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UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
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Sparty84 Offline
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Post: #91
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:57 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I don't see where the line gets drawn
...
why isn't it bigoted to be against that?

To an alien in space, having a rule against murder might seem arbitrary.

But that is the entire point of society. That's why it comes down to a popular vote. The majority always gets to decide what is right. If you don't like what they decide, then leave the society.

I oont think that is true. The majority may pass a law. The judicial system has the authority to call it unconstitutional. The majority CANNOT oppress the minority in this country. Thank you founding fathers.
04-15-2017 04:04 PM
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Sparty84 Offline
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Post: #92
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 11:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

1. Wallace wasn't a bigot. Wallace was an opportunist and demagogue who was elected at the end of his career with the African American vote.

2. Enforcement of laws of equal access is a viable position.

3. Forcing a vision of morality on a free society is not. At the very point people are not free to shape their lives and associations by their personal understanding freedom dies. If they abide by the laws there should be no crisis. If they don't then they break the law. But, the forcing of associations crosses the line of what any free government can impose and at that point you become other (fascist comes to mind).

4. Note Bison's response of forcing the law with pitchforks. Note your own implication that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow uneducated. The greatest ally in the defeat of bigotry is the loss of fear of the object of your bigotry. Forcing the fearful to do anything only reinforces their world view. Going to school with, working with, living in neighborhoods with other kinds of people are ways in which through daily discovery you find that others are not so different from yourself. But labeling, and trying to intimidate people into accepting a position only brings about an equally willful defiance.

5. What I take exception to here is your attitude that shouting your position loudly enough is going to produce the effect you desire. It will not. Displaying your tolerance will beget tolerance, your patience will beget patience, and in the case of bigotry familiarity does not breed contempt, but rather understanding. My objection here is not toward the goals you set forth but the manner in which you seek to reach them. It is boorish, counterproductive, and almost as ignorant as the other position. Why ignorant? Because allowing a passion to overcome reason and compassion is just as destructive as bigotry.

Now young man with promise, put that in your pouch and smoke it over from time to time and you and your children might be able to avoid unnecessary violence and angst. Faith in the goodness that can be reached in others always produces longer lasting and better long term results than vilifying them. Dr. King knew this and practiced it even at the cost of his life, but the resultant shame and horror at the results of extremists turned the South against a century old evil. In the end it accomplished more than 4 years of civil war.

The tactics that you and others have employed in your argumentation labels and vilifies. Brother that is right out of Joseph Goebbels play book. I then read Bison's post and all I image are the brown shirts coming in the night for those the state labels as offenders. Remember it is just as evil when it comes from the left as when it comes from the right. If in your pursuit of what you believe to be justice you become what you abhor, at least in practice, was your methodology effective and worth it, or destructive of your ultimate aims and the catalyst for the loss of your soul?

I'm tired of hearing a nation that should be in constant debate as to what is right four our society taking polarized positions where all conversation ceases and battle lines are drawn. It is only a recipe for disaster.

JRsec - I respect your opinions quite a bit on this board.

However, this notion that people need to somehow be tolerant of intolerance is simply trying to find an excuse for discriminators to justify their bigotry.

During my freshman year of college in 1996, I lived next door to a transgender female and a gay male. As a sheltered kid from the Chicago suburbs, I thought this was insane and literally scary when I moved into my dorm. However, after about a week, I realized how much of an ignorant (funny that you apply that word liberally in your own response) idiot I had been towards LGBT people for my entire life up until that point. Unfortunately, I saw some of the most vile and awful discrimination that I have ever seen in any context against them and other LGBT people on campus... and mind you that Illinois was even then considered to be an extremely liberal university. So, no, I don't have any sympathy for the "You need to tolerate my intolerance!" argument. The intolerant people ruled the world with reckless abandon up until 5 years ago and now they're suddenly whining that they're being "forced" to change. I have zero sympathy. None. Nada. The people whining now are the ones that forced everyone else to change to their viewpoint for decades. The hateful discrimination that I saw against LGBT people with my own eyes has absolutely no justification and it's not merely "an issue of disagreement". It's bigotry and it has no place in this world. Period.

Preach brother preach.
04-15-2017 04:14 PM
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Topkat Offline
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Post: #93
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
I really believe JRsec has hit the nail on the head throughout this whole thread.

Everyone else in stating their positions has painted one side (party, demographic, etc), as bigot.

