(03-27-2017 12:32 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:30 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:20 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:12 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:10 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  I'm trying to present my side with an actual thought process.

Are you just saying "K is better because I say he's better and everyone knows he's better"?

I'm just having a hard time with jiving the early exits and failing to meet seed with the idea that dude is the Brett Hart of coaching.

A lot of folks get caught up in the straw man argument of - with that kind of talent, he should never lose - which is just not considering the reality of college basketball.

And folks seem to forget the last three years Duke has been 1,1, and 2 in the recruiting rankings (and #3 this year). Say what you want about Cal, it's crazier to think K's team this year has better recruits and recruits he had held onto longer--and still sh!t the bed in the second round.

Ouch

The truth is uncomfortable for some.

Lmao

(03-27-2017 12:32 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:30 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:20 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:12 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:10 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  I'm trying to present my side with an actual thought process.

Are you just saying "K is better because I say he's better and everyone knows he's better"?

I'm just having a hard time with jiving the early exits and failing to meet seed with the idea that dude is the Brett Hart of coaching.

A lot of folks get caught up in the straw man argument of - with that kind of talent, he should never lose - which is just not considering the reality of college basketball.

And folks seem to forget the last three years Duke has been 1,1, and 2 in the recruiting rankings (and #3 this year). Say what you want about Cal, it's crazier to think K's team this year has better recruits and recruits he had held onto longer--and still sh!t the bed in the second round.

Ouch

The truth is uncomfortable for some.

There is some truth there when you look at a college coach in completeness...Recruiting, managing, evaluation, motivating and strategy. The argument can be made that Cal and K have been very close recently.

(03-27-2017 12:44 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:32 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:30 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:20 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:12 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  A lot of folks get caught up in the straw man argument of - with that kind of talent, he should never lose - which is just not considering the reality of college basketball.

And folks seem to forget the last three years Duke has been 1,1, and 2 in the recruiting rankings (and #3 this year). Say what you want about Cal, it's crazier to think K's team this year has better recruits and recruits he had held onto longer--and still sh!t the bed in the second round.

Ouch

The truth is uncomfortable for some.

There is some truth there when you look at a college coach in completeness...Recruiting, managing, evaluation, motivating and strategy. The argument can be made that Cal and K have been very close recently.

Agree.

If there's a "best coach" of all time argument then Jim Calhoins name need to be in it. What was UConn before he got there ?

(03-27-2017 01:01 PM)VinnieVegas Wrote:  If there's a "best coach" of all time argument then Jim Calhoins name need to be in it. What was UConn before he got there ?

No doubt. He's in the conversation.

(03-27-2017 12:33 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Some seem to place more worth on recruiting over development/tactical coaching. Some seem to devalue it and don't consider it part of "coaching". I have the same opinion I had when Cal was here, and I heard others say he couldn't "coach".

Recruiting is a big part of coaching. He does that as well as anyone ever has, so he is a long way towards being a good coach before they play a single game.

Now, recruiting is not the only thing. Development and game-planning are also big parts. (I haven't figured out the mathematics on it yet.) So if you're only good at one facet, you will get beaten by those better at all facets.

Good points. As much as it pains me to say this, Cal is good at developing players as well. Highly touted players who go to UK generally are sought after in the NBA and seem to be doing really well in the league (e.g. John Wall, Anthony Davis, Cousins).

I do think it is challenging to close the deal in the tournament with such young players. While he has done really well in March, he tends to have a favorable draw due to high seeding. It seems they have lost to teams that had talent and some experienced players to rely on. Even though he was just a sophomore, I think Terrence Jones played a huge part in them winning it in 2012 as he was able to provide leadership to a really young team.

I think a mix of the young bloods along with a few veterans is a nice recipe for success. Time for the Tigers to put together the same recipe and begin to thrive in March.

GTG!!!

Looking back, consider Calipari's 2010 team had Demarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall all on the same team. And didn't even make the Final Four.

(03-27-2017 01:57 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  Looking back, consider Calipari's 2010 team had Demarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall all on the same team. And didn't even make the Final Four.

