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Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #401
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 10:14 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 05:04 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(04-22-2017 03:49 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(04-22-2017 02:46 PM)Seminole Indian Wrote:  I say CUSA as is will not last 10 years.

Will any conference be unchanged 10 years from now?
The MAC is not certain to be unchanged in 2028, but it's certainly got a chance of being unchanged ... that is, in core memberships. Affiliate agreements are likely to change (indeed, could change in 2018, given Buffalo dropping men's soccer).

There was instability in the MAC in the 90's to early 2000's.

Membership was still in flux with NIU, Akron, Buffalo, Marshall, UCF, Temple and UMass all in or out of the football membership. Other schools didn't make moves but were thinking about it.

At this point which has only been a few years the MAC is the most stable as its ever been. 12 members is about the average size for a D1 conference so the idea the MAC has too many mouth to feed is no longer true. Baseball is only 10 starting next season. Plenty of bowl games out there these days for the MAC too. MAC schools have stepped it up some in FB/BB salaries to a level more normative with the G5.

The traditional reasons of wanting out of the MAC don't exist.

lol...a 10 baseball team is big compared to us. We were down to 8. Wichita gives us 9---back where we started before Temple dropped baseball. 04-cheers
04-23-2017 10:27 AM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #402
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
Can someone explain the MAC upheaval of the 80's and 90's? I remember some schools going Indy. I remember NIU even joining the Big West. Why? That's an interesting topic. Kittonhead? Stay Cool?
04-23-2017 02:34 PM
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panama Offline
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Post: #403
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-22-2017 03:21 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  
(04-21-2017 09:24 PM)panama Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 07:11 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  
(04-17-2017 10:41 PM)panama Wrote:  
(04-17-2017 07:59 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  Nothing of substance to stand on? Start hurling insults. Typical.
No seriously.. I hope end up in a conference far away from you...

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Hoping you get your wish! 04-cheers

Do you think folks from your marketing dept will be at the College Football HOF giving away tickets to our game again this year? If so I may just wait before I buy and save myself $20.
Depends on our record entering the game. Sorry but this isn't some one trick pony town with nothing to do. And by the way we tried for 5 years to get Levick to give away tickets UTSA. They deemed themselves above that.

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70% of the people at App State games do not live in Boone. We don't have to give tickets away, we sell them.
90% of GSU fans and alumni do live in Atlanta and most grew up watching and rooting for the SEC. To most even the Great App State is not a draw. Not trolling just being realistic. If we are winning attendance will do well. If not it will not. We did ok attendance wise at the beginning of last year due to coming off a bowl season. As for giving away tickets I don't have an issue with that. We are not a P5. Get people in the door any way possible and make the case for them to want to pay to return.

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04-23-2017 02:37 PM
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Stay Cool Offline
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Post: #404
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 02:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Can someone explain the MAC upheaval of the 80's and 90's? I remember some schools going Indy. I remember NIU even joining the Big West. Why? That's an interesting topic. Kittonhead? Stay Cool?
Kittonhead is admittedly much more knowledgeable in the subject, I will leave it to him to explain

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04-23-2017 02:39 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #405
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 10:14 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 05:04 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(04-22-2017 03:49 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(04-22-2017 02:46 PM)Seminole Indian Wrote:  I say CUSA as is will not last 10 years.

Will any conference be unchanged 10 years from now?
The MAC is not certain to be unchanged in 2028, but it's certainly got a chance of being unchanged ... that is, in core memberships. Affiliate agreements are likely to change (indeed, could change in 2018, given Buffalo dropping men's soccer).

There was instability in the MAC in the 90's to early 2000's.

Membership was still in flux with NIU, Akron, Buffalo, Marshall, UCF, Temple and UMass all in or out of the football membership. Other schools didn't make moves but were thinking about it.

At this point which has only been a few years the MAC is the most stable as its ever been. 12 members is about the average size for a D1 conference so the idea the MAC has too many mouth to feed is no longer true. Baseball is only 10 starting next season. Plenty of bowl games out there these days for the MAC too. MAC schools have stepped it up some in FB/BB salaries to a level more normative with the G5.

The traditional reasons of wanting out of the MAC don't exist.


