(04-09-2017 03:07 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  The 11.99 that this freshman ran would not have gotten him to the state boys high school championships.... But, it would have been only a third of a second off the people who qualified for the NCAA championships this season.

Right; this is why I started this thread, which has not surprisingly taken a different path.

If you're a high school girl whose worked her ass off trying to run the fastest time in th state, should you be penalized just because you were born female? Because that is what will happen if people born as boys are permitted to compete as girls.

(04-09-2017 07:05 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  No, Trans kids should NEVER be excluded from the popular team sports for being Trans.

Who has said otherwise.

But you got sooo close. Let me help you:

Women should NEVER be excluded from playing because they're women.

(04-09-2017 09:09 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 05:38 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 02:32 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Those male abilities may diminish somewhat but they don't evaporate. See: those boys on hormones with the genital mutilations still beating the girls.

The science is still out on this. There was a study done which said that muscle does approach female levels along with testosterone.

I'd live to see the citation here. "approach female levels" for muscle is really damn vague. A sprinter has less muscle than a weight lifter.... And "approach" can mean a lot of things.

Quote:It's one of those things that we don't have the answer to yet. We know the muscle goes away with time and the fat collects differently, but the bone structure stays the same.

No, we don't know that.... You have a study which said "approaches" But keep in mind that a tans person with a T level of 270 is two things

1 - Nearly four times as high as the average woman
2 - Still within the IOC guidelines for competition.

Quote:Nobody really knows what all of that means to the total athlete, anything else beyond that is a guess based on an understanding that is based on "common sense" which could turn out to be hokum.

Or... It could be totally accurate that someone who has a mans build will compete better. I'm pretty sure this 9th grader is not naturally a woman who is 2 seconds faster than all the other women in the state.

Quote:An interesting take that I've heard about this was talked about on the radio the other day. Supposing the muscle and testosterone are around women's levels, is the bone structure difference enough to ban them? Differences in bone structure impact all athletes in every sport. How do you regulate bone structure?

If you were born a male you compete against males, if born female you can compete against females...

You are proposing blowing up womens athletics for 49.98% of the population (women) to accommodate 0.02% of the population (men who transition).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle...story.html

It's linked in the article.

I'm also not proposing anything. Just trying to take a more nuanced view.

(04-09-2017 07:05 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 05:49 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 05:41 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 05:38 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 02:32 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Those male abilities may diminish somewhat but they don't evaporate. See: those boys on hormones with the genital mutilations still beating the girls.

The science is still out on this. There was a study done which said that muscle does approach female levels along with testosterone.

It's one of those things that we don't have the answer to yet. We know the muscle goes away with time and the fat collects differently, but the bone structure stays the same. Nobody really knows what all of that means to the total athlete, anything else beyond that is a guess based on an understanding that is based on "common sense" which could turn out to be hokum.

An interesting take that I've heard about this was talked about on the radio the other day. Supposing the muscle and testosterone are around women's levels, is the bone structure difference enough to ban them? Differences in bone structure impact all athletes in every sport. How do you regulate bone structure?

this entire thread is retarded....

if the science isn't clear, shouldn't one assume 'they' shouldn't be allowed to compete until it's settled?

jfc....

#uncle

I really don't know. The organizations are in a no win situation either way.

No, Trans kids should NEVER be excluded from the popular team sports for being Trans.

They can also definitely compete in football, basketball, baseball, volleyball etc if they want. Just not necessarily on the team that they want to.

(04-09-2017 12:59 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-08-2017 05:33 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Tom,

Will you acknowledge that the male body has a substantial competitive advantage over the female body in track and field events?

If you are unable to accept and protect those that transition, then what's the point of debating the interior issues of that transition?

Not just directed at you, but at this board in general...

I won't "accept and protect those that transition". I'm not going to be bullied by a bunch of queers into supporting degeneracy. It will be met with resistance every ******* time.
I have 2 small children with a 3rd on the way. Call me a bigot. Call me a homophobe. I no longer give any f**ks.