Not to be flip, but has anyone bothered to Google racism and/or bigotry among the LGBTQ community? Hint.. the same problems as society as a whole.

I agree with JRsec in that I think millennials (and those around that age), tend to apply their narrow societal views to the world as a whole based strictly on personal observations in their narrow geographic and young lives.

The bottom line, deep down inside people are the same. The same fears, same desires and unfortunately, almost always the same actions.

Try approaching the problem from the back end... people, and the way they will act towards others (the names may change), will always be the same.

That should get us started in approaching our differences from another (different) angle.
(This post was last modified: 04-15-2017 09:27 PM by Topkat.)
04-15-2017 06:38 PM
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #94
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-14-2017 07:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 01:41 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 08:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 08:03 PM)TerryD Wrote:  This bill died today:

There are strong constitutional concerns with this legislation given that the U.S. Supreme Court has firmly ruled on the issue, therefore House Bill 780 will be referred to the House Rules Committee and will not be heard,” Moore, the House speaker, said in a statement.

No joke, GOP NC legislators, no damn joke.

It should never have been an issue. But there will be a lingering to the threat. There are some ideas you can't unsay.

The "threat" came from the state (vs. the university), it was generally unenforceable (universities can move significantly faster than state legislatures - and the wording had massive loopholes in it), it didn't make it through committee, and it would have had at least a ~20 year delay.

I get that there are times when the toothpaste is out of the tube, but I have an extremely hard time thinking that this has any significance. This proposed bill was nothing more than empty grandstanding.

I call this era The Last Stand of The Angry Old White Man, before changing demographics, attitudes and beliefs (and rejection of others) unravel his world forever.

The Old Guard is just flailing around one last time on its way out the door to oblivion.

The irony of this post is not lost on this poster. Also, you misspelled New Guard.
04-15-2017 09:24 PM
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #95
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-15-2017 04:14 PM)Sparty84 Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

1. Wallace wasn't a bigot. Wallace was an opportunist and demagogue who was elected at the end of his career with the African American vote.

2. Enforcement of laws of equal access is a viable position.

3. Forcing a vision of morality on a free society is not. At the very point people are not free to shape their lives and associations by their personal understanding freedom dies. If they abide by the laws there should be no crisis. If they don't then they break the law. But, the forcing of associations crosses the line of what any free government can impose and at that point you become other (fascist comes to mind).

4. Note Bison's response of forcing the law with pitchforks. Note your own implication that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow uneducated. The greatest ally in the defeat of bigotry is the loss of fear of the object of your bigotry. Forcing the fearful to do anything only reinforces their world view. Going to school with, working with, living in neighborhoods with other kinds of people are ways in which through daily discovery you find that others are not so different from yourself. But labeling, and trying to intimidate people into accepting a position only brings about an equally willful defiance.

5. What I take exception to here is your attitude that shouting your position loudly enough is going to produce the effect you desire. It will not. Displaying your tolerance will beget tolerance, your patience will beget patience, and in the case of bigotry familiarity does not breed contempt, but rather understanding. My objection here is not toward the goals you set forth but the manner in which you seek to reach them. It is boorish, counterproductive, and almost as ignorant as the other position. Why ignorant? Because allowing a passion to overcome reason and compassion is just as destructive as bigotry.

Now young man with promise, put that in your pouch and smoke it over from time to time and you and your children might be able to avoid unnecessary violence and angst. Faith in the goodness that can be reached in others always produces longer lasting and better long term results than vilifying them. Dr. King knew this and practiced it even at the cost of his life, but the resultant shame and horror at the results of extremists turned the South against a century old evil. In the end it accomplished more than 4 years of civil war.

The tactics that you and others have employed in your argumentation labels and vilifies. Brother that is right out of Joseph Goebbels play book. I then read Bison's post and all I image are the brown shirts coming in the night for those the state labels as offenders. Remember it is just as evil when it comes from the left as when it comes from the right. If in your pursuit of what you believe to be justice you become what you abhor, at least in practice, was your methodology effective and worth it, or destructive of your ultimate aims and the catalyst for the loss of your soul?

I'm tired of hearing a nation that should be in constant debate as to what is right four our society taking polarized positions where all conversation ceases and battle lines are drawn. It is only a recipe for disaster.

JRsec - I respect your opinions quite a bit on this board.

However, this notion that people need to somehow be tolerant of intolerance is simply trying to find an excuse for discriminators to justify their bigotry.