It would have been interesting that two of the founding members of the MAC did not dropped down at all. Case Western Reserves and Wayne State, Mich.
Northern Michigan was sharing a conference with the MAC Michigan schools up to the 1980. If they stuck around? They might be also in the WAC, or with Youngstown State which could finally get some D2 Michigan schools move up to FCS football.

But, there are some MAC schools that could be grabbed as well. Western Michigan, Northern Illinois, Toledo, Akron, Miami and Buffalo all could find themselves in a new conference as the better teams to grab for football, basketball and academics.

Old Dominion, Marshall, UTSA, UTEP, Rice, La. Tech, UMass. and Southern Mississippi could be scope up to the next tier of FBS as well.

Arkansas State, Appalachian State and Georgia Southern are a hot teams to get from the SBC for AAC as well.

MVFC as a whole shows that they could compete at the FBS level.

James Madison, Jacksonville State, Eastern Washington, Sam Houston State, Central Arkansas and McNeese are hot in FCS right now. All have beaten FBS teams in recent years.
04-23-2017 03:11 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #406
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 02:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Can someone explain the MAC upheaval of the 80's and 90's? I remember some schools going Indy. I remember NIU even joining the Big West. Why? That's an interesting topic. Kittonhead? Stay Cool?

The common mindset that we know as the "MAC Philosophy" has evolved through the decades.

The MAC didn't compete with a full scholarship allotment prior to the formation of FBS. Louisville and Cincinnati were prepared to join the MAC in the 60's as it was on the rise with all the new dorms built BUT the MAC played at a limited 85 scholarships at a time when the major programs played unlimited.

In comes NIU in the 70's with big dreams. At one point in the early 80's as the MAC was establishing itself in D-1A they forced a vote on EMU and Kent's membership in the MAC. The deal was either EMU & Kent left or they would hit the road. EMU & Kent stayed and subsequently invested heavily in the minor sports to show they had value though they couldn't get FB going. Kent today is too important from the academic perspective to cut but back then was struggling in the wake of the Vietnam War as a liberal public school that was out of favor.

NIU left and the MAC hung in there. In some cases in the 80's they would play FCS schools on the road and in a time when it was PAC, WAC, SWC, Big 8, B1G, SEC, ACC and major independents the MAC was viewed as a tweener FBS/FCS conference, a temporary holding tank from which some might upgrade to CUSA where others were eventually heading down to FCS. In many preseason football magazines the MAC wasn't even included. They were considered not fully at the top level well before that distinction was made.

Then 1992 hit and FBS moved to 85 scholarship football after phasing in less scholarships gradually for a decade. This had a dramatic positive impact on the MAC. By 1995 Toledo was the first team to break into the Top 25 from the MAC in two decades. New schools were moving up to FBS and the sports national popularity was exploding. CUSA 1.0 however was much further ahead of the game and that had MAC schools looking over their shoulder since they couldn't get rolling on bowl games without southern markets.

It was invest or be left behind in the 90's. All the MAC schools invested a lot of money in football. The average MAC stadium size by the late 90's was 28,000 after around 18,000 in the early 80's. The football attendance regulation required an average of 17,000 once every four years or a 30,000 seat stadium so most MAC schools were sporting a 30,000 seat capacity at the time for that reason. Average capacity in the MAC as of 2017 is right around 26,000 so they've pulled out bleachers to right size things.

Marshall was a big shot in the arm for the MAC when they joined in 1997 into a rising conference. Some predicted the demise of the MAC when they moved to CUSA which was like joining the AAC at the time. Then came that big 2003 season where the MAC had 3 teams finish in the AP Top 25 and was near power conference in strength. Marshall departed but the MAC signed its first midweek deal starting the year after they left.

Before the internet there wasn't ready public access to athletic budgets or travel costs. All the public knew was what was on TV or what they could see from the Top 25 polls in the newspaper. College presidents went with their ego's putting their schools into far flung conference for a marginal perceived advantage. Today the push is to go regional and to save on costs if you're not getting a power conference.

There is also bowl saturation where every 6-6 team in the country finds a spot. This a rather recent development. The MAC didn't get a second bowl until 2000 while CUSA had 5 of them. MAC has 5 guaranteed tie-ins so this is no longer a problem for the membership. The two New Year's bowl appearances don't hurt either in the Orange and Cotton Bowl.

