berkeley is a mess. Vast majority of these schools playing at the highest levels are taking from the general funds to subsidize athletics.

Couple all this with the realities that 1) tuition costs continue to rise at rates higher than annual inflation, 2) states are funding public universities at lower levels than they have in decades and 3) people are wising up to false narrative that all college is good - no matter what degree choice you make.

I don't see how all of this is sustainable over the long term.

Its probably not---but sports isn't really the reason for the issue. These schools have billion dollar budgets. The athletics budgets support much of their own costs with most G5's running deficits of 10-20 million. Most P5's are running athletic deficits of just a few million. Its like pointing to foreign aid in the US budget as the reason for our national debt. Like NoDak said, most stadiums that are responsibly built with a reasonable cost and a significant portion of the funds donated---those will work out fine. A situation like Colorado St is one where I'd be concerned. Overly high cost for a 30K stadium with most of it financed with debt. That situation could easily go bad if ticket sales go south after a poor season or two.

"A situation like Colorado St is one where I'd be concerned."---I think CSU did the exact same thing as Houston. They pretty much had to. They've both taken a chance by building new stadiums. (Debt) CSU was playing in a stadium they owned further away than Houston was as Robertson was on campus and theirs wasn't, but both played in out dated stadiums and needed to revive their fan bases with shiny new modern on campus stadiums. CSU is one of those schools that is very close to P5 inclusion. They've got very good academics and had some really good football teams in the 90's and 2000's....they needed to do this. Houston needed to do it too. There were a lot of locals saying Coogs were going to go in debt etc. I guarantee you are very happy about TDECU. Surprised to see you feel that way.

*wikipedia lists Colorado St's new stadium's capacity at 41,200. Houston's is 40,000 capacity.

My bad on the stadium capacity. I remembered incorrectly. Its 40K--just like Houston. I agree they both needed to make a move---but there is a big difference between the two projects. The Houston stadium was 128 million, of which half was donated and half was paid for using bond debt (which will be serviced by a student fee). The athletic department itself has no debt to service. This allows the new increased revenue from the new stadium to flow into the athletic department.

The Colorado St stadium was nearly twice as expensive (about 240 million) and was completely financed with bond debt (242 million). The difference is all the debt service that the athletic department has to pay is to be generated from stadium revenue. Even if the stadium revenue projections are solid, the new revenue isn't going to help the athletic department much because it will be going to pay off debt.

http://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/loc.../22935963/

Yeah. As you know, Texas is the best place on Earth to build a football stadium. Im assuming Colorado is much more expensive and places like the NE? Forget about it, with the money, lack of land, unions, politicians getting greased etc.
On the donation part, I read that CSU got a 20 million anonymous donation and some other nice donations as well. I wonder why they completely financed it? I'm getting all of my info from Wikipedia and google. I have no insider info that could be be more accurate ...any CSU fans on here who can clarify the 100% financing of stadium?
04-18-2017 05:53 PM
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Post: #16
RE: Sports venues are money losers
(04-18-2017 04:20 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 03:59 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 03:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 12:27 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The articles apply to baseball ball parks; however, it can easily be applied to stadium projects for FB and most likely other sporting venues too.

http://www.richmond.com/opinion/our-opin...af399.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-ballpar...1491912002

The economic projections never pan out. How many universities screw themselves over trying to compete with the FB and BB factories who are only too happy to continue ratcheting up the costs. Out of all schools playing in the revenue sports conferences of FBS (and the main BB counterpart league), only 20 to 30 can actually afford our current levels. UMD is a mess. Rutgers is a mess. Cal-Berkeley is a mess. Vast majority of these schools playing at the highest levels are taking from the general funds to subsidize athletics.

Couple all this with the realities that 1) tuition costs continue to rise at rates higher than annual inflation, 2) states are funding public universities at lower levels than they have in decades and 3) people are wising up to false narrative that all college is good - no matter what degree choice you make.

I don't see how all of this is sustainable over the long term.

It's not sustainable for all schools. And for those which can't sustain it you need to get out and concentrate on what you can afford.

That won't deter most schools from pursuing it though. Who deserves the most blame in all this - the administrators at borderline schools that shouldn't be playing, or the fact that the system is set up to include too many schools at the top level? No doubt a significant number of schools in the existing P5 have no business being included when we're talking about the levels of commitment - financially - needed to compete.