During my freshman year of college in 1996, I lived next door to a transgender female and a gay male. As a sheltered kid from the Chicago suburbs, I thought this was insane and literally scary when I moved into my dorm. However, after about a week, I realized how much of an ignorant (funny that you apply that word liberally in your own response) idiot I had been towards LGBT people for my entire life up until that point. Unfortunately, I saw some of the most vile and awful discrimination that I have ever seen in any context against them and other LGBT people on campus... and mind you that Illinois was even then considered to be an extremely liberal university. So, no, I don't have any sympathy for the "You need to tolerate my intolerance!" argument. The intolerant people ruled the world with reckless abandon up until 5 years ago and now they're suddenly whining that they're being "forced" to change. I have zero sympathy. None. Nada. The people whining now are the ones that forced everyone else to change to their viewpoint for decades. The hateful discrimination that I saw against LGBT people with my own eyes has absolutely no justification and it's not merely "an issue of disagreement". It's bigotry and it has no place in this world. Period.

Preach brother preach.

Maybe instead of applauding someone like Frank, you read JR's posts. Maybe you'll learn something. Though I doubt you will.
04-15-2017 09:26 PM
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TerryD Online
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Post: #96
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-15-2017 09:24 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 07:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 01:41 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 08:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 08:03 PM)TerryD Wrote:  This bill died today:

There are strong constitutional concerns with this legislation given that the U.S. Supreme Court has firmly ruled on the issue, therefore House Bill 780 will be referred to the House Rules Committee and will not be heard,” Moore, the House speaker, said in a statement.

No joke, GOP NC legislators, no damn joke.

It should never have been an issue. But there will be a lingering to the threat. There are some ideas you can't unsay.

The "threat" came from the state (vs. the university), it was generally unenforceable (universities can move significantly faster than state legislatures - and the wording had massive loopholes in it), it didn't make it through committee, and it would have had at least a ~20 year delay.

I get that there are times when the toothpaste is out of the tube, but I have an extremely hard time thinking that this has any significance. This proposed bill was nothing more than empty grandstanding.

I call this era The Last Stand of The Angry Old White Man, before changing demographics, attitudes and beliefs (and rejection of others) unravel his world forever.

The Old Guard is just flailing around one last time on its way out the door to oblivion.

The irony of this post is not lost on this poster. Also, you misspelled New Guard.

There is sports and then there is real life. Two entirely different things.
04-16-2017 07:53 AM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #97
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-16-2017 07:53 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-15-2017 09:24 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 07:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 01:41 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 08:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  It should never have been an issue. But there will be a lingering to the threat. There are some ideas you can't unsay.

The "threat" came from the state (vs. the university), it was generally unenforceable (universities can move significantly faster than state legislatures - and the wording had massive loopholes in it), it didn't make it through committee, and it would have had at least a ~20 year delay.

I get that there are times when the toothpaste is out of the tube, but I have an extremely hard time thinking that this has any significance. This proposed bill was nothing more than empty grandstanding.

I call this era The Last Stand of The Angry Old White Man, before changing demographics, attitudes and beliefs (and rejection of others) unravel his world forever.

The Old Guard is just flailing around one last time on its way out the door to oblivion.

The irony of this post is not lost on this poster. Also, you misspelled New Guard.

There is sports and then there is real life. Two entirely different things.

Not according to ESPN.
04-17-2017 04:09 PM
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #98
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-16-2017 07:53 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-15-2017 09:24 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 07:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 01:41 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 08:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  It should never have been an issue. But there will be a lingering to the threat. There are some ideas you can't unsay.

The "threat" came from the state (vs. the university), it was generally unenforceable (universities can move significantly faster than state legislatures - and the wording had massive loopholes in it), it didn't make it through committee, and it would have had at least a ~20 year delay.

I get that there are times when the toothpaste is out of the tube, but I have an extremely hard time thinking that this has any significance. This proposed bill was nothing more than empty grandstanding.

I call this era The Last Stand of The Angry Old White Man, before changing demographics, attitudes and beliefs (and rejection of others) unravel his world forever.

The Old Guard is just flailing around one last time on its way out the door to oblivion.

The irony of this post is not lost on this poster. Also, you misspelled New Guard.

There is sports and then there is real life. Two entirely different things.

True, but it doesn't change the irony of your post.
04-17-2017 04:44 PM
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