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Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
Nobody cares about Spanier. This was never about Spanier. The people didn't riot in the streets over Spanier's firing. People aren't still demanding that Spanier's reputation be restored. This did not become the biggest sports-related story of the century because of Spanier's involvement in the scandal.

Everyone knows what this is about. It's about Paterno - he was the guy calling the shots there and everyone knows that.

For literally four full decades, all we heard during every Penn State game was the Paterno knew everything that went on on that campus. If a guy got into a fight at an off-campus apartment on Friday, Joe knew about it on Saturday. If a guy skipped a class on Wednesday in April, Joe knew about it that afternoon. They bragged about that for 40 years and I have no doubt it was true.

However, it then becomes impossible to fathom that he would know that level of minutiae about every other aspect of the program but would not know anything about one of his top assistants raping literally dozens of children, including some inside the football facility.

Remember, Sandusky got there in the late '60's. Does anyone honestly believe that his pedophilia began in 1998? For 29 years he lived on the straight and narrow but then one day he decided he could no longer resist the a lore of 10-year-old boys.

And yet somehow, in that tiny, insular community, nobody knew about it, least of all the man who operated like a king and reportedly had people reporting back to him on all sorts of affairs, both minor and otherwise.

That's just completely impossible to accept because it defies common sense.

I don't think the board of trustees told Freeh to do anything. I think they honestly thought they were mostly clean and gave him carte blanche to investigate. I think that everyone involved was shocked by his findings.

Do you honestly think Penn State wanted to mar the man who was literally the symbol of their entire institution? We are talking about the greatest fundraiser in the history of college athletics. I can't even think of a comparable example – that is how powerful Paterno was there.

This is Bear Bryant and Nick Saban at Alabama rolled into one and then times ten. Paterno was not merely a football coach, he was an institution unto himself. And he did not represent merely football success, he represented integrity and all that is right and special about Penn State. That's why those lunatics took it so personally. Louis Freeh wasn't attacking their football coach, he was attacking them on a deeply personal level because they bought into that myth so hard.

Why do you think Paterno and the others felt the need to turn their back's on innocent children? In other words, why were they conflicted about this at all?

When McQueary goes to Paterno to report what he saw in the locker room, by his own testimony, Paterno said, "You did what you felt you needed to do. Now I will do what I feel I need to do."

Let that sink in for a moment. One of his assistant coaches saw another one of his coaches raping a child in the team's locker room. What on earth was there to think about? He later said that he did not get the process started earlier because he did not want to ruin anyone's weekend. That's not coming from me, it's coming straight from the mouth of the now dead pedophile protector.

The question then becomes why would those men do that? Why would they intentionally leave children in harm's way? Are they that evil? Do they really condone child rape? The answer is of course not. However, they had built this goofy fantasyland world and the entire financial infrastructure of the program depended on maintaining it. On that point, and it is really the central issue in all of this, Freeh was absolutely right and there's just no doubt about it.

As for Paterno and the PSU BOT, it doesn't make any sense to say, "Well, they wanted to blackball him." Why would they do that? Why on earth would anyone do that? Now, why would a BUNCH of people conspire to do that? Why would people conspire to make the university itself an international laughing stock and cut off all of those donations?

That's the part no one can ever quite explain... because it is the most insane theory of all-time. It's like theorizing that Bob Kraft was the real man behind "Deflategate" because he really wanted to stick it to Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. It makes no sense.

It's easy to cry conspiracy when you don't like the results of something. However, it's hard to prove one, as the state just learned. They had these guys dead to rights and they still couldn't prove it. If anyone can explain to me why Penn State would use Paterno is the symbol of their ENTIRE institution - not just their athletic department or their football program, the entire university - for FOUR FULL DECADES and then suddenly decide to make him the biggest pariah in the history of American sports, I am all ears.

However, I will not hold my breath because it is complete nonsense.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2017 12:42 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
03-27-2017 12:13 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
Spanier's a slimeball, but, given the guy evaded some of his charges, he's going to probably have an edge now on his defamation suits.