Alternate history and the MAC boots out EMU/KSU what happens? Marshall probably still comes and goes. The MAC would have voted in WKU as EMU was the dissenting vote on their admission in 2005 and maybe SIU as a 10th.

Northern Illinois
Southern Illinois
Western Kentucky
Ball State
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Toledo
Bowling Green
Miami
Ohio

The MAC wouldn't have the Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo markets that it does today if that is the way history had gone down.
04-23-2017 06:42 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #407
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 03:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  It would have been interesting that two of the founding members of the MAC did not dropped down at all. Case Western Reserves and Wayne State, Mich.
Northern Michigan was sharing a conference with the MAC Michigan schools up to the 1980. If they stuck around? They might be also in the WAC, or with Youngstown State which could finally get some D2 Michigan schools move up to FCS football.

But, there are some MAC schools that could be grabbed as well. Western Michigan, Northern Illinois, Toledo, Akron, Miami and Buffalo all could find themselves in a new conference as the better teams to grab for football, basketball and academics.

Old Dominion, Marshall, UTSA, UTEP, Rice, La. Tech, UMass. and Southern Mississippi could be scope up to the next tier of FBS as well.

Arkansas State, Appalachian State and Georgia Southern are a hot teams to get from the SBC for AAC as well.

MVFC as a whole shows that they could compete at the FBS level.

James Madison, Jacksonville State, Eastern Washington, Sam Houston State, Central Arkansas and McNeese are hot in FCS right now. All have beaten FBS teams in recent years.

There are two persistent trends I'm seeing at the G5 level.

1) A gradual push for more recruiting oversight to level the playing field.

2) A push to lower costs by regionalism.

The days of where it was advisable to pull a Mountain West and take the 8 schools within a region that brought the most value to make a push to become an AQ conference is over. The MWC lost 3 schools at the beginning of the decade but added 6 as replacements to move to regional divisions.

If a lean conference of 8 FB schools doesn't make sense in the west with little media competition it doesn't make sense in the east where your still looking up at the AAC.

Marshall
App State
Ga Southern
Middle Tenn
Southern Miss
Ark State
LaTech
Louisiana

This is probably the best FB group you could assemble top to bottom but it looks like a FCS conference on paper.

Conferences seem to work better when they have a core market they are built around. In this case would you say Nashville with the proximity of the schools?

Nashville centered mid-south conference...

Arkansas State
Western Kentucky
Middle Tennessee
Marshall
Old Dominion
Liberty
Charlotte
Appalachian State

Your getting some true regionalism with that lineup.
04-23-2017 07:13 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #408
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 07:13 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 03:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  It would have been interesting that two of the founding members of the MAC did not dropped down at all. Case Western Reserves and Wayne State, Mich.
Northern Michigan was sharing a conference with the MAC Michigan schools up to the 1980. If they stuck around? They might be also in the WAC, or with Youngstown State which could finally get some D2 Michigan schools move up to FCS football.

But, there are some MAC schools that could be grabbed as well. Western Michigan, Northern Illinois, Toledo, Akron, Miami and Buffalo all could find themselves in a new conference as the better teams to grab for football, basketball and academics.

Old Dominion, Marshall, UTSA, UTEP, Rice, La. Tech, UMass. and Southern Mississippi could be scope up to the next tier of FBS as well.

Arkansas State, Appalachian State and Georgia Southern are a hot teams to get from the SBC for AAC as well.

MVFC as a whole shows that they could compete at the FBS level.

James Madison, Jacksonville State, Eastern Washington, Sam Houston State, Central Arkansas and McNeese are hot in FCS right now. All have beaten FBS teams in recent years.

There are two persistent trends I'm seeing at the G5 level.

1) A gradual push for more recruiting oversight to level the playing field.

2) A push to lower costs by regionalism.

The days of where it was advisable to pull a Mountain West and take the 8 schools within a region that brought the most value to make a push to become an AQ conference is over. The MWC lost 3 schools at the beginning of the decade but added 6 as replacements to move to regional divisions.

If a lean conference of 8 FB schools doesn't make sense in the west with little media competition it doesn't make sense in the east where your still looking up at the AAC.

Marshall
App State
Ga Southern
Middle Tenn
Southern Miss
Ark State
LaTech
Louisiana

This is probably the best FB group you could assemble top to bottom but it looks like a FCS conference on paper.

