Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
Author Message
MplsBison Offline
Banned

Posts: 16,648
Joined: Dec 2014
I Root For: NDSU/Minnesota
Location:
Post: #31
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
(04-13-2017 10:47 AM)zibby Wrote:  We don't need better-educated baristas. We should only be doing this for people going into science, engineering or other high-demand fields.

If only every person alive would get an engineering undergrad degree. The world would be perfect. There would be zero unemployment, zero crime, and zero suffering.

Why stop at post-secondary school???

You only get free high school if you're good at math, science, and technology! Otherwise, it's off to the trades, manual labor, or retail for you!


... back in real world ...
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 11:07 AM by MplsBison.)
04-13-2017 11:06 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Frank the Tank Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 10,603
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 454
I Root For: Illinois/DePaul
Location: Chicago
Post: #32
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
(04-12-2017 09:42 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  it applies to families with incomes under 125,000. A couple earning 65,000 each isn't exactly living in the lap of luxury. Better off than many but will still feel the costs of paying for college. If New York wants to help its citizens it should lower its extremely high taxes. Maybe offer some kind of incentive for students getting good grades.

That's why I believe that the plan as proposed probably won't have as huge of an impact as might be expected. It would make sense that middle-tier private universities are going to be most at risk since they probably draw a fair number of students from the $125,000-and-under pool. However, it's probably not going to have that much effect on, say, schools in the top 100 or so of the US News rankings. Syracuse, BU and the Patriot League-type schools (much less the Ivy League schools) likely won't be losing many of their students to the SUNY schools since they're already drawing from a base of families that are willing to pay much higher out-of-pocket costs compared to the SUNY institutions already.
04-13-2017 12:02 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
zibby Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 2,325
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 64
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #33
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
(04-13-2017 11:06 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:47 AM)zibby Wrote:  We don't need better-educated baristas. We should only be doing this for people going into science, engineering or other high-demand fields.

If only every person alive would get an engineering undergrad degree. The world would be perfect. There would be zero unemployment, zero crime, and zero suffering.

Why stop at post-secondary school???

You only get free high school if you're good at math, science, and technology! Otherwise, it's off to the trades, manual labor, or retail for you!


... back in real world ...

Ah yes, the real world, where people with art history and sociology degrees earn huge salaries and pay back more in taxes than what was spent to educate them.
04-13-2017 12:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
The Cutter of Bish Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,857
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 78
I Root For: the little guy
Location:
Post: #34
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
(04-13-2017 10:47 AM)zibby Wrote:  Who cares if some legitimately rich kid gets free tuition? If he or she stays in New York the state will benefit.

Or, some really smart rich kid. Similar to an old NJ program (and helped catapult TCNJ into a semi-elite level).

Free tuition isn't that radical, given the changes in higher education. Financial aid was a big player...it opened up schooling to a majority of the population. States expanding their assistance programs another big step. Some states (like PA) all but guaranteed enrollment into state system schools if certain qualifications were met.

So, this has been coming. In some places, tuition to two-year schools can be free or heavily discounted with certain met qualifications.

Where the issues arise will be accreditation and continued funding, and this is where the state and federal governments screw their partners, forcing schools to admit students that wouldn't qualify for enrollment otherwise, seeing them drop out, and the hit in the data causing a stir with funding and accreditation. This has been going on in the two-year schools for some time now...still cheaper than four years will ever be...still as underutilized as its ever been...still overlooked and underappreciated. The four-year schools are going to HATE that part of programs like this. It essentially locks in schools already rated/tiered. Buffalo, Stony Brook, and Binghamton can all tell these applicants they're entitled to SUNY education, just not at that campus. They'll be fine, the others not so much.