(04-09-2017 07:05 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  No, Trans kids should NEVER be excluded from the popular team sports for being Trans.

I agree they shouldn't be excluded, but where should they play?

In the interest of fairness, it's really not acceptable for somebody who is - everywhere except for the brain - a boy to compete with a bunch of girls, especially in a case like the one in the OP where there has been no transitioning except for a name change.

(04-10-2017 06:59 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 12:59 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-08-2017 05:33 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Tom,

Will you acknowledge that the male body has a substantial competitive advantage over the female body in track and field events?

If you are unable to accept and protect those that transition, then what's the point of debating the interior issues of that transition?

Not just directed at you, but at this board in general...

I won't "accept and protect those that transition". I'm not going to be bullied by a bunch of queers into supporting degeneracy. It will be met with resistance every ******* time.
I have 2 small children with a 3rd on the way. Call me a bigot. Call me a homophobe. I no longer give any f**ks.

"This charged debate is timely because of a landmark rule change instituted by the International Olympic Committee this year. In Rio, transgender men (female-to-male athletes) will be allowed to compete without any restrictions (based on the sexist assumption, I suppose, that trans men could never dominate their sports)"

See the problem is this is not a scholarly article. And the idea that men are bigger, faster, and stronger than women is not sexist.... It's Biology! So a woman who becomes a man via hormones and surgury is not entering a playing field tilted in their direction.

Quote:To compete, a trans woman athlete is required only to declare her gender as “female” and have testosterone levels comparable to or below those of cisgender women.

This is an outright lie.... The 270 is not "comparable or below" those of women. The fact is there might be a handful of healthy women with levels near that and the average woman is at 70.

Quote:“Together these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism,”

Nobody here never said there would be no impact. But, if you go through to the study itself you learn a few things

1) They only studied *8* people
2) They Had them run four events
3) They only reported several of them for each event
4) They merely compared times run at the same events, years apart, without adjusting for weather and conditions.
5) They used AG as if it were an authoritative measurement

They did not measure T, calculate muscle mass, do real performance testing... This was a "study" trying to find a conclusion.

(04-10-2017 08:08 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(04-10-2017 06:59 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 12:59 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-08-2017 05:33 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Tom,

Will you acknowledge that the male body has a substantial competitive advantage over the female body in track and field events?

If you are unable to accept and protect those that transition, then what's the point of debating the interior issues of that transition?

Not just directed at you, but at this board in general...

I won't "accept and protect those that transition". I'm not going to be bullied by a bunch of queers into supporting degeneracy. It will be met with resistance every ******* time.
I have 2 small children with a 3rd on the way. Call me a bigot. Call me a homophobe. I no longer give any f**ks.

"This charged debate is timely because of a landmark rule change instituted by the International Olympic Committee this year. In Rio, transgender men (female-to-male athletes) will be allowed to compete without any restrictions (based on the sexist assumption, I suppose, that trans men could never dominate their sports)"

See the problem is this is not a scholarly article. And the idea that men are bigger, faster, and stronger than women is not sexist.... It's Biology! So a woman who becomes a man via hormones and surgury is not entering a playing field tilted in their direction.

Quote:To compete, a trans woman athlete is required only to declare her gender as “female” and have testosterone levels comparable to or below those of cisgender women.

This is an outright lie.... The 270 is not "comparable or below" those of women. The fact is there might be a handful of healthy women with levels near that and the average woman is at 70.

Quote:“Together these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism,”

Nobody here never said there would be no impact. But, if you go through to the study itself you learn a few things

1) They only studied *8* people
2) They Had them run four events
3) They only reported several of them for each event
4) They merely compared times run at the same events, years apart, without adjusting for weather and conditions.
5) They used AG as if it were an authoritative measurement

They did not measure T, calculate muscle mass, do real performance testing... This was a "study" trying to find a conclusion.

lol at a sample size of 8....especially if they once had 8....