It's kind of sad, really. The whole situation. Freeh's report was never supposed to be this definitive work. And it wasn't very good. CYA for the school, really. But, the NCAA took it as theirs. That meant the Fed/DoE took it like it was theirs, too. Everybody made it more than what it probably ever should have been, and yet, it's Freeh who's totally taking the heat for it. There should have been numerous reports on the matter conducted by the school, state, NCAA, and federal authorities...Freeh's about all you get. Well, Freeh, and these reports from PSU's insurers, apparently.

Freeh's shortcomings are what they are. It's the totality of failure from all of the other levels that gives a guy like Spanier leverage to get something out of this. And he will. And that's not Freeh's fault, that his report was just not good.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2017 02:57 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
03-27-2017 02:07 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-27-2017 12:13 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Nobody cares about Spanier. This was never about Spanier. The people didn't riot in the streets over Spanier's firing. People aren't still demanding that Spanier's reputation be restored. This did not become the biggest sports-related story of the century because of Spanier's involvement in the scandal.

Everyone knows what this is about. It's about Paterno - he was the guy calling the shots there and everyone knows that.

For literally four full decades, all we heard during every Penn State game was the Paterno knew everything that went on on that campus. If a guy got into a fight at an off-campus apartment on Friday, Joe knew about it on Saturday. If a guy skipped a class on Wednesday in April, Joe knew about it that afternoon. They bragged about that for 40 years and I have no doubt it was true.

However, it then becomes impossible to fathom that he would know that level of minutiae about every other aspect of the program but would not know anything about one of his top assistants raping literally dozens of children, including some inside the football facility.

Well if you had a culture where even the janitors were afraid to say anything, then yes you could. Look at Enron. Kenneth Lay was actually surprised by some of what went on.

Remember, Sandusky got there in the late '60's. Does anyone honestly believe that his pedophilia began in 1998? For 29 years he lived on the straight and narrow but then one day he decided he could no longer resist the a lore of 10-year-old boys.

And yet somehow, in that tiny, insular community, nobody knew about it, least of all the man who operated like a king and reportedly had people reporting back to him on all sorts of affairs, both minor and otherwise.

That's just completely impossible to accept because it defies common sense.

Well when no one will talk about it...

I don't think the board of trustees told Freeh to do anything. I think they honestly thought they were mostly clean and gave him carte blanche to investigate. I think that everyone involved was shocked by his findings.

Do you honestly think Penn State wanted to mar the man who was literally the symbol of their entire institution? We are talking about the greatest fundraiser in the history of college athletics. I can't even think of a comparable example – that is how powerful Paterno was there.

Did you not pay any attention to the back and forth when they fired him? They didn't even do it in person. That's just Pitt fan talking. He was set up as scapegoat from the start. How much he deserved that is hard to say. Buts its clear the board didn't want their negligence looked at. They did not properly oversee Spanier and did let a sick culture build.

This is Bear Bryant and Nick Saban at Alabama rolled into one and then times ten. Paterno was not merely a football coach, he was an institution unto himself. And he did not represent merely football success, he represented integrity and all that is right and special about Penn State. That's why those lunatics took it so personally. Louis Freeh wasn't attacking their football coach, he was attacking them on a deeply personal level because they bought into that myth so hard.

Why do you think Paterno and the others felt the need to turn their back's on innocent children? In other words, why were they conflicted about this at all?

When McQueary goes to Paterno to report what he saw in the locker room, by his own testimony, Paterno said, "You did what you felt you needed to do. Now I will do what I feel I need to do."

Let that sink in for a moment. One of his assistant coaches saw another one of his coaches raping a child in the team's locker room. What on earth was there to think about? He later said that he did not get the process started earlier because he did not want to ruin anyone's weekend. That's not coming from me, it's coming straight from the mouth of the now dead pedophile protector.

Uh, its McQueary who didn't do anything at first. He's the #3 scumbag on my list after Schultz (in charge of police) and Curley (who clearly knew Sandusky was bad news). Even ahead of Spanier who was over the whole thing. I can't believe somebody gave him money.

The question then becomes why would those men do that? Why would they intentionally leave children in harm's way? Are they that evil? Do they really condone child rape? The answer is of course not. However, they had built this goofy fantasyland world and the entire financial infrastructure of the program depended on maintaining it. On that point, and it is really the central issue in all of this, Freeh was absolutely right and there's just no doubt about it.

