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AAC- Big East challenge
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stever20 Online
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Post: #31
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
I say using a broad label of p6 for OOC wins is overrated. Always have and always will. The individual teams matter for OOC, not what conference those teams are in. It's your ENTIRE OOC that matters, not just vs the P6. Yet Conferences entire OOC record is what's important. Overall OOC record is what's important. not OOC record just vs P6. But Big East fans for some reason just want to use blindly the P6 record- and forget about anything else.

I've NEVER said that OOC is overrated. In fact, I've said more than a lot of others that it is very important.
04-11-2017 11:10 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-11-2017 09:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think a separate discussion would be where would Creighton, Xavier, and Butler be if the Big East hadn't realigned? The A10 would have had their 2013 lineup with VCU, Butler, Xavier, Dayton, and Rhode Island- all 5 making tourney this year.

Creighton in the MVC is the one that you really would have worried about. Their magical 2013-14 season doesn't happen(McDermott I think turns pro almost for sure).

we don't know that. if URI had to play Butler and Xavier that could be 2 more loses for them. Resulting in lower seed in A10 tourney and not winning it.
04-16-2017 10:51 AM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #33
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-16-2017 10:51 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  
(04-11-2017 09:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think a separate discussion would be where would Creighton, Xavier, and Butler be if the Big East hadn't realigned? The A10 would have had their 2013 lineup with VCU, Butler, Xavier, Dayton, and Rhode Island- all 5 making tourney this year.

Creighton in the MVC is the one that you really would have worried about. Their magical 2013-14 season doesn't happen(McDermott I think turns pro almost for sure).

we don't know that. if URI had to play Butler and Xavier that could be 2 more loses for them. Resulting in lower seed in A10 tourney and not winning it.

but SOS would have been much stronger. A10 would have been positioned very well.
04-17-2017 03:21 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #34
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
I just love idiots who think the RR is so ******* precious and needs to be protected at all costs.
04-20-2017 10:56 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-20-2017 10:56 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just love idiots who think the RR is so ******* precious and needs to be protected at all costs.

The round robin is valuable due to the guaranteed home/home for all teams, which is a conference benefit considering all teams have an athletic focus towards men's basketball. It does not need to be protected at all costs, but until a realistic "fit" emerges, the potential advantage of adding programs via expansion is not as valuable as keeping the current collection of teams and the round robin set up.

Having a round robin in college basketball is the ideal conference set up.

Hypothetically, adding a VCU/Dayton would not be worth it to eliminate the round robin - so, if/when expansion occurs, the additions need to outweigh the costs of getting rid of it.
04-23-2017 01:47 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #36
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-23-2017 01:47 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-20-2017 10:56 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just love idiots who think the RR is so ******* precious and needs to be protected at all costs.

The round robin is valuable due to the guaranteed home/home for all teams, which is a conference benefit considering all teams have an athletic focus towards men's basketball. It does not need to be protected at all costs, but until a realistic "fit" emerges, the potential advantage of adding programs via expansion is not as valuable as keeping the current collection of teams and the round robin set up.

Having a round robin in college basketball is the ideal conference set up.

Hypothetically, adding a VCU/Dayton would not be worth it to eliminate the round robin - so, if/when expansion occurs, the additions need to outweigh the costs of getting rid of it.

Having 12 teams and making it where top teams don't have to face the RPI killers twice is a big advantage competitively along with the fact that it helps TV out. Just look at the tv ratings. Sorry but even if the games turn out closer than they should- games like DePaul/Villanova just aren't good.

People say look at the SEC and how 14 doesn't help them. I say look at the Pac 12. Look at USC this year. Got in as the last team in the tourney. They had 4 games with the Washington schools, going 4-0. Had single games with Cal, Stanford, Utah, and Colorado. Going 2-2. If they had the round robin, getting 2 more losses could have been fatal for them. Or look at P12 2016- where they got 7 teams in the tourney because they had a 3 way tie at 9-9 for 6th.

I think the thing that is really funny is how folks who love the RR haven't really seen the bad side of the RR yet. Wait until you see a year like the WCC had in 2016 where 5th place team was 8-10. Or a year where 9-9 gets you in 4th place.
04-24-2017 10:54 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-24-2017 10:54 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 01:47 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-20-2017 10:56 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just love idiots who think the RR is so ******* precious and needs to be protected at all costs.

