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North Dakota Fighting Sioux
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LeFlâneur Offline
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Post: #1
North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Lots of "Sioux" jerseys in the stands at last night's game. Glad to see that tradition continues.
03-25-2017 07:26 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #2
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Sioux tops will be at UND events for decades to come. I don't blame them, I don't look down upon it, and yet I also don't support it.
03-25-2017 01:34 PM
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justinslot Offline
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Post: #3
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
I've said this before, I just hate the hypocrisy of UND being forced to change while Florida State--which adds the most racist crowd activity in college sports and (usually) a white kid playing an Indian to the mascot name--is allowed to keep theirs, simply because a tiny local tribe wants to use "Seminole" in their casino branding in defiance of the larger Seminole population's feelings (most of whom are in Oklahoma I believe) on the mascot.
03-25-2017 02:32 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Central Michigan only needed one Ojibwe/Chippewa tribe to support it when there are many in Michigan. UND was the only school where more than one rez had to endorse the naming rights per the hypocritical NCAA. For UND, the more local reservation did, which is Spirit Lake, but the reservation mostly in SD, Standing Rock, refused a rez wide vote. 8 of the 9 districts on that rez had their own votes which supported the Sioux name to UND, but those didn't count. Neither did a 1968 peace pipe ceremony by Standing Rock with the UND Prez bequeathing the name for eternity, which is supposedly an unbreakable covenant. The NCAA and younger Standing Rock leaders refused to recognize that Peace Pipe ceremony as it didnt serve their desires.

Most of the NA vehement opposition to the name locally were Chippewa/Ojibwe people, and the enmity between those people groups goes way back.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2017 05:39 PM by NoDak.)
03-25-2017 04:05 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-25-2017 01:34 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Sioux tops will be at UND events for decades to come. I don't blame them, I don't look down upon it, and yet I also don't support it.

UND has to sell some old time jerseys periodically, or else their trademark runs out and anybody can sell Fighting Sioux jerseys. Jerseys were a big time royalty maker, as they are ten times more expensive than t-shirts. A UND FS Jersey is the de facto clothing at UND games.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2017 06:18 PM by NoDak.)
03-25-2017 05:43 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Glad to hear the Fighting Sioux are continuing their legacy.

The actions of the NCAA in this matter are simply disgusting.
03-25-2017 06:06 PM
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72Tiger Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Fighting Irish is okay, but Fighting Sioux isn't.
03-26-2017 09:23 AM
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TerryD Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-26-2017 09:23 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  Fighting Irish is okay, but Fighting Sioux isn't.

First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

The "Fighting Irish" designation likely has its origins with the "Fighting 69th" (all Irish) New York Volunteer Infantry and the Irish Brigade in the Civil War.

Father Corby, President of Notre Dame, was the chaplain of the Irish Brigade at Gettysburg.

Here is a painting of him blessing the Irish Brigade at Gettysburg.


[Image: FatherCorby.jpg]


Here is a statue of Father Corby at Gettysburg:


[Image: Corby_2025.jpg]


And his plaque at Gettysburg:

[Image: Corby-Plaque-PX_0721.png]


"It’s true that four of the six religious who founded Notre Dame in 1842 with French priest Edward Sorin were Irish; that nearly all of Fr. Sorin’s successors claim Irish descent; and that the student body has always had a strong Irish presence.

The Fighting Irish nickname was first coined for the Irish immigrant soldiers who fought for the Union during the Civil War in what became called the Irish Brigade, including three regiments from New York. Their valor was later memorialized in the poetry of Joyce Kilmer. That’s also the Irish way: Ireland’s poetry is often better than its fighting, turning defeat into eternal glory. The University has a valid claim to the nickname because the brigade’s beloved chaplain was Rev. William Corby, C.S.C., who later became the third president of Notre Dame."


https://www.nd.edu/features/whats-in-a-name/


http://michaelloynd.com/blog/?p=26



So, a direct link to the "Fighting Irish" nickname goes back to Father Corby and the Irish Brigade.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2017 10:31 AM by TerryD.)
03-26-2017 10:22 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-25-2017 06:06 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  The actions of the NCAA in this matter are simply disgusting.

They might not have been fairly applied, in UND's case, but they're hardly disgusting.

The NCAA is a voluntary, private organization, not the government. So this was just an action of your beloved "market".
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2017 10:01 PM by MplsBison.)
03-26-2017 10:01 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #10
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-26-2017 10:01 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-25-2017 06:06 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  The actions of the NCAA in this matter are simply disgusting.

They might not have been fairly applied, in UND's case, but they're hardly disgusting.