I think there are lots of different explanations, but we've had this discussion on the board before and won't agree. Suffice it to say, most people aren't as virtuous as they think they are. Lots of times they turn the other way, especially when you have somebody connected to a "Saint" as you did at PSU.

As for Paterno and the PSU BOT, it doesn't make any sense to say, "Well, they wanted to blackball him." Why would they do that? Why on earth would anyone do that? Now, why would a BUNCH of people conspire to do that? Why would people conspire to make the university itself an international laughing stock and cut off all of those donations?

That's the part no one can ever quite explain... because it is the most insane theory of all-time. It's like theorizing that Bob Kraft was the real man behind "Deflategate" because he really wanted to stick it to Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. They were protecting themselves and trying to compartmentalize the damage. See, we fired Art (excuse me, Joe) and now everything is perfect.

It's easy to cry conspiracy when you don't like the results of something. However, it's hard to prove one, as the state just learned. They had these guys dead to rights and they still couldn't prove it. If anyone can explain to me why Penn State would use Paterno is the symbol of their ENTIRE institution - not just their athletic department or their football program, the entire university - for FOUR FULL DECADES and then suddenly decide to make him the biggest pariah in the history of American sports, I am all ears.

However, I will not hold my breath because it is complete nonsense.

CYA as I said.
03-27-2017 05:26 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-27-2017 06:14 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  "But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,  having no natural affection [such as an adult should have for a child], not open to any agreement [because they don't want to hear the truth], slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,  betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures [such as watching football] rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." - 2 Timothy 3:1-5




Someone could have applied (and perhaps did) that verse to 317 AD, or 1317 or 1717 or now.......
03-27-2017 09:12 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-27-2017 09:12 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:14 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  "But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,  having no natural affection [such as an adult should have for a child], not open to any agreement [because they don't want to hear the truth], slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,  betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures [such as watching football] rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." - 2 Timothy 3:1-5




Someone could have applied (and perhaps did) that verse to 317 AD, or 1317 or 1717 or now.......

No doubt some did. Does that make it any less pertinent to today? or any less to this case, even?


(if you want to discuss Bible prophecy, that's by no means the only one about the "time of the end" - just one piece of a much larger puzzle).
03-27-2017 09:31 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-27-2017 09:31 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 09:12 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:14 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  "But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,  having no natural affection [such as an adult should have for a child], not open to any agreement [because they don't want to hear the truth], slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,  betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures [such as watching football] rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." - 2 Timothy 3:1-5




Someone could have applied (and perhaps did) that verse to 317 AD, or 1317 or 1717 or now.......

No doubt some did. Does that make it any less pertinent to today? or any less to this case, even?


(if you want to discuss Bible prophecy, that's by no means the only one about the "time of the end" - just one piece of a much larger puzzle).

No, I really don't. I just think people always think that the time that they live in is the worst of times, when it usually is not.
03-28-2017 06:47 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-28-2017 06:47 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 09:31 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 09:12 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:14 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  "But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,  having no natural affection [such as an adult should have for a child], not open to any agreement [because they don't want to hear the truth], slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,  betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures [such as watching football] rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." - 2 Timothy 3:1-5




Someone could have applied (and perhaps did) that verse to 317 AD, or 1317 or 1717 or now.......

No doubt some did. Does that make it any less pertinent to today? or any less to this case, even?


(if you want to discuss Bible prophecy, that's by no means the only one about the "time of the end" - just one piece of a much larger puzzle).

No, I really don't. I just think people always think that the time that they live in is the worst of times, when it usually is not.

True. Now is the worst of times. All those other suckers were wrong.

Seriously though, I agree. But whether or not we are all collectively about to taste our mortality, the basic message of don't be an unmitigated jerk is a good one.
03-28-2017 07:05 AM
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TripleA Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
Glad he was convicted. The others should have been, as well.
03-28-2017 09:13 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-26-2017 10:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I have a trouble seeing the connection between research funding and football, even on an abstract level.

Not what I said.

I said the reputation of the entire institution would be harmed, if the athletics dept got the death penalty. Even, and especially, those parts of the school that have nothing to do with athletics.

Completely unacceptable.

(03-26-2017 10:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I also have trouble caring about PSU research

Your ignorance is your own problem.