IMO, it seems one must transform COMPLETELY to be considered trans. Anything less is just playing the game and implies one is not serious about the transformation.

It's beautiful watching this degeneracy unravel.

(04-10-2017 08:05 AM)Chappy Wrote:  

(04-09-2017 07:05 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  No, Trans kids should NEVER be excluded from the popular team sports for being Trans.

I agree they shouldn't be excluded, but where should they play?

In the interest of fairness, it's really not acceptable for somebody who is - everywhere except for the brain - a boy to compete with a bunch of girls, especially in a case like the one in the OP where there has been no transitioning except for a name change.

Physically, they have a male brain. Just a little mix up in the "feels" part.

Photo from the last meet...

(04-10-2017 01:55 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Photo from the last meet...

seriously??? If I were those girls, I would refuse to compete with him. Thats some major bull****.

(04-10-2017 01:58 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(04-10-2017 01:55 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Photo from the last meet...

seriously??? If I were those girls, I would refuse to compete with him. Thats some major bull****.

It makes a mockery of the sport.

Australian doctor claims that teens are trying to be transgender just because it's trendy, and that 75% won't need treatment.

Quote:Adolescents are “trying out being transgender” to stand out or gain attention from their peers, psychiatrist Stephen Stathis told the Courier Mail last week. “One said to me, ‘Dr. Steve … I want to be transgender, it’s the new black,” he recalled.

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/gender-e...ts-trendy/

(04-12-2017 12:24 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Australian doctor claims that teens are trying to be transgender just because it's trendy, and that 75% won't need treatment.

Quote:Adolescents are “trying out being transgender” to stand out or gain attention from their peers, psychiatrist Stephen Stathis told the Courier Mail last week. “One said to me, ‘Dr. Steve … I want to be transgender, it’s the new black,” he recalled.

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/gender-e...ts-trendy/

Same thing with gay.

Um, sorry. I mean homosexual. No, that's not right either. They freely admit to being gay, go to gay bars, live the lifestyle, join the GSA.

Right the first time. Gay.

But they move on to marrying women and living a normal straight life and put the experimenting behind them.

Ah hell, I don't know. Toms confused the whole thing.

But the doctor is right. It's trendy and most wont need the dreaded "pray the gay away".

(04-12-2017 07:24 AM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 12:24 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Australian doctor claims that teens are trying to be transgender just because it's trendy, and that 75% won't need treatment.

Quote:Adolescents are “trying out being transgender” to stand out or gain attention from their peers, psychiatrist Stephen Stathis told the Courier Mail last week. “One said to me, ‘Dr. Steve … I want to be transgender, it’s the new black,” he recalled.

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/gender-e...ts-trendy/

But the doctor is right. It's trendy and most wont need the dreaded "pray the gay away".

If that's the case, then it's the doctor's responsibility to refuse. Of course, the kid will just look for another willing less reputable doctor but at least the first doctor refused to participate.

(04-12-2017 08:20 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 07:24 AM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 12:24 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Australian doctor claims that teens are trying to be transgender just because it's trendy, and that 75% won't need treatment.

Quote:Adolescents are “trying out being transgender” to stand out or gain attention from their peers, psychiatrist Stephen Stathis told the Courier Mail last week. “One said to me, ‘Dr. Steve … I want to be transgender, it’s the new black,” he recalled.

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/gender-e...ts-trendy/

But the doctor is right. It's trendy and most wont need the dreaded "pray the gay away".

If that's the case, then it's the doctor's responsibility to refuse. Of course, the kid will just look for another willing less reputable doctor but at least the first doctor refused to participate.

How do you refuse it? I mean if the definition of being transgender is all in your head how can you prove someone is lying about it.

Has anyone answered the title of the thread?

(04-12-2017 10:04 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Has anyone answered the title of the thread?

No, because there are two issues here

1 - At what point is someone's sexual dysmorphia ( a mental condition ) positively diagnosed.

2 - How should these people fit within society.