Yep.

Hard to win with freshman.

We keep saying it, but folks act dumbfounded by it all the same.

(03-27-2017 01:58 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:57 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  Looking back, consider Calipari's 2010 team had Demarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall all on the same team. And didn't even make the Final Four.

Yep.

Hard to win with freshman.

We keep saying it, but folks act dumbfounded by it all the same.

Another point of view is that a more skilled coach might be able to win with such overwhelming talent. And such an overwhelming talent delta compared to competition. That team also had two other 4-star, 90+ rated ESPN starters on it too.

Freshmen are one thing...but uber uber talented ones are yet another.
I dunno how Cal keeps them in line. I gotta give him kudos for that.

I do think Izzo could make more outta less though.

(03-27-2017 01:43 PM)shayden31 Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 12:33 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Some seem to place more worth on recruiting over development/tactical coaching. Some seem to devalue it and don't consider it part of "coaching". I have the same opinion I had when Cal was here, and I heard others say he couldn't "coach".

Recruiting is a big part of coaching. He does that as well as anyone ever has, so he is a long way towards being a good coach before they play a single game.

Now, recruiting is not the only thing. Development and game-planning are also big parts. (I haven't figured out the mathematics on it yet.) So if you're only good at one facet, you will get beaten by those better at all facets.

Good points. As much as it pains me to say this, Cal is good at developing players as well. Highly touted players who go to UK generally are sought after in the NBA and seem to be doing really well in the league (e.g. John Wall, Anthony Davis, Cousins).

I do think it is challenging to close the deal in the tournament with such young players. While he has done really well in March, he tends to have a favorable draw due to high seeding. It seems they have lost to teams that had talent and some experienced players to rely on. Even though he was just a sophomore, I think Terrence Jones played a huge part in them winning it in 2012 as he was able to provide leadership to a really young team.

I think a mix of the young bloods along with a few veterans is a nice recipe for success. Time for the Tigers to put together the same recipe and begin to thrive in March.

GTG!!!

Honestly I don't think he "Develops" players...The players were great when they got there and are great when they leave.

I think he is a good motivator and communicator and he gets his guys to play hard. If you have great individual offensive players that you can convince to defend and rebound you will have a very good college team. The question is can you count on freshmen for 6 games straight.

(03-27-2017 02:01 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:58 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:57 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  Looking back, consider Calipari's 2010 team had Demarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall all on the same team. And didn't even make the Final Four.

Yep.

Hard to win with freshman.

We keep saying it, but folks act dumbfounded by it all the same.

Another point of view is that a more skilled coach might be able to win with such overwhelming talent. And such an overwhelming talent delta compared to competition. That team also had two other 4-star, 90+ rated ESPN starters on it too.

Yep.

We've also illustrated that Coach K and Bill Self also find it just as difficult to win it all with highly ranked young players.

(03-27-2017 02:13 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 02:01 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:58 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:57 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  Looking back, consider Calipari's 2010 team had Demarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall all on the same team. And didn't even make the Final Four.

Yep.

Hard to win with freshman.

We keep saying it, but folks act dumbfounded by it all the same.

Another point of view is that a more skilled coach might be able to win with such overwhelming talent. And such an overwhelming talent delta compared to competition. That team also had two other 4-star, 90+ rated ESPN starters on it too.

Yep.

We've also illustrated that Coach K and Bill Self also find it just as difficult to win it all with highly ranked young players.

So, what you are saying, is that Cal isn't very bright by going the route he has been on for the past 12 or so years?

(03-27-2017 02:25 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 02:13 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 02:01 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:58 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:57 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  Looking back, consider Calipari's 2010 team had Demarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall all on the same team. And didn't even make the Final Four.

Yep.

Hard to win with freshman.

We keep saying it, but folks act dumbfounded by it all the same.

Another point of view is that a more skilled coach might be able to win with such overwhelming talent. And such an overwhelming talent delta compared to competition. That team also had two other 4-star, 90+ rated ESPN starters on it too.