(03-27-2017 11:38 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This should at the very least shelve forever any talk resurrecting the Paterno statue.

(03-27-2017 12:13 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  For literally four full decades, all we heard during every Penn State game was the Paterno knew everything that went on on that campus. If a guy got into a fight at an off-campus apartment on Friday, Joe knew about it on Saturday. If a guy skipped a class on Wednesday in April, Joe knew about it that afternoon. They bragged about that for 40 years and I have no doubt it was true.

However, it then becomes impossible to fathom that he would know that level of minutiae about every other aspect of the program but would not know anything about one of his top assistants raping literally dozens of children, including some inside the football facility.

I can speak for myself: my defense of PSU (against NCAA penalties) has nothing to do with Paterno.

I care nothing for Paterno. Melt his statue down, for all I care. His legacy means nothing to me.

Perhaps he did commit the crime of covering up child sexual abuse by his former assistant coach. Maybe he killed himself to avoid being charged. Who knows. If he was still alive today, and evidence could be compiled proving his guilt behind reasonable doubt, I would be right with everyone else cheering for him to be locked up.


But Paterno was just an individual, and at worst he committed individual crimes. The walls of Penn St didn't rape anyone.
03-29-2017 07:43 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-29-2017 07:43 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 10:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I have a trouble seeing the connection between research funding and football, even on an abstract level.

Not what I said.

I said the reputation of the entire institution would be harmed, if the athletics dept got the death penalty. Even, and especially, those parts of the school that have nothing to do with athletics.

Completely unacceptable.

(03-26-2017 10:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I also have trouble caring about PSU research

Your ignorance is your own problem.

"I will never allow people who had absolutely nothing to do with the tragedy be completely, unfairly harmed. And that includes PSU researchers too! The reputation of the institution is damaged. Proof: SMU."

That's what you said.

I replied by questioning:
A) why I (or the average Penn Stater) should care about research. You didn't reply w/ anything of substance.
B) whether your statement is true.
-1) SMU is a good and well-respected school - as it was before the death penalty.
-2) how would the ban impact research in any capacity. Research grants aren't given out on the basis of how much the guy giving the grant likes the school's football team.

And, this is nit-picking, but nobody was calling for a death penalty for the entire athletics department.
03-29-2017 08:32 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-29-2017 08:32 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  why I (or the average Penn Stater) should care about research

Research is the core value-add of higher education. It's what makes spending enormous amounts of public money on post-secondary institutions justified.

If you only think universities are good for sports and an undergrad degree ... then root for some SEC diploma mill.

Again, your ignorance is your own problem.

(03-29-2017 08:32 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  SMU is a good and well-respected school - as it was before the death penalty.

SMU is actually a poor example. So that's my fault ... but it's the only example of the death penalty being applied.

Poor because it does little research. I doubt it did much before the penalty.

It might have a certain reputation as a place that rich kids in Dallas go, perhaps. But it certainly isn't some elite academic reputation, nor elite research.

(03-29-2017 08:32 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  how would the ban impact research in any capacity. Research grants aren't given out on the basis of how much the guy giving the grant likes the school's football team.

Prolific researchers may choose to flee the university, taking their labs, grad students, and intellectual property with them to other schools.

And you have absolutely no idea what goes on in a study session. They look for any possible edge to rule out a proposal. It has nothing to do with football ... it's simply the reputation of the school in general.

PSU gets a death penalty, then the whole next month the headlines are all simply "Penn State University receives death penalty". That's how that works.

(03-29-2017 08:32 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  And, this is nit-picking, but nobody was calling for a death penalty for the entire athletics department.

If you're talking about here on this board, then patently false.

Several wished for that, and much worse.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2017 08:42 PM by MplsBison.)
03-29-2017 08:40 PM
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Post: #52
Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
Mplsbison what the hell do you mean ?
Paterno is an individual and at worst committed individual crimes !!! Really?, yeah those individual crimes meant 40 years of young boys being raped under his watch and you say " at worst"
Paterno is a dead individual
03-29-2017 09:40 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-29-2017 08:40 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-29-2017 08:32 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  why I (or the average Penn Stater) should care about research

Research is the core value-add of higher education. It's what makes spending enormous amounts of public money on post-secondary institutions justified.