Conferences seem to work better when they have a core market they are built around. In this case would you say Nashville with the proximity of the schools?

Nashville centered mid-south conference...

Arkansas State
Western Kentucky
Middle Tennessee
Marshall
Old Dominion
Liberty
Charlotte
Appalachian State

Your getting some true regionalism with that lineup.


MWC is not really regional as it is. If they could be there?

Northwest:
Portland State
Boise State
UNR
Eastern Washington
Utah State

Southwest:
Hawaii
San Diego State
San Jose State
Fresno State
Sacramento State/Cal.Davis/Cal. Poly

Desert:
UNLV
Northern Arizona
New Mexico
New Mexico State
UTEP

East:
Colorado State
Air Force
Wyoming
Montana
Montana State

That would be regional as you can get. Boise State in the Mountain Division is not east. They are outside of it.

If you break it down? Arkansas State would be more of an outlier than the schools you mentioned. I would put in James Madison, Stony Brook, Toledo, Youngstown State, or others in the area that could work regionally.
04-23-2017 07:35 PM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #409
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 06:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 02:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Can someone explain the MAC upheaval of the 80's and 90's? I remember some schools going Indy. I remember NIU even joining the Big West. Why? That's an interesting topic. Kittonhead? Stay Cool?

The common mindset that we know as the "MAC Philosophy" has evolved through the decades.

The MAC didn't compete with a full scholarship allotment prior to the formation of FBS. Louisville and Cincinnati were prepared to join the MAC in the 60's as it was on the rise with all the new dorms built BUT the MAC played at a limited 85 scholarships at a time when the major programs played unlimited.

In comes NIU in the 70's with big dreams. At one point in the early 80's as the MAC was establishing itself in D-1A they forced a vote on EMU and Kent's membership in the MAC. The deal was either EMU & Kent left or they would hit the road. EMU & Kent stayed and subsequently invested heavily in the minor sports to show they had value though they couldn't get FB going. Kent today is too important from the academic perspective to cut but back then was struggling in the wake of the Vietnam War as a liberal public school that was out of favor.

NIU left and the MAC hung in there. In some cases in the 80's they would play FCS schools on the road and in a time when it was PAC, WAC, SWC, Big 8, B1G, SEC, ACC and major independents the MAC was viewed as a tweener FBS/FCS conference, a temporary holding tank from which some might upgrade to CUSA where others were eventually heading down to FCS. In many preseason football magazines the MAC wasn't even included. They were considered not fully at the top level well before that distinction was made.

Then 1992 hit and FBS moved to 85 scholarship football after phasing in less scholarships gradually for a decade. This had a dramatic positive impact on the MAC. By 1995 Toledo was the first team to break into the Top 25 from the MAC in two decades. New schools were moving up to FBS and the sports national popularity was exploding. CUSA 1.0 however was much further ahead of the game and that had MAC schools looking over their shoulder since they couldn't get rolling on bowl games without southern markets.

It was invest or be left behind in the 90's. All the MAC schools invested a lot of money in football. The average MAC stadium size by the late 90's was 28,000 after around 18,000 in the early 80's. The football attendance regulation required an average of 17,000 once every four years or a 30,000 seat stadium so most MAC schools were sporting a 30,000 seat capacity at the time for that reason. Average capacity in the MAC as of 2017 is right around 26,000 so they've pulled out bleachers to right size things.

Marshall was a big shot in the arm for the MAC when they joined in 1997 into a rising conference. Some predicted the demise of the MAC when they moved to CUSA which was like joining the AAC at the time. Then came that big 2003 season where the MAC had 3 teams finish in the AP Top 25 and was near power conference in strength. Marshall departed but the MAC signed its first midweek deal starting the year after they left.

Before the internet there wasn't ready public access to athletic budgets or travel costs. All the public knew was what was on TV or what they could see from the Top 25 polls in the newspaper. College presidents went with their ego's putting their schools into far flung conference for a marginal perceived advantage. Today the push is to go regional and to save on costs if you're not getting a power conference.