^^^And it works out that way for the top campuses. Something similar in PA helped Penn State expand enrollment at their branch campuses and repulse students from Main Campus. Penn State's main campus is very tough to get into now. Back in the early 90's...different story.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 12:58 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
04-13-2017 12:45 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Frank the Tank Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 10,603
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 454
I Root For: Illinois/DePaul
Location: Chicago
Post: #35
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
(04-13-2017 12:16 PM)zibby Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:06 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:47 AM)zibby Wrote:  We don't need better-educated baristas. We should only be doing this for people going into science, engineering or other high-demand fields.

If only every person alive would get an engineering undergrad degree. The world would be perfect. There would be zero unemployment, zero crime, and zero suffering.

Why stop at post-secondary school???

You only get free high school if you're good at math, science, and technology! Otherwise, it's off to the trades, manual labor, or retail for you!


... back in real world ...

Ah yes, the real world, where people with art history and sociology degrees earn huge salaries and pay back more in taxes than what was spent to educate them.

I think there are some false equivalencies on both ends. We do need more STEM graduates (or more accurately, the "TEM" portion since the "S" majors actually don't have much better jobs prospects than their liberal arts counterparts if they don't go to medical school), but that also doesn't mean that liberal arts majors all end up as over-credentialed baristas.

For the STEM fields, it's not really a matter of tuition prices being the holdup. On a pure financial ROI basis, simply paying in-state tuition at your home state flagship school and majoring in engineering or computer science is going to pay off better than going to virtually any school that isn't in the Ivy League or at an Ivy-level (e.g. Stanford, MIT, University of Chicago, etc.). That has been true for decades. The Wall Street Journal had a study a few years ago about where prestigious schools made an impact the most on salaries and it was very clear that it had the LEAST impact in engineering by far. (For instance, there was effectively no difference in the salary prospects for an engineering grad from Penn compared to one from Texas A&M, yet going to Penn out-of-pocket would cost over 5 times more than in-state tuition at A&M.) This is contrast to business and liberal arts majors, which is where the prestige of your undergrad school DID matter significantly.

Regardless, in a normal rational economic market, the number of STEM majors in college would have risen long ago since such majors (at least the "TEM" majors) have long been the highest-paid coming out of undergrad. However, normal rational economic principles don't apply in the education context because it neglects the fact that STEM majors are simply HARD unless you have the requisite math and science aptitude... and they're still hard even if you *do* have such aptitude. I scored very well on the math portions on the SAT and ACT, yet the couple of computer science classes that I took at Illinois completely destroyed me. (As a result, I became a blood-sucking finance major.) The challenge at most great engineering programs isn't getting IN. Instead, the challenge is getting OUT.

As a result, I don't think free tuition really can change much about whether students would pursue STEM majors or not. The economic incentive in the form of immediate higher salaries is already there (and has been there for a long time) and a disproportionate number of the wealthiest people in the world have STEM backgrounds, yet it hasn't really budged the enrollment numbers. Maybe that means that engineering curriculums are almost too hostile on the back-end (where they almost delight in weeding people out) or maybe we're not providing our kids with the requisite math skills to achieve success in engineering in the first place on the front end. It's likely a mix of both.

Believe me - if my own kids ask me whether they should go to law school, I'll tell them, "F*ck no! Study your math and go into computer science or engineering." However, it's clear that tuition cost isn't the issue in there not being enough STEM majors and the higher salaries for such majors haven't translated in larger enrollment numbers. It's much more fundamental that there are a lot of students (whether right or wrong) that literally cannot handle that type of curriculum, in which case can you really tell everyone outside of that group (which is the vast majority of high school graduates) that they shouldn't be going to college at all? There are still a lot of jobs in this world that are outside of the STEM fields and many of them require a college degree for *hiring* (which is admittedly distinct from whether that college degree is really necessary for those jobs' *skillsets*, but that's an entirely separate discussion).
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 02:21 PM by Frank the Tank.)
04-13-2017 02:17 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
zibby Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 2,325
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 64
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #36
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
(04-13-2017 02:17 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I scored very well on the math portions on the SAT and ACT, yet the couple of computer science classes that I took at Illinois completely destroyed me. (As a result, I became a blood-sucking finance major.)