If you only think universities are good for sports and an undergrad degree ... then root for some SEC diploma mill.

Again, your ignorance is your own problem.

(03-29-2017 08:32 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  SMU is a good and well-respected school - as it was before the death penalty.

SMU is actually a poor example. So that's my fault ... but it's the only example of the death penalty being applied.

Poor because it does little research. I doubt it did much before the penalty.

It might have a certain reputation as a place that rich kids in Dallas go, perhaps. But it certainly isn't some elite academic reputation, nor elite research.

(03-29-2017 08:32 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  how would the ban impact research in any capacity. Research grants aren't given out on the basis of how much the guy giving the grant likes the school's football team.

Prolific researchers may choose to flee the university, taking their labs, grad students, and intellectual property with them to other schools.

And you have absolutely no idea what goes on in a study session. They look for any possible edge to rule out a proposal. It has nothing to do with football ... it's simply the reputation of the school in general.

PSU gets a death penalty, then the whole next month the headlines are all simply "Penn State University receives death penalty". That's how that works.

(03-29-2017 08:32 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  And, this is nit-picking, but nobody was calling for a death penalty for the entire athletics department.

If you're talking about here on this board, then patently false.

Several wished for that, and much worse.

No - Research has nothing to do w/ virtually all undergrad students, and a significant chunk of grad students. Public schools do it heavily because their mission consists of improving the quality of life for the citizens of their states.

Also, I might point out that PSU is an undergrad-dominated university (~90% of PSU students are undergrads) w/ an athletic program that's out of control (see this thread)

Also hilariously no - Research professors aren't going to flee the school because a football team starts losing. Look at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Cornell, Stanford (most years), Northwestern, Vanderbilt, NYU, Columbia, Rice, Tulane, JHU, Cal, Duke, Cal Tech, Chicago, Brown, etc.

Also, in addition to being stupid (awarding competitive grants based on having a football team is ludicrous), what you described is illegal - at least as it pertains to federal research grants.

You could make the argument that the professors might leave due to budget cuts resulting from decreased funding from the athletic program, but A) it's a drop in the +$4 billion bucket at PSU and B) they have to go somewhere. Given the vast majority of the value add of research is for the state in general (especially at PSU), who cares if they go to Temple/Pitt/etc.?

You're sorely mistaken if you don't think that SMU is a good school. I guess we can argue semantics by what you meant by "elite" if you really want to. However, my initial comment said "good" and it was made in the context PSU. So yes, where SMU probably doesn't get confused w/ MIT/Stanford/Harvard a lot, its probably better than PSU, and it's certainly at least on the same footing. But I do agree, it is a bad example, as is pretty much any other example you could realistically cook up because you're point is extremely weak.

I didn't call for an end to PSU athletics, and I have yet to see a poster who did. But it's a side point.
03-29-2017 10:35 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  No - Research has nothing to do w/ virtually all undergrad students, and a significant chunk of grad students. Public schools do it heavily because their mission consists of improving the quality of life for the citizens of their states.

Also, I might point out that PSU is an undergrad-dominated university (~90% of PSU students are undergrads) w/ an athletic program that's out of control (see this thread)

Also hilariously no - Research professors aren't going to flee the school because a football team starts losing. Look at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Cornell, Stanford (most years), Northwestern, Vanderbilt, NYU, Columbia, Rice, Tulane, JHU, Cal, Duke, Cal Tech, Chicago, Brown, etc.

Also, in addition to being stupid (awarding competitive grants based on having a football team is ludicrous), what you described is illegal - at least as it pertains to federal research grants.

You could make the argument that the professors might leave due to budget cuts resulting from decreased funding from the athletic program, but A) it's a drop in the +$4 billion bucket at PSU and B) they have to go somewhere. Given the vast majority of the value add of research is for the state in general (especially at PSU), who cares if they go to Temple/Pitt/etc.?

You're sorely mistaken if you don't think that SMU is a good school. I guess we can argue semantics by what you meant by "elite" if you really want to. However, my initial comment said "good" and it was made in the context PSU. So yes, where SMU probably doesn't get confused w/ MIT/Stanford/Harvard a lot, its probably better than PSU, and it's certainly at least on the same footing. But I do agree, it is a bad example, as is pretty much any other example you could realistically cook up because you're point is extremely weak.