The NCAA is a voluntary, private organization, not the government. So this was just an action of your beloved "market".
As per the NCAA, I stand by my description. A bit mild, if anything.

As per the "market", it is not "beloved" by me and in any case I do not seek government redress of the situation.
03-27-2017 08:23 AM
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Shox Offline
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Post: #11
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
The Fighting Sioux got jobbed but the problem is that the University doubled down on the retardation and picked the most generic name possible, Hawks. They should have followed the lead of other state flagships and adopted the state nickname (The RoughRider State) Rough Riders. PC at its finest.
03-27-2017 09:42 AM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 09:42 AM)Shox Wrote:  The Fighting Sioux got jobbed but the problem is that the University doubled down on the retardation and picked the most generic name possible, Hawks. They should have followed the lead of other state flagships and adopted the state nickname (The RoughRider State) Rough Riders. PC at its finest.

Our past President had worked at Illinois for years, and was part of the cabal to get rid of Chief Iilliniwek. His partners in crime, who were also formerly in the Illinois system when he was, we're the Presidents of SDSU and Portland St, who promised to ban play against any UND team if they had the Sioux name. Almost all the Presidents in the pipeline are vehemently PC. I'm sure all three are bragging of their good deeds on eliminating to their best of their ability racial names their retirement.

Our past President wanted Sun Dogs, which are ice crystal rainbows, as our new nickname and hated Rough Riders because it was too rough. Thats the kind of PC people that are university administrators these days.
03-27-2017 09:58 AM
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Shox Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 09:58 AM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 09:42 AM)Shox Wrote:  The Fighting Sioux got jobbed but the problem is that the University doubled down on the retardation and picked the most generic name possible, Hawks. They should have followed the lead of other state flagships and adopted the state nickname (The RoughRider State) Rough Riders. PC at its finest.

Our past President had worked at Illinois for years, and was part of the cabal to get rid of Chief Iilliniwek. His partners in crime, who were also formerly in the Illinois system when he was, we're the Presidents of SDSU and Portland St, who promised to ban play against any UND team if they had the Sioux name. Almost all the Presidents in the pipeline are vehemently PC. I'm sure all three are bragging of their good deeds on eliminating to their best of their ability racial names their retirement.

Our past President wanted Sun Dogs, which are ice crystal rainbows, as our new nickname and hated Rough Riders because it was too rough. Thats the kind of PC people that are university administrators these days.

UND definetly doesn't own the market on obtuse PC faculty and Presidents. It is widespread and has taken hold at every major state university and is now working its way through the smaller schools. JC Tech colleges are about the only ones who have their head screwed on straight. Mainly because to gain expertise in their field of study they had to work real jobs at real companies who fire people if you suck at your job.
03-27-2017 12:37 PM
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
It's really interesting to see the difference in what happened with UND with the forced mascot change and what happened at Arkansas State because the two schools took a different path. ND chose to fight the NCAA's ruling while AState got out in front and chose to change the mascot.

Fans here embraced changing to the Red Wolves, to the point that the only people who complain about the mascot change aren't usually AState fans to begin with. Merchandise Sales and Brand recognition has gone up basically every season since. UND has yet to get fans to buy over, and it's going to take a long time to get it to happen.
03-27-2017 12:48 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Could have come up with something more reflective of North Dakota like say the North Dakota Big Horns or the North Dakota Prarie Dogs
03-27-2017 12:56 PM
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 12:48 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  It's really interesting to see the difference in what happened with UND with the forced mascot change and what happened at Arkansas State because the two schools took a different path. ND chose to fight the NCAA's ruling while AState got out in front and chose to change the mascot.

Fans here embraced changing to the Red Wolves, to the point that the only people who complain about the mascot change aren't usually AState fans to begin with. Merchandise Sales and Brand recognition has gone up basically every season since. UND has yet to get fans to buy over, and it's going to take a long time to get it to happen.

But Red Wolves is a cool name, Fighting Hawks... not so much. I wish UND had been able to find a better name but the process became such a mess, unfortunately I think it just needed to get done so you now have the Fighting Hawks.

I don't agree with the PC culture that made UND change the name. I grew up around the Sioux in South Dakota and had friends I played sports against, and went to college with who grew up on the reservation. Most thought the Sioux logo was pretty cool and embraced it. Plus, most were well aware that there are much bigger issues on the reservations then what the University of North Dakota calls themselves.
03-27-2017 01:07 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 12:48 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  It's really interesting to see the difference in what happened with UND with the forced mascot change and what happened at Arkansas State because the two schools took a different path. ND chose to fight the NCAA's ruling while AState got out in front and chose to change the mascot.