The same thing happened to me. I started out in computer science but couldn't hack it (pun intended). But maybe I could have if I didn't have to spend 20 hours a week working at a grocery store.

My main gripe is that if I have a child, he or she won't benefit from this program. But I'm sure my taxes will go up to pay for people to take free communication and theatre classes. Meanwhile, my wife is still paying off her student loans.
04-13-2017 03:03 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Stugray2 Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,230
Joined: Jan 2017
Reputation: 44
I Root For: tOSU SJSU
Location:
Post: #37
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
LOL, for me it was a graduate class in Heat Equations as part of my Nuclear (Mechanical) Engineering degree program. I bailed out to Computer Science. That is the common bail out degree. And as it turned out very lucrative for me - living in Silicon Valley since 1990 has been a good deal.

The STEM cannot be separated from H1-B Visa issue. Industry makes up for the shortage of Engineer and Computer Specialists by importing them from India especially (also Europe, some large numbers also China and Russia, which causes security problems). In India they graduate something like 450,000 Engineers annually, which they export large numbers to the US, UK, and elsewhere. The US graduates a quarter of that. Industry likes that because it also holds down wages and covers up the lack of development of home grown talent. It also means they can be brutal on hiring and firing, with a deeper pool. But it also does mean more talent, which is a huge benefit. As somebody married to an immigrant in the field, I can add that to the benefit list.

I do not think we can quickly wean ourselves from the H1-B, but we should make an attempt to do so. But this is where the harm in funding schemes to give students money via loans and grants has retarded our ability to change. We have removed a lot of market pressure on schools to adjust to demand. By increasing the pool of funded students (both a good thing and a bad) without increasing seats, we have allowed schools, especially public (e.g., the UC system) to not keep the same heavy tilt toward LA major slots against STEM. where the adjustment has been more profound is among the private schools, such as USC, Stanford, and locally even Catholic schools like Santa Clara, in tilting STEM. Stanford is essentially a Polytech now. Market forces push schools toward being vocational. Removing the pressure of the market allows them to be insulated from those forces. The extra money is directly related to the rise in tuition at a much faster rate than inflation.

It always bothers me when more public money is directed toward aid, and not toward the expansion of capacity or toward incentivizing schools to map closer to vocational needs.

BTW, there is a need for a large number of Liberal arts majors, which is the elementary to high school teachers. The lack of STEM majors means that we are short of STEM certified teachers, so the problem of mismatch in major availability is still a problem even in this field. And of course we need people to become Professors in the field, although many fewer than we are producing.

Note: Science majors, especially in Chem and Bio, are often pre-Med. So I must differ with Frank on that definition.

Basically my point is, adding money to the student side of the equation (Demand side) does nothing on the seat capacity in the fields most needed (Supply side). More money chasing the same number of items on the market will equal price rises. See link below. The State of NY scheme is another demand side increase.

https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/.../sr733.pdf
04-13-2017 04:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
nzmorange Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,000
Joined: Sep 2012
Reputation: 279
I Root For: UAB
Location:
Post: #38
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
(04-13-2017 04:08 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  LOL, for me it was a graduate class in Heat Equations as part of my Nuclear (Mechanical) Engineering degree program. I bailed out to Computer Science. That is the common bail out degree. And as it turned out very lucrative for me - living in Silicon Valley since 1990 has been a good deal.

The STEM cannot be separated from H1-B Visa issue. Industry makes up for the shortage of Engineer and Computer Specialists by importing them from India especially (also Europe, some large numbers also China and Russia, which causes security problems). In India they graduate something like 450,000 Engineers annually, which they export large numbers to the US, UK, and elsewhere. The US graduates a quarter of that. Industry likes that because it also holds down wages and covers up the lack of development of home grown talent. It also means they can be brutal on hiring and firing, with a deeper pool. But it also does mean more talent, which is a huge benefit. As somebody married to an immigrant in the field, I can add that to the benefit list.