I didn't call for an end to PSU athletics, and I have yet to see a poster who did. But it's a side point.

If PSU's athletic program is "out of control" --- as you conjecture --- what do you make of the reports George Mitchell gave in the 2012-2014 time period when he was actually on-campus in State College?

Mitchell, as I'm sure you remember, was on-campus at Penn State for a few years post-July 2012, as a part of the NCAA consent decree agreement. And Mitchell gave generally positive reports about PSU' athletic programs and culture during the time he was in State College.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2017 11:11 PM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
03-29-2017 11:10 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-29-2017 11:10 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  No - Research has nothing to do w/ virtually all undergrad students, and a significant chunk of grad students. Public schools do it heavily because their mission consists of improving the quality of life for the citizens of their states.

Also, I might point out that PSU is an undergrad-dominated university (~90% of PSU students are undergrads) w/ an athletic program that's out of control (see this thread)

Also hilariously no - Research professors aren't going to flee the school because a football team starts losing. Look at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Cornell, Stanford (most years), Northwestern, Vanderbilt, NYU, Columbia, Rice, Tulane, JHU, Cal, Duke, Cal Tech, Chicago, Brown, etc.

Also, in addition to being stupid (awarding competitive grants based on having a football team is ludicrous), what you described is illegal - at least as it pertains to federal research grants.

You could make the argument that the professors might leave due to budget cuts resulting from decreased funding from the athletic program, but A) it's a drop in the +$4 billion bucket at PSU and B) they have to go somewhere. Given the vast majority of the value add of research is for the state in general (especially at PSU), who cares if they go to Temple/Pitt/etc.?

You're sorely mistaken if you don't think that SMU is a good school. I guess we can argue semantics by what you meant by "elite" if you really want to. However, my initial comment said "good" and it was made in the context PSU. So yes, where SMU probably doesn't get confused w/ MIT/Stanford/Harvard a lot, its probably better than PSU, and it's certainly at least on the same footing. But I do agree, it is a bad example, as is pretty much any other example you could realistically cook up because you're point is extremely weak.

I didn't call for an end to PSU athletics, and I have yet to see a poster who did. But it's a side point.

If PSU's athletic program is "out of control" --- as you conjecture --- what do you make of the reports George Mitchell gave in the 2012-2014 time period when he was actually on-campus in State College?

Mitchell, as I'm sure you remember, was on-campus at Penn State for a few years post-July 2012, as a part of the NCAA consent decree agreement. And Mitchell gave generally positive reports about PSU' athletic programs and culture during the time he was in State College.

What do I make of his report? I think he was generally wrong, and I'd hate to be Shippensburg.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2017 11:20 PM by nzmorange.)
03-29-2017 11:18 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-29-2017 11:18 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  What do I make of his report? I think he was generally wrong, and I'd hate to be Shippensburg.

He was there, and you are/were not.

But you think he was wrong and you are right. OK, fair enough.

I do tend to doubt there is anyone who could change your opinion on this one.
03-29-2017 11:28 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-29-2017 11:28 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-29-2017 11:18 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  What do I make of his report? I think he was generally wrong, and I'd hate to be Shippensburg.

He was there, and you are/were not.

But you think he was wrong and you are right. OK, fair enough.

I do tend to doubt there is anyone who could change your opinion on this one.

I doubt that anyone could change your opinion.
03-29-2017 11:45 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-29-2017 09:40 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  yeah those individual crimes meant 40 years of young boys being raped under his watch and you say " at worst"

Yes, that is the worst. What do you propose as worse than that?

Like I said, if evidence was compiled that showed beyond reasonable doubt that he committed the crime of covering up those sexual abuses, then he should be locked up. If he were still alive.

Nothing more to be said about it, really.


(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  Research has nothing to do w/ virtually all undergrad students, and a significant chunk of grad students.

Maybe not at Syracuse. But at actual research universities, you're self-evidently wrong. I really just have no desire to address your willful ignorance.

(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  Public schools do it heavily because their mission consists of improving the quality of life for the citizens of their states.

... which they best achieve by developing breakthroughs in knowledge and technology.

(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  Research professors aren't going to flee the school because a football team starts losing.

You keep trying to misframe what was said, because you have no counter-argument for what was actually said.