Fans here embraced changing to the Red Wolves, to the point that the only people who complain about the mascot change aren't usually AState fans to begin with. Merchandise Sales and Brand recognition has gone up basically every season since. UND has yet to get fans to buy over, and it's going to take a long time to get it to happen.

Well in Ark St case they couldn't save the name because their wasn't any recourse. Generic Indian name couldn't be saved under the rules, unless the logo was made non-Indian like William & Mary did with their Tribe logo. Only tribal names with NA logos survived like Utes, Chippewas, and Seminoles.

UND had to fight it in court because there was million$ in repairs that would have need to be done with our hockey arena, as it has thousands of Sioux logos in marble and brass. They are still there but the lettering "Home of Fighting Sioux Hockey" outside was the only thing that had to be removed. Football and basketball the Sioux jerseys are less mandatory among fans. Hockey fans have barely budged.

In UND's case, if they got approval from both reservations it would have been saved. The nickname and logo were very popular on both reservations as witnessed by the clothing and tshirts, but there was intense opposition to the name by almost all other Indian and liberal groups. If there had been an allowed vote at Standing Rock, it may have passed. For Spirit Lake, their council opposed it first, but relented when the vote came it strongly approving it and they gave approval forever. Many Sioux Indians were part of an effort to keep the name, but they were ostracized by PC forces.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2017 01:29 PM by NoDak.)
03-27-2017 01:12 PM
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-26-2017 10:22 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 09:23 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  Fighting Irish is okay, but Fighting Sioux isn't.

First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

The "Fighting Irish" designation likely has its origins with the "Fighting 69th" (all Irish) New York Volunteer Infantry and the Irish Brigade in the Civil War.

Father Corby, President of Notre Dame, was the chaplain of the Irish Brigade at Gettysburg.

Here is a painting of him blessing the Irish Brigade at Gettysburg.


[Image: FatherCorby.jpg]


Here is a statue of Father Corby at Gettysburg:


[Image: Corby_2025.jpg]


And his plaque at Gettysburg:

[Image: Corby-Plaque-PX_0721.png]


"It’s true that four of the six religious who founded Notre Dame in 1842 with French priest Edward Sorin were Irish; that nearly all of Fr. Sorin’s successors claim Irish descent; and that the student body has always had a strong Irish presence.

The Fighting Irish nickname was first coined for the Irish immigrant soldiers who fought for the Union during the Civil War in what became called the Irish Brigade, including three regiments from New York. Their valor was later memorialized in the poetry of Joyce Kilmer. That’s also the Irish way: Ireland’s poetry is often better than its fighting, turning defeat into eternal glory. The University has a valid claim to the nickname because the brigade’s beloved chaplain was Rev. William Corby, C.S.C., who later became the third president of Notre Dame."


https://www.nd.edu/features/whats-in-a-name/


http://michaelloynd.com/blog/?p=26

So, a direct link to the "Fighting Irish" nickname goes back to Father Corby and the Irish Brigade.

Plenty of Irish were fighting for the Confederacy as well.
03-27-2017 01:34 PM
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-25-2017 05:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-25-2017 01:34 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Sioux tops will be at UND events for decades to come. I don't blame them, I don't look down upon it, and yet I also don't support it.

UND has to sell some old time jerseys periodically, or else their trademark runs out and anybody can sell Fighting Sioux jerseys. Jerseys were a big time royalty maker, as they are ten times more expensive than t-shirts. A UND FS Jersey is the de facto clothing at UND games.

Illinois has the same "problem" with ownership of the trademark. My friend tells me that they solve it by only selling cheap things with the Chief Illiniwek logo (like stickers). Although I did find a T-shirt for $23 online:

https://www.fansedge.com/original-retro-.../p-2182444
03-27-2017 02:57 PM
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RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-26-2017 10:22 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 09:23 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  Fighting Irish is okay, but Fighting Sioux isn't.

First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

Terry, I don't think anyone questions the legitimacy of the Fighting Irish. I think people who say "Fighting Irish is ok, but Fighting Sioux isn't" are those who support both names.

Personally I think that it is sad that Native Americans have practically disappeared from our cultural landscape. There are just as many Native Americans as there are Jewish Americans or Chinese Americans, and a lot more than Muslim Americans. But when did we last celebrate a Jim Thorpe or a Chief Bender? Where is the modern Indian equivalent of Jeremy Lin or Ryan Braun? They're just sort of ignored, and this drive to eliminate their mascots goes even further to making them invisible.
03-27-2017 03:15 PM
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