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Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-19-2017 09:23 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  why research matters to a meaningful degree in the context of collegiate athletics

It has already been given to you, by myself and others multiple times.

That you reject it or refuse to understand it or are looking for some "deeper truth", is not our problem. It is your problem.

(04-19-2017 09:23 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  it has zero/very close to zero impact on the vast majority of student's educations, and one school's research prowess has virtually no impact on the research prowess of its conference mates.

The falseness of your position is that you equate these trivially true statements as somehow "proving" that research doesn't matter in conference affiliation.

You miss the point, as I've told you before.

(04-19-2017 09:23 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  mediocre academics.

For this to be correct, you need to use some personal definition for "academics" that you've tuned to for that specifically purpose.

(04-19-2017 09:23 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  The fact of the matter is that most students learn the most from on the job training after they graduate.

That's trivially true of every undergraduate at every school. But the point of why an undergraduate degree is valuable, of course, is that in order to get the job, you have to have the degree.



(04-20-2017 09:13 AM)Phlipper33 Wrote:  Not because it helps the other schools, but mainly because they want to associate with similar schools as themselves

Exactly correct.

This is the simple reality that escapes nzm. It's why JHU's and Maryland's presidents were ecstatic about getting to associate with the Big Ten.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2017 10:26 AM by MplsBison.)
04-20-2017 10:24 AM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-19-2017 09:23 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(04-19-2017 10:18 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Glad you now understand that research is a critically important factor for being added to conferences like the Big Ten and PAC, and to a lesser extent the rest of the P5 (would have said the ACC too, but high research adds like Pitt are offset by low research adds like Syracuse).
1. Yup. The ACC was too busy educating students. After all, *sonebody* has to work in management 03-razz

2. Ahhhh, the desperate personal attack.

You **still** have yet to put forth a coherent argument as to why research matters to a meaningful degree in the context of collegiate athletics. But you have, however slung several personal attacks and admitted that research at one school doesn't impact another.

3. My position is that research doesn't matter for conference affiliation. The B1G made a big deal about the CIC and AAU because research is the vaguely academic-sounding metric where the B1G excels. Therefore, it's s natural sales pitch to increase school pride. But at the end of the day, it has zero/very close to zero impact on the vast majority of student's educations, and one school's research prowess has virtually no impact on the research prowess of its conference mates. That truth extends beyond just conference affiliation to other organizations as well.

Every conference overplays the areas where they excel - as does virtually every organization on the planet. It's easy to score free points from people who drink the look aid by blurring causation and correlation.

And before you get high and mighty and start pounding your chest about <insert B1G school name here>'s research numbers, the B1G is good at research because it consists of HUGE state schools w/ mostly mediocre academics. The fact that they're big matters because they can spread the cost of research over a wide student base. The fact that they're public matters because public schools are far more likely to have mission statements that involving bettering the lives of state residents (vs the students) because the residents who shelled out tax dollars for the school want the highest RoI possible. And having a mission statement that focuses on bettering the lives of state residents is conducive to research because innovation is the result of research, and it leads to better goods and services and therefore more happiness amongst the general population. And lastly, being at least mediocre means that the schools aren't chronically under-funded.

The fact of the matter is that most students learn the most from on the job training after they graduate. And ignoring that learning, most students learn the most in school from text books (which are the same everywhere - from Harvard to the <insert terrible school here>) and from classmates. research doesn't play a huge role for a number of reasons, one of which being that you can't teach cutting edge concepts to students who have yet to understand the basics. It would be like building a house by starting w/ the roof (vs the foundation).

Of course you are spot on about nearly everything except I don't necessarily agree with everything in your last couple of paragraphs.

Undergrad research is more and more important at the undergrad level, in all fields, but especially in the sciences which are typically research disciplines to begin with. Most learning takes place in a lab in these fields where concepts taught in classrooms can be applied and truly begun to be understood. This is true at both the undergrad and graduate level. Many of these research oriented fields, like in the biological sciences, really need to be pursued at the graduate level too if you want to avoid hitting a professional ceiling very quickly, which means you better have some research experience when applying to grad school.

Large state schools aren't necessarily leaders in R&D though. Part of that has to do with established STEM graduate and professional schools with research focuses like med and engineering. It's not like there aren't elite private schools that are research leaders like Duke, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Cal Tech, CMU, and JHU. Nor are all large state schools research leaders: UCF, USF...pick any from most of the SEC. Although, I would agree that being a large state school with public subsidization lend to having a larger faculty so that you can bring in more research $ to begin with. But you need established professional graduate level stem schools with a critical mass of externally funded researchers. Places like BC, ND, and Syracuse will never appear at the top of research lists because of the lack of professional and graduate research schools. They just don't have the number of research faculty to make it atop those lists. That's why it is important to know what methodologies these lists and rankings use when actually trying to compare institutions. It is often, very often, an apples and oranges comparison.