Again, what was actually said: the reputation of the (entire) university would be at stake. It has nothing to do with football.

(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  what you described is illegal - at least as it pertains to federal research grants.

This small bit I'll educate you on: all federal grants consider both the track record and reputation of the researcher(s) submitting the proposal, as well as the environment of the campus.

Not illegal by any means.

(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  who cares if they go to Temple/Pitt/etc.?

You'll be able to force every PSU fleeing researcher to stay in the state? Absurd.

(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  its probably better than PSU, and it's certainly at least on the same footing.

Not in the slightest. Not in research, anyway. And I doubt in overall academic reputation, either. But the latter point I care much, much less about.

(03-29-2017 10:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I didn't call for an end to PSU athletics, and I have yet to see a poster who did. But it's a side point.

Then rest assured that several posters on here have, and leave it at that.
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2017 08:24 AM by MplsBison.)
03-30-2017 08:23 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-27-2017 05:26 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 12:13 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Nobody cares about Spanier. This was never about Spanier. The people didn't riot in the streets over Spanier's firing. People aren't still demanding that Spanier's reputation be restored. This did not become the biggest sports-related story of the century because of Spanier's involvement in the scandal.

Everyone knows what this is about. It's about Paterno - he was the guy calling the shots there and everyone knows that.

For literally four full decades, all we heard during every Penn State game was the Paterno knew everything that went on on that campus. If a guy got into a fight at an off-campus apartment on Friday, Joe knew about it on Saturday. If a guy skipped a class on Wednesday in April, Joe knew about it that afternoon. They bragged about that for 40 years and I have no doubt it was true.

However, it then becomes impossible to fathom that he would know that level of minutiae about every other aspect of the program but would not know anything about one of his top assistants raping literally dozens of children, including some inside the football facility.

Well if you had a culture where even the janitors were afraid to say anything, then yes you could. Look at Enron. Kenneth Lay was actually surprised by some of what went on.

[b]WHAT?! Is this a trick question?

Let me ask you a question, who instituted that culture? Who was most responsible for enforcing it? I'll give you three guesses but the first two don't count.


[/b]Remember, Sandusky got there in the late '60's. Does anyone honestly believe that his pedophilia began in 1998? For 29 years he lived on the straight and narrow but then one day he decided he could no longer resist the a lore of 10-year-old boys.

And yet somehow, in that tiny, insular community, nobody knew about it, least of all the man who operated like a king and reportedly had people reporting back to him on all sorts of affairs, both minor and otherwise.

That's just completely impossible to accept because it defies common sense.

Well when no one will talk about it...

Are you high or just putting me on?

They bragged for FORTY YEARS that Joe knew everything that happened up there because he had influence everywhere within that school. But people were going to keep from him the ONE THING that could bring the whole kingdom crashing to the earth? If you choose to believe that, that's fine. However, if you do believe that I would like to speak with you about some beach front property in State College that would suit you amazingly well. IM me immediately so as to not miss out on this AMAZING opportunity.


I don't think the board of trustees told Freeh to do anything. I think they honestly thought they were mostly clean and gave him carte blanche to investigate. I think that everyone involved was shocked by his findings.

Do you honestly think Penn State wanted to mar the man who was literally the symbol of their entire institution? We are talking about the greatest fundraiser in the history of college athletics. I can't even think of a comparable example – that is how powerful Paterno was there.

Did you not pay any attention to the back and forth when they fired him? They didn't even do it in person. That's just Pitt fan talking. He was set up as scapegoat from the start. How much he deserved that is hard to say. Buts its clear the board didn't want their negligence looked at. They did not properly oversee Spanier and did let a sick culture build.


Again, please explain to me in detail precisely how that works in real world, non-conspiratorial, planet Earth terms?

Meaning, how does one go from the very face of the entire institution to the logial choice as scapegoat overnight? Why not scapegoat Curley or Shultz or even Spanier? Why do it to the most important symbol of your entire institution? Do you think they didn't realize things would get ugly? Do you think they just hate positive publicity and/or donations?

Joe Paterno WAS Penn State to a great many people. That's why these goofballs are fightinmg so hard to preserve HIS legacy. They foolishly think that if Joe is exonerated, so too are THEY. I am here to tell you those people are DEAD WRONG!