I do not think we can quickly wean ourselves from the H1-B, but we should make an attempt to do so. But this is where the harm in funding schemes to give students money via loans and grants has retarded our ability to change. We have removed a lot of market pressure on schools to adjust to demand. By increasing the pool of funded students (both a good thing and a bad) without increasing seats, we have allowed schools, especially public (e.g., the UC system) to not keep the same heavy tilt toward LA major slots against STEM. where the adjustment has been more profound is among the private schools, such as USC, Stanford, and locally even Catholic schools like Santa Clara, in tilting STEM. Stanford is essentially a Polytech now. Market forces push schools toward being vocational. Removing the pressure of the market allows them to be insulated from those forces. The extra money is directly related to the rise in tuition at a much faster rate than inflation.

It always bothers me when more public money is directed toward aid, and not toward the expansion of capacity or toward incentivizing schools to map closer to vocational needs.

BTW, there is a need for a large number of Liberal arts majors, which is the elementary to high school teachers. The lack of STEM majors means that we are short of STEM certified teachers, so the problem of mismatch in major availability is still a problem even in this field. And of course we need people to become Professors in the field, although many fewer than we are producing.

Note: Science majors, especially in Chem and Bio, are often pre-Med. So I must differ with Frank on that definition.

Basically my point is, adding money to the student side of the equation (Demand side) does nothing on the seat capacity in the fields most needed (Supply side). More money chasing the same number of items on the market will equal price rises. See link below. The State of NY scheme is another demand side increase.

https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/.../sr733.pdf

I don't think it's just a numbers issue. It's also a quality issue. Only X% of the population is cut out for anything. The trick is making sure as many of that X% has access.
04-13-2017 06:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Stugray2 Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,230
Joined: Jan 2017
Reputation: 44
I Root For: tOSU SJSU
Location:
Post: #39
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
In California it's a numbers thing. The UC system nominally takes the top 8% out of High School. But in reality, many are not given access to the majors they want. especially in STEM and are overflowed into a non-declared liberal arts major at the least desired campus (Merced). Most reject such an offer. The actual access rate is lower, closer to the top 5% of the state and the top 2% for STEM slots.

But yes, California is not the bulk of the nation. We have so many high educated people, who's kids are competing for an insufficient number if UC slots. It is what it is. I know in the Midwest the demographics are negative, and they are scrambling to find qualified people for the seats. The opposite issue.

But as for the qualified people for STEM spots, I think it also goes to the lack of credential HS teachers, and the lack of emphasis. It will take decades to build up the domestically developed talent. We also have cultural issues to overcome. We are not demanding enough of our kids in their development academically, and tend to try to be too nice to them. We are lazy and comfortable. How many of you make your teens clean the toilets for example? How many of you insist they play an instrument? How many say it's OK to not bring home at least a 3.5 report card? How many do not send your kids to prep for SAT? How many of us let them play video games without having gone over their entire homework set with you? We all complain about how much more competitive the market is, but we do little or nothing to prepare our kids.

But I think throwing in the towel and saying there are not enough to fill the slots is being a surrender monkey. We have not even made an effort to fill the slots.
04-13-2017 06:47 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bullet Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 22,935
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 481
I Root For: Texas, UK, UGA
Location:
Post: #40
RE: How will NY's offer of free tuition to state resident affect the SUNY's?
(04-12-2017 03:51 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  It adds to the money being thrown at a fixed number of college seats. Net effect higher price of tuition, greater debt for students and higher taxes.

This does not address the fundamental issue which is the number of residential seats and the availability of industry useful major slots.

It could be beneficial for the SUNYs. They will have a higher quality pool to choose from. That has happened in Georgia with the HOPE scholarship. More good students are staying in state.

I think it will be bad for the open/semi-open admission universities. They will get more unprepared, unmotivated students.
04-14-2017 07:30 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2017 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2017 MyBB Group.