There is also bowl saturation where every 6-6 team in the country finds a spot. This a rather recent development. The MAC didn't get a second bowl until 2000 while CUSA had 5 of them. MAC has 5 guaranteed tie-ins so this is no longer a problem for the membership. The two New Year's bowl appearances don't hurt either in the Orange and Cotton Bowl.

Alternate history and the MAC boots out EMU/KSU what happens? Marshall probably still comes and goes. The MAC would have voted in WKU as EMU was the dissenting vote on their admission in 2005 and maybe SIU as a 10th.

Northern Illinois
Southern Illinois
Western Kentucky
Ball State
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Toledo
Bowling Green
Miami
Ohio

The MAC wouldn't have the Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo markets that it does today if that is the way history had gone down.

I'm one that believes that like schools should associate with each other, so I like the MAC. I've never lived in that area, but I have traveled there plenty for work, and have visited some of the campuses. They're not big-time, but they're not small-time, either. What I like the most is their similarity to each other: all of them are public schools with 18-30,000 in enrollment. Some (Miami, Ohio, Buffalo) have a higher academic reputation than others, but they are close in proximity and more alike than different. They'll never be Ohio State or Michigan, but you could do worse than the MAC.
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2017 07:40 PM by johnintx.)
04-23-2017 07:38 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #410
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 07:38 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 06:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 02:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Can someone explain the MAC upheaval of the 80's and 90's? I remember some schools going Indy. I remember NIU even joining the Big West. Why? That's an interesting topic. Kittonhead? Stay Cool?

The common mindset that we know as the "MAC Philosophy" has evolved through the decades.

The MAC didn't compete with a full scholarship allotment prior to the formation of FBS. Louisville and Cincinnati were prepared to join the MAC in the 60's as it was on the rise with all the new dorms built BUT the MAC played at a limited 85 scholarships at a time when the major programs played unlimited.

In comes NIU in the 70's with big dreams. At one point in the early 80's as the MAC was establishing itself in D-1A they forced a vote on EMU and Kent's membership in the MAC. The deal was either EMU & Kent left or they would hit the road. EMU & Kent stayed and subsequently invested heavily in the minor sports to show they had value though they couldn't get FB going. Kent today is too important from the academic perspective to cut but back then was struggling in the wake of the Vietnam War as a liberal public school that was out of favor.

NIU left and the MAC hung in there. In some cases in the 80's they would play FCS schools on the road and in a time when it was PAC, WAC, SWC, Big 8, B1G, SEC, ACC and major independents the MAC was viewed as a tweener FBS/FCS conference, a temporary holding tank from which some might upgrade to CUSA where others were eventually heading down to FCS. In many preseason football magazines the MAC wasn't even included. They were considered not fully at the top level well before that distinction was made.

Then 1992 hit and FBS moved to 85 scholarship football after phasing in less scholarships gradually for a decade. This had a dramatic positive impact on the MAC. By 1995 Toledo was the first team to break into the Top 25 from the MAC in two decades. New schools were moving up to FBS and the sports national popularity was exploding. CUSA 1.0 however was much further ahead of the game and that had MAC schools looking over their shoulder since they couldn't get rolling on bowl games without southern markets.

It was invest or be left behind in the 90's. All the MAC schools invested a lot of money in football. The average MAC stadium size by the late 90's was 28,000 after around 18,000 in the early 80's. The football attendance regulation required an average of 17,000 once every four years or a 30,000 seat stadium so most MAC schools were sporting a 30,000 seat capacity at the time for that reason. Average capacity in the MAC as of 2017 is right around 26,000 so they've pulled out bleachers to right size things.

Marshall was a big shot in the arm for the MAC when they joined in 1997 into a rising conference. Some predicted the demise of the MAC when they moved to CUSA which was like joining the AAC at the time. Then came that big 2003 season where the MAC had 3 teams finish in the AP Top 25 and was near power conference in strength. Marshall departed but the MAC signed its first midweek deal starting the year after they left.

Before the internet there wasn't ready public access to athletic budgets or travel costs. All the public knew was what was on TV or what they could see from the Top 25 polls in the newspaper. College presidents went with their ego's putting their schools into far flung conference for a marginal perceived advantage. Today the push is to go regional and to save on costs if you're not getting a power conference.