The round robin is valuable due to the guaranteed home/home for all teams, which is a conference benefit considering all teams have an athletic focus towards men's basketball. It does not need to be protected at all costs, but until a realistic "fit" emerges, the potential advantage of adding programs via expansion is not as valuable as keeping the current collection of teams and the round robin set up.

Having a round robin in college basketball is the ideal conference set up.

Hypothetically, adding a VCU/Dayton would not be worth it to eliminate the round robin - so, if/when expansion occurs, the additions need to outweigh the costs of getting rid of it.

Having 12 teams and making it where top teams don't have to face the RPI killers twice is a big advantage competitively along with the fact that it helps TV out. Just look at the tv ratings. Sorry but even if the games turn out closer than they should- games like DePaul/Villanova just aren't good.

People say look at the SEC and how 14 doesn't help them. I say look at the Pac 12. Look at USC this year. Got in as the last team in the tourney. They had 4 games with the Washington schools, going 4-0. Had single games with Cal, Stanford, Utah, and Colorado. Going 2-2. If they had the round robin, getting 2 more losses could have been fatal for them. Or look at P12 2016- where they got 7 teams in the tourney because they had a 3 way tie at 9-9 for 6th.

I think the thing that is really funny is how folks who love the RR haven't really seen the bad side of the RR yet. Wait until you see a year like the WCC had in 2016 where 5th place team was 8-10. Or a year where 9-9 gets you in 4th place.

So close games are still not good because the top teams should not play bottom teams? Got it.

This isn't a round-robin debate as much as it is there being no quality programs worthy of being added to our current membership. VCU is a public. Saint Louis is at a low point in basketball. Dayton just lost Archie and is too close to Cincinnati. Any new addition would be added to the 8-12 spots in the conference. That's not improving the quality of the league, nor the value. Until a candidate emerges, we can sit tight at 10 members.

The fact is that the Big East has not had a single season where having ten members hurt their programs or their chances of placing teams in the tournament. The Big East is not the WCC. Reputation, prestige and on the court results do matter.
04-24-2017 01:31 PM
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hoops22 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
The thing is, you don't know what Dayton, VCU or St. Louis would become if they had the money, status, and exposure that BE membership would give them. As good as Xavier, Butler and Creighton already were, they clearly stepped it up a notch once they joined the league. You can't discount what it might mean to those other teams if they upgraded from the A10.

Also, concerning VCU, I don't care a bit about the whole public/private thing. I think they would be a great add for a number of reasons, and hope they get the invite one day.
04-24-2017 08:53 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #39
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-24-2017 01:31 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 10:54 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 01:47 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-20-2017 10:56 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just love idiots who think the RR is so ******* precious and needs to be protected at all costs.

The round robin is valuable due to the guaranteed home/home for all teams, which is a conference benefit considering all teams have an athletic focus towards men's basketball. It does not need to be protected at all costs, but until a realistic "fit" emerges, the potential advantage of adding programs via expansion is not as valuable as keeping the current collection of teams and the round robin set up.

Having a round robin in college basketball is the ideal conference set up.

Hypothetically, adding a VCU/Dayton would not be worth it to eliminate the round robin - so, if/when expansion occurs, the additions need to outweigh the costs of getting rid of it.

Having 12 teams and making it where top teams don't have to face the RPI killers twice is a big advantage competitively along with the fact that it helps TV out. Just look at the tv ratings. Sorry but even if the games turn out closer than they should- games like DePaul/Villanova just aren't good.

People say look at the SEC and how 14 doesn't help them. I say look at the Pac 12. Look at USC this year. Got in as the last team in the tourney. They had 4 games with the Washington schools, going 4-0. Had single games with Cal, Stanford, Utah, and Colorado. Going 2-2. If they had the round robin, getting 2 more losses could have been fatal for them. Or look at P12 2016- where they got 7 teams in the tourney because they had a 3 way tie at 9-9 for 6th.