I think the system is too inclusive based on the money we're discussing. Before you guys get your panties all wadded up, I'm including my school as one of the P5s that should not be competing financially on the levels of OSU, PSU, ND and Alabama.

Miko there might be 40 schools which can afford to compete at the highest level, maybe even fewer.

Right now the top school Texas grosses 180 million and of course puts most of that back into its sports. Consider that Georgia Tech managed just under 50 million last year and the distinction exceeds stark! I'd say there definitely needs to be an investment cutoff for a new upper tier let's say 90 million and up. Then there needs to be a cutoff for those with the investment and revenue levels that are in between 40 million and 80 million with the rest forming a third tier below the 40 million level.

What you would end up with is a much more competitive set of ranges and is somewhat more realistic.

That alone will take care of most of our realignment issues and perhaps it would reign in fan expectations while providing them with a realistic chance to win their strata.

But I guess that might occur when people quit buying cars they can't afford, or living in houses or subdivisions beyond their means, just so they can say "We're just as good as you are!" If you can't be happy being who you are then you are sucker for every dumb*** delusion and scheme that comes along.

It reminds me of a really old Beverly Hillbillies spawned joke from the 60's. A newly rich hillbilly family buys a house in the Hamptons. On a pretty Saturday afternoon their barefoot children wandered into the large yard of their neighbor and the son said to the neighbor, "Hey mister, we are just as good as you are. You have a 2 million dollar home and we have one. You have a yacht and we have one. You have a chauffeur and we have one too." The neighbor replied, "That's right son now go on back home." But the kid just stood there for a minute and then said, "Mister I think we're better than you!" The neighbor said, "I doubt that! How come you think so?" The kid replied, "We don't have no hillbillies living next to us!"

I find cars, home purchases, some clothes purchases, and college football ticket holders, especially tailgaters, generally fall into the same category.

Take care, JR

Society is a giant girth measuring contest, it's true. You shouldn't go into debt unless it's worth it.
04-18-2017 06:24 PM
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Post: #17
RE: Sports venues are money losers
(04-18-2017 05:45 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 12:27 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The articles apply to baseball ball parks; however, it can easily be applied to stadium projects for FB and most likely other sporting venues too.

http://www.richmond.com/opinion/our-opin...af399.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-ballpar...1491912002

The economic projections never pan out. How many universities screw themselves over trying to compete with the FB and BB factories who are only too happy to continue ratcheting up the costs. Out of all schools playing in the revenue sports conferences of FBS (and the main BB counterpart league), only 20 to 30 can actually afford our current levels. UMD is a mess. Rutgers is a mess. Cal-Berkeley is a mess. Vast majority of these schools playing at the highest levels are taking from the general funds to subsidize athletics.

Couple all this with the realities that 1) tuition costs continue to rise at rates higher than annual inflation, 2) states are funding public universities at lower levels than they have in decades and 3) people are wising up to false narrative that all college is good - no matter what degree choice you make.

I don't see how all of this is sustainable over the long term.

Football stadiums are money losers, especially non-domes. Arenas can be very profitable. Staples Center has 124-167 dates for basketball and hockey alone, let alone concerts and other events.

The football domes at NDSU and UND were justified in part as emergency centers. They have been used for flood preparation and as an emergency shelter for blizzards and others times in distress when the hotels and schools can't hold them. The ability of hold an indoors community convocation is something that is deemed very important in northern prairie climes and not just as economic and convention engines.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2017 06:47 PM by NoDak.)
04-18-2017 06:46 PM
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Post: #18
RE: Sports venues are money losers
I was referring to pro sports sized domes. College domes see a ton of use. A pro sports dome won't see much use, though more than an outdoor stadium.
04-18-2017 06:57 PM
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Post: #19
RE: Sports venues are money losers
Read the book Field of Schemes if you'd like a good read on the subject.
04-18-2017 06:59 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Sports venues are money losers
Arenas can be profitable but you really have to be careful about the decisions you make.

AState elected to make it's facility capable of hosting indoor track. That's a nice benefit for the team getting to have home meets and many years we were the only program in our conference capable of hosting an indoor meet so the community benefitted from hosting all the teams. But that same capability means there aren't many lower level seats in comparison to most similar sized facilities which hurts revenue potential.
04-18-2017 07:30 PM
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