There is also bowl saturation where every 6-6 team in the country finds a spot. This a rather recent development. The MAC didn't get a second bowl until 2000 while CUSA had 5 of them. MAC has 5 guaranteed tie-ins so this is no longer a problem for the membership. The two New Year's bowl appearances don't hurt either in the Orange and Cotton Bowl.

Alternate history and the MAC boots out EMU/KSU what happens? Marshall probably still comes and goes. The MAC would have voted in WKU as EMU was the dissenting vote on their admission in 2005 and maybe SIU as a 10th.

Northern Illinois
Southern Illinois
Western Kentucky
Ball State
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Toledo
Bowling Green
Miami
Ohio

The MAC wouldn't have the Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo markets that it does today if that is the way history had gone down.

I'm one that believes that like schools should associate with each other, so I like the MAC. I've never lived in that area, but I have traveled there plenty for work, and have visited some of the campuses. They're not big-time, but they're not small-time, either. What I like the most is their similarity to each other: all of them are public schools with 18-30,000 in enrollment. Some (Miami, Ohio, Buffalo) have a higher academic reputation than others, but they are close in proximity and more alike than different. They'll never be Ohio State or Michigan, but you could do worse than the MAC.

The B1G is known to attract a good caliber of student with strong professional.

The MAC is overflow for the B1G and in some cases a replacement for it as not everyone wants to be on a mega sized campus. Socioeconomics are comparable which is an edge in recruiting vs. SBC/CUSA little country schools.

Its becoming more of a top heavy conference in FB/BB. BB has Akron, Kent, Ohio and Buffalo every year near the top. FB its NIU, Toledo, Ohio consistent. It's not a cakewalk to win anymore. In the 80's any MAC school could win the conference in any sport on a given year with the right coaching job. Now the MAC has programs.

And its definitely at the top of the non-power food chain in the Midwest....MAC, MVC, Horizon, Summit, WAC with the FBS football.

Most agree there is definitely going to be at a minimum some more realignment. That will probably cut the AAC down to size.

PAC (Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU)
B12 (BYU, Colorado St, Houston, SMU, Memphis, Cincinnati)
MWC (UTEP)
AAC (Charlotte, ODU)
CUSA (NMSU)

Leaves the AAC at 10, CUSA at 12 with some of the best G5 access bowl contenders out of the way and in a P5. This would make it easier for the MAC as the AAC would not be as strong.
04-23-2017 08:05 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #411
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-23-2017 06:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 02:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Can someone explain the MAC upheaval of the 80's and 90's? I remember some schools going Indy. I remember NIU even joining the Big West. Why? That's an interesting topic. Kittonhead? Stay Cool?

The common mindset that we know as the "MAC Philosophy" has evolved through the decades.

The MAC didn't compete with a full scholarship allotment prior to the formation of FBS. Louisville and Cincinnati were prepared to join the MAC in the 60's as it was on the rise with all the new dorms built BUT the MAC played at a limited 85 scholarships at a time when the major programs played unlimited.

In comes NIU in the 70's with big dreams. At one point in the early 80's as the MAC was establishing itself in D-1A they forced a vote on EMU and Kent's membership in the MAC. The deal was either EMU & Kent left or they would hit the road. EMU & Kent stayed and subsequently invested heavily in the minor sports to show they had value though they couldn't get FB going. Kent today is too important from the academic perspective to cut but back then was struggling in the wake of the Vietnam War as a liberal public school that was out of favor.

NIU left and the MAC hung in there. In some cases in the 80's they would play FCS schools on the road and in a time when it was PAC, WAC, SWC, Big 8, B1G, SEC, ACC and major independents the MAC was viewed as a tweener FBS/FCS conference, a temporary holding tank from which some might upgrade to CUSA where others were eventually heading down to FCS. In many preseason football magazines the MAC wasn't even included. They were considered not fully at the top level well before that distinction was made.

Then 1992 hit and FBS moved to 85 scholarship football after phasing in less scholarships gradually for a decade. This had a dramatic positive impact on the MAC. By 1995 Toledo was the first team to break into the Top 25 from the MAC in two decades. New schools were moving up to FBS and the sports national popularity was exploding. CUSA 1.0 however was much further ahead of the game and that had MAC schools looking over their shoulder since they couldn't get rolling on bowl games without southern markets.