I think the thing that is really funny is how folks who love the RR haven't really seen the bad side of the RR yet. Wait until you see a year like the WCC had in 2016 where 5th place team was 8-10. Or a year where 9-9 gets you in 4th place.
Any new addition would be added to the 8-12 spots in the conference.
Isn't that what OBE fans thought was going to be the case with Butler, Creighton, and Xavier?

And I would disagree with your statement that the BE hasn't had a season where 10 teams hasn't hurt the conference.
2013-14 season- St John's went 1-5 vs Villanova, Creighton, and Xavier- 0-3 on the road. If the league had 12 teams and instead of playing just 1 of those 3 road games, they had another game that they won, with how close they were- probably in the tourney.
2015-16 season- Marquette- went 1-5 vs Villanova, Butler, and Xavier- also 0-3 on the road. Same thing with them.

Definitely St John's as they were 1 of the 1st teams out of the tourney. Marquette in 2015-16 was probably 2 wins away.
04-25-2017 08:17 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-25-2017 08:17 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 01:31 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 10:54 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 01:47 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-20-2017 10:56 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just love idiots who think the RR is so ******* precious and needs to be protected at all costs.

The round robin is valuable due to the guaranteed home/home for all teams, which is a conference benefit considering all teams have an athletic focus towards men's basketball. It does not need to be protected at all costs, but until a realistic "fit" emerges, the potential advantage of adding programs via expansion is not as valuable as keeping the current collection of teams and the round robin set up.

Having a round robin in college basketball is the ideal conference set up.

Hypothetically, adding a VCU/Dayton would not be worth it to eliminate the round robin - so, if/when expansion occurs, the additions need to outweigh the costs of getting rid of it.

Having 12 teams and making it where top teams don't have to face the RPI killers twice is a big advantage competitively along with the fact that it helps TV out. Just look at the tv ratings. Sorry but even if the games turn out closer than they should- games like DePaul/Villanova just aren't good.

People say look at the SEC and how 14 doesn't help them. I say look at the Pac 12. Look at USC this year. Got in as the last team in the tourney. They had 4 games with the Washington schools, going 4-0. Had single games with Cal, Stanford, Utah, and Colorado. Going 2-2. If they had the round robin, getting 2 more losses could have been fatal for them. Or look at P12 2016- where they got 7 teams in the tourney because they had a 3 way tie at 9-9 for 6th.

I think the thing that is really funny is how folks who love the RR haven't really seen the bad side of the RR yet. Wait until you see a year like the WCC had in 2016 where 5th place team was 8-10. Or a year where 9-9 gets you in 4th place.
Any new addition would be added to the 8-12 spots in the conference.
Isn't that what OBE fans thought was going to be the case with Butler, Creighton, and Xavier?

And I would disagree with your statement that the BE hasn't had a season where 10 teams hasn't hurt the conference.
2013-14 season- St John's went 1-5 vs Villanova, Creighton, and Xavier- 0-3 on the road. If the league had 12 teams and instead of playing just 1 of those 3 road games, they had another game that they won, with how close they were- probably in the tourney.
2015-16 season- Marquette- went 1-5 vs Villanova, Butler, and Xavier- also 0-3 on the road. Same thing with them.

Definitely St John's as they were 1 of the 1st teams out of the tourney. Marquette in 2015-16 was probably 2 wins away.

There's a lot of assumptions with that hypothesis, Stever. You're assuming had the league had more teams, that at least one of those three road games would be a win for either/both St. Johns and Marquette. I don't think Marquette deserved to be in the tournament in 15-16. We scheduled poorly OOC and didn't win enough games in conference to be legitimately considered.

While I will concede that I have no idea if adding two additional schools will either help or hurt the conference, I will definitely defend the argument that our current membership and set-up has not hurt us either. The ratio of number of teams into the tournament is one of the best for all conferences. That is undeniable. You can point to hypotheticals where the Big East could have been hurt had certain games occurred differently, but they did not. You cannot change history and you cannot change reality.

Adding teams to the Big East right now, in far advance of negotiation of our next contract, would be unwise. Once we approach our renegotiation phase, then we can seriously look at adding programs. But right now - at a time when Dayton, VCU, and Saint Louis all have hired new coaches in the past 12 months - would not be a proper investment on behalf of the conference.
04-25-2017 09:11 AM
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