His book has been written whether they accept it or not.


This is Bear Bryant and Nick Saban at Alabama rolled into one and then times ten. Paterno was not merely a football coach, he was an institution unto himself. And he did not represent merely football success, he represented integrity and all that is right and special about Penn State. That's why those lunatics took it so personally. Louis Freeh wasn't attacking their football coach, he was attacking them on a deeply personal level because they bought into that myth so hard.

Why do you think Paterno and the others felt the need to turn their back's on innocent children? In other words, why were they conflicted about this at all?

When McQueary goes to Paterno to report what he saw in the locker room, by his own testimony, Paterno said, "You did what you felt you needed to do. Now I will do what I feel I need to do."

Let that sink in for a moment. One of his assistant coaches saw another one of his coaches raping a child in the team's locker room. What on earth was there to think about? He later said that he did not get the process started earlier because he did not want to ruin anyone's weekend. That's not coming from me, it's coming straight from the mouth of the now dead pedophile protector.

Uh, its McQueary who didn't do anything at first. He's the #3 scumbag on my list after Schultz (in charge of police) and Curley (who clearly knew Sandusky was bad news). Even ahead of Spanier who was over the whole thing. I can't believe somebody gave him money.

Right, so everyone is to blame except the most powerful person involved. Got it.

The question then becomes why would those men do that? Why would they intentionally leave children in harm's way? Are they that evil? Do they really condone child rape? The answer is of course not. However, they had built this goofy fantasyland world and the entire financial infrastructure of the program depended on maintaining it. On that point, and it is really the central issue in all of this, Freeh was absolutely right and there's just no doubt about it.

I think there are lots of different explanations, but we've had this discussion on the board before and won't agree. Suffice it to say, most people aren't as virtuous as they think they are. Lots of times they turn the other way, especially when you have somebody connected to a "Saint" as you did at PSU.



Okie dokie.

As for Paterno and the PSU BOT, it doesn't make any sense to say, "Well, they wanted to blackball him." Why would they do that? Why on earth would anyone do that? Now, why would a BUNCH of people conspire to do that? Why would people conspire to make the university itself an international laughing stock and cut off all of those donations?

That's the part no one can ever quite explain... because it is the most insane theory of all-time. It's like theorizing that Bob Kraft was the real man behind "Deflategate" because he really wanted to stick it to Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. They were protecting themselves and trying to compartmentalize the damage. See, we fired Art (excuse me, Joe) and now everything is perfect.


What were they protecting exactly?

He WAS Penn State! He WAS the institution! Don't you get that by now?

People weren't rioting for "Dear Old State," they were rioting for "Joe!"

Even the people fighting tooth and nail on this issue - they aren't fighting to preserve Penn State's reputation, they are fighting to preserve HIS reputation!

The only way to do that is to completely re-write history and hope people are dumb enough or tired enough to fall for it. The good news for them is it appears to be working in some small corners. Maybe they'll come out with another letter from the great beyond to further explain all this away? It worked once, so why not try it again, right?

I think you are GROSSLY underselling Paterno's power here. He was absolutely the most powerful human being in the state of Pennsylvania and it was not even close. His power in Central Pennsylvania - especially State College - was very much like that of a divine right monarch.

Again though, don't take my word for it, just consult the old Google machine and see for yourself.


It's easy to cry conspiracy when you don't like the results of something. However, it's hard to prove one, as the state just learned. They had these guys dead to rights and they still couldn't prove it. If anyone can explain to me why Penn State would use Paterno is the symbol of their ENTIRE institution - not just their athletic department or their football program, the entire university - for FOUR FULL DECADES and then suddenly decide to make him the biggest pariah in the history of American sports, I am all ears.

However, I will not hold my breath because it is complete nonsense.

CYA as I said.
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2017 11:39 AM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
04-03-2017 11:38 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
You're just talking as a Pitt fan full of hatred for everything PSU.

Paterno screwed up. He admitted that. He saw Sandusky continuing to come to campus with kids after 2001 and never even asked a question.

No one individual knows everything. When you do have a "monarch," people are afraid to approach him. They are often out of touch with the details. And even though he had influence and people listened when he spoke, he didn't make the decisions on campus, only on football.
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