It was invest or be left behind in the 90's. All the MAC schools invested a lot of money in football. The average MAC stadium size by the late 90's was 28,000 after around 18,000 in the early 80's. The football attendance regulation required an average of 17,000 once every four years or a 30,000 seat stadium so most MAC schools were sporting a 30,000 seat capacity at the time for that reason. Average capacity in the MAC as of 2017 is right around 26,000 so they've pulled out bleachers to right size things.

Marshall was a big shot in the arm for the MAC when they joined in 1997 into a rising conference. Some predicted the demise of the MAC when they moved to CUSA which was like joining the AAC at the time. Then came that big 2003 season where the MAC had 3 teams finish in the AP Top 25 and was near power conference in strength. Marshall departed but the MAC signed its first midweek deal starting the year after they left.

Before the internet there wasn't ready public access to athletic budgets or travel costs. All the public knew was what was on TV or what they could see from the Top 25 polls in the newspaper. College presidents went with their ego's putting their schools into far flung conference for a marginal perceived advantage. Today the push is to go regional and to save on costs if you're not getting a power conference.

There is also bowl saturation where every 6-6 team in the country finds a spot. This a rather recent development. The MAC didn't get a second bowl until 2000 while CUSA had 5 of them. MAC has 5 guaranteed tie-ins so this is no longer a problem for the membership. The two New Year's bowl appearances don't hurt either in the Orange and Cotton Bowl.

Alternate history and the MAC boots out EMU/KSU what happens? Marshall probably still comes and goes. The MAC would have voted in WKU as EMU was the dissenting vote on their admission in 2005 and maybe SIU as a 10th.

Northern Illinois
Southern Illinois
Western Kentucky
Ball State
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Toledo
Bowling Green
Miami
Ohio

The MAC wouldn't have the Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo markets that it does today if that is the way history had gone down.

Thanks for this Kittonhead. I like reading about the histories of the conferences. I know everything about the Metro, WAC and CUSA formations....but the MAC has a great history that I'm trying to get more info on.
04-24-2017 06:26 PM
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Stay Cool Offline
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Posts: 8,218
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Post: #412
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-24-2017 06:26 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 06:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 02:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Can someone explain the MAC upheaval of the 80's and 90's? I remember some schools going Indy. I remember NIU even joining the Big West. Why? That's an interesting topic. Kittonhead? Stay Cool?

The common mindset that we know as the "MAC Philosophy" has evolved through the decades.

The MAC didn't compete with a full scholarship allotment prior to the formation of FBS. Louisville and Cincinnati were prepared to join the MAC in the 60's as it was on the rise with all the new dorms built BUT the MAC played at a limited 85 scholarships at a time when the major programs played unlimited.

In comes NIU in the 70's with big dreams. At one point in the early 80's as the MAC was establishing itself in D-1A they forced a vote on EMU and Kent's membership in the MAC. The deal was either EMU & Kent left or they would hit the road. EMU & Kent stayed and subsequently invested heavily in the minor sports to show they had value though they couldn't get FB going. Kent today is too important from the academic perspective to cut but back then was struggling in the wake of the Vietnam War as a liberal public school that was out of favor.

NIU left and the MAC hung in there. In some cases in the 80's they would play FCS schools on the road and in a time when it was PAC, WAC, SWC, Big 8, B1G, SEC, ACC and major independents the MAC was viewed as a tweener FBS/FCS conference, a temporary holding tank from which some might upgrade to CUSA where others were eventually heading down to FCS. In many preseason football magazines the MAC wasn't even included. They were considered not fully at the top level well before that distinction was made.

Then 1992 hit and FBS moved to 85 scholarship football after phasing in less scholarships gradually for a decade. This had a dramatic positive impact on the MAC. By 1995 Toledo was the first team to break into the Top 25 from the MAC in two decades. New schools were moving up to FBS and the sports national popularity was exploding. CUSA 1.0 however was much further ahead of the game and that had MAC schools looking over their shoulder since they couldn't get rolling on bowl games without southern markets.

It was invest or be left behind in the 90's. All the MAC schools invested a lot of money in football. The average MAC stadium size by the late 90's was 28,000 after around 18,000 in the early 80's. The football attendance regulation required an average of 17,000 once every four years or a 30,000 seat stadium so most MAC schools were sporting a 30,000 seat capacity at the time for that reason. Average capacity in the MAC as of 2017 is right around 26,000 so they've pulled out bleachers to right size things.