Yep.

We've also illustrated that Coach K and Bill Self also find it just as difficult to win it all with highly ranked young players.

So, what you are saying, is that Cal isn't very bright by going the route he has been on for the past 12 or so years?

Well, he's in the mix every year, so there's that.

And I did say earlier in the thread that I believe his biggest mistake at Kentucky is not having a better foundation of experienced players.

(03-27-2017 02:12 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  Freshmen are one thing...but uber uber talented ones are yet another.
I dunno how Cal keeps them in line. I gotta give him kudos for that.

I do think Izzo could make more outta less though.

Oh, I bet it wouldn't take you much to figure out how he does it. Lol.

(03-27-2017 02:38 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 02:12 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  Freshmen are one thing...but uber uber talented ones are yet another.
I dunno how Cal keeps them in line. I gotta give him kudos for that.

I do think Izzo could make more outta less though.

Oh, I bet it wouldn't take you much to figure out how he does it. Lol.

Playing time? He has so many potential stars. I guess that would be the biggest ax he could hold over their heads.

(03-27-2017 02:31 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 02:25 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 02:13 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 02:01 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:58 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Yep.

Hard to win with freshman.

We keep saying it, but folks act dumbfounded by it all the same.

Another point of view is that a more skilled coach might be able to win with such overwhelming talent. And such an overwhelming talent delta compared to competition. That team also had two other 4-star, 90+ rated ESPN starters on it too.

Yep.

We've also illustrated that Coach K and Bill Self also find it just as difficult to win it all with highly ranked young players.

So, what you are saying, is that Cal isn't very bright by going the route he has been on for the past 12 or so years?

Well, he's in the mix every year, so there's that.

And I did say earlier in the thread that I believe his biggest mistake at Kentucky is not having a better foundation of experienced players.

Gonna be the same issue again next year. At least he had Lee and Hawkins to provide some leadership and savvy.

Next year--no seniors, two juniors, four sophs, and six frosh.

(03-27-2017 02:01 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:58 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:57 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  Looking back, consider Calipari's 2010 team had Demarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall all on the same team. And didn't even make the Final Four.

Yep.

Hard to win with freshman.

We keep saying it, but folks act dumbfounded by it all the same.

Another point of view is that a more skilled coach might be able to win with such overwhelming talent. And such an overwhelming talent delta compared to competition. That team also had two other 4-star, 90+ rated ESPN starters on it too.

How much time do you honestly think a coach gets with the players once the season starts. There is only so much that can drilled into kids in a single season.

There are going to be situations were freshmen just screw up where seniors would not, but since they are so much better talent wise than others it balances out those mistakes.

(03-27-2017 02:50 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 02:01 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:58 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 01:57 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  Looking back, consider Calipari's 2010 team had Demarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall all on the same team. And didn't even make the Final Four.

Yep.

Hard to win with freshman.

We keep saying it, but folks act dumbfounded by it all the same.

Another point of view is that a more skilled coach might be able to win with such overwhelming talent. And such an overwhelming talent delta compared to competition. That team also had two other 4-star, 90+ rated ESPN starters on it too.

How much time do you honestly think a coach gets with the players once the season starts. There is only so much that can drilled into kids in a single season.

There are going to be situations were freshmen just screw up where seniors would not, but since they are so much better talent wise than others it balances out those mistakes.

That's where Camp Cal comes in.

From 1997-8 to the 2005-6 season (nine years) Duke was a #1 seed eight times. (the other they were a #3 seed).

In eight of those seasons, they were #1 at some point during the regular season (the other was as high as #2).

Their rankings going into the NCAAt: 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 7, 6, 3, and 1.

Five of those years, Duke lost in the S16. Duke came away with one title in that nine year span. One NC runner up, one Final Four, and one E8.

In Cal's eight years at Kentucky, they have been to seven NCAAt's.

Their rankings going into the NCAAt: 2, 11, 1, NR, 1, 10, and 5.

Cal has one title in that span to go along with a NC runner up, 2 Final Four, and 2 E8.