Otherwise, you are absolutely correct. Athletic affiliation doesn't mean squat for any of this and all schools and conference play up what they excel out whether directly related or not. It's basic marketing.

Anyone suggesting being in one athletic conference over another helps them in their institution's research endeavors clearly is either intentionally being misleading for the sake of hyperbole or narrative, or is entirely or willfully ignorant of the process of conducting and funding research in academic settings.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2017 11:38 AM by CrazyPaco.)
04-20-2017 11:01 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-20-2017 11:01 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Athletic affiliation doesn't mean squat for any of this and all schools and conference play up what they excel out whether directly related or not. It's basic marketing.

Trivially true .... and completely missing the point of why research matters in conference affiliation. 07-coffee3
04-20-2017 11:03 AM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-20-2017 11:03 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-20-2017 11:01 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Athletic affiliation doesn't mean squat for any of this and all schools and conference play up what they excel out whether directly related or not. It's basic marketing.

Trivially true .... and completely missing the point of why research matters in conference affiliation. 07-coffee3

How is understanding the actual mechanics of academic research trivial when it is the basis of the discussion?

What is trivial is the coincidental shared modern quality of the majority of members of an early 20th century self-organizing collective of midwestern state land grant football playing universities, whose organization was undertaken and purposed to enhance the athletic prospects of its members.

What is nonsense is your application of this shared quality as some sort of larger purpose for the organization, particularly in the face of examples of membership changes that it has both failed and succeeded in making that blatantly contradict it. Furthermore, attempts to apply it broadly across the landscape of similarly purposed athletic organizations is utterly ridiculous.

You have never shown you know the slightest to which you speak on this topic, and continually show that you either refuse or are unable to education yourself on it, even when spoon fed to you.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2017 01:03 PM by CrazyPaco.)
04-20-2017 01:00 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-20-2017 01:00 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  How is understanding the actual mechanics of academic research trivial when it is the basis of the discussion?

It never was the basis of the discussion.

I agree that: 1) joining a conference of high research schools won't have any correlation with research advancement at your school, and 2) the members of the Big Ten didn't succeed in research because of their athletic association.


But, of course, neither "prove" that conference realignment decisions have nothing to do research. You and nzm are free to keep pounding this false drum for all that it's worth, though.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2017 04:07 PM by MplsBison.)
04-20-2017 03:46 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
Back on the main topic, the latest Lacrosse rankings show Syracuse #1, with 30 first place vote, Denver #2(1), Duke #3(2), OSU #4, UMD #5, Albany #6, Notre Dame #7, JHU #8, Penn State #9, Hofstra #10.

While the average top ten spot of the 3 ACC schools (#4) is higher than the average top ten spot of the 3 Big Ten schools other than John Hopkins (#6), that top ten makes it look look like the Big Ten Lacrosse competition is a reasonably good home for John Hopkins, given that decided it wanted a conference home.
04-24-2017 11:15 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-20-2017 04:43 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Were the relationship to end, who replaces them? Go west and make Air Force's life a little better? Try to pick off Denver?

There honestly aren't a ton of options --- which should be a concern for the B1G as we go forward. DU should be the #1 choice. Big East could then theoretically back-fill with Richmond or Detroit Mercy.
04-24-2017 11:35 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-24-2017 11:35 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-20-2017 04:43 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Were the relationship to end, who replaces them? Go west and make Air Force's life a little better? Try to pick off Denver?

There honestly aren't a ton of options --- which should be a concern for the B1G as we go forward. DU should be the #1 choice. Big East could then theoretically back-fill with Richmond or Detroit Mercy.

B1G lax will be fine w/ or w/o JHU. Yes, JHU is the biggest name in the conference and the replacement would 100% be a downgrade, but that doesn't mean that the conference would fall off a cliff - especially if it's a sport in which the conference was willing to invest. Short of surpassing a select couple of programs committed to winning, you can basically buy your ranking in lax. Look at Denver. And lax is a NY sport (I don't care what those Marylanders, Virginians, and Carolinans think!), but it is picking up in the Midwest. Frankly, it's too close to hockey and football to not eventually catch on.

So yes, the conference would take a step back, but it would still be fine.
04-25-2017 12:11 AM
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NoDak Online
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Post: #49
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
Another story on the Minnesota drive to add DI M/W lacrosse.

minnesota.cbslocal.com/2017/04/16/university-minnesota-gophers-mens-lacrosse/
04-26-2017 03:25 PM
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TerpsNPhoenix Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-26-2017 03:25 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Another story on the Minnesota drive to add DI M/W lacrosse.

minnesota.cbslocal.com/2017/04/16/university-minnesota-gophers-mens-lacrosse/

Potential is there but it is still roughly 5 years away (at least).
04-26-2017 04:46 PM
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