Marshall was a big shot in the arm for the MAC when they joined in 1997 into a rising conference. Some predicted the demise of the MAC when they moved to CUSA which was like joining the AAC at the time. Then came that big 2003 season where the MAC had 3 teams finish in the AP Top 25 and was near power conference in strength. Marshall departed but the MAC signed its first midweek deal starting the year after they left.

Before the internet there wasn't ready public access to athletic budgets or travel costs. All the public knew was what was on TV or what they could see from the Top 25 polls in the newspaper. College presidents went with their ego's putting their schools into far flung conference for a marginal perceived advantage. Today the push is to go regional and to save on costs if you're not getting a power conference.

There is also bowl saturation where every 6-6 team in the country finds a spot. This a rather recent development. The MAC didn't get a second bowl until 2000 while CUSA had 5 of them. MAC has 5 guaranteed tie-ins so this is no longer a problem for the membership. The two New Year's bowl appearances don't hurt either in the Orange and Cotton Bowl.

Alternate history and the MAC boots out EMU/KSU what happens? Marshall probably still comes and goes. The MAC would have voted in WKU as EMU was the dissenting vote on their admission in 2005 and maybe SIU as a 10th.

Northern Illinois
Southern Illinois
Western Kentucky
Ball State
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Toledo
Bowling Green
Miami
Ohio

The MAC wouldn't have the Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo markets that it does today if that is the way history had gone down.

Thanks for this Kittonhead. I like reading about the histories of the conferences. I know everything about the Metro, WAC and CUSA formations....but the MAC has a great history that I'm trying to get more info on.
Like I said, WAAAAY more knowledgeable on that than I would've been...


Now if you need someone to pander on about an AAC invite, look no further!

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
04-24-2017 09:06 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
The REAL BillyBobby
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Posts: 11,898
Joined: May 2013
Reputation: 502
I Root For: ECU, Army
Location: Houston dont sleepon
Post: #413
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(04-24-2017 09:06 PM)Stay Cool Wrote:  
(04-24-2017 06:26 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 06:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(04-23-2017 02:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Can someone explain the MAC upheaval of the 80's and 90's? I remember some schools going Indy. I remember NIU even joining the Big West. Why? That's an interesting topic. Kittonhead? Stay Cool?

The common mindset that we know as the "MAC Philosophy" has evolved through the decades.

The MAC didn't compete with a full scholarship allotment prior to the formation of FBS. Louisville and Cincinnati were prepared to join the MAC in the 60's as it was on the rise with all the new dorms built BUT the MAC played at a limited 85 scholarships at a time when the major programs played unlimited.

In comes NIU in the 70's with big dreams. At one point in the early 80's as the MAC was establishing itself in D-1A they forced a vote on EMU and Kent's membership in the MAC. The deal was either EMU & Kent left or they would hit the road. EMU & Kent stayed and subsequently invested heavily in the minor sports to show they had value though they couldn't get FB going. Kent today is too important from the academic perspective to cut but back then was struggling in the wake of the Vietnam War as a liberal public school that was out of favor.

NIU left and the MAC hung in there. In some cases in the 80's they would play FCS schools on the road and in a time when it was PAC, WAC, SWC, Big 8, B1G, SEC, ACC and major independents the MAC was viewed as a tweener FBS/FCS conference, a temporary holding tank from which some might upgrade to CUSA where others were eventually heading down to FCS. In many preseason football magazines the MAC wasn't even included. They were considered not fully at the top level well before that distinction was made.

Then 1992 hit and FBS moved to 85 scholarship football after phasing in less scholarships gradually for a decade. This had a dramatic positive impact on the MAC. By 1995 Toledo was the first team to break into the Top 25 from the MAC in two decades. New schools were moving up to FBS and the sports national popularity was exploding. CUSA 1.0 however was much further ahead of the game and that had MAC schools looking over their shoulder since they couldn't get rolling on bowl games without southern markets.

It was invest or be left behind in the 90's. All the MAC schools invested a lot of money in football. The average MAC stadium size by the late 90's was 28,000 after around 18,000 in the early 80's. The football attendance regulation required an average of 17,000 once every four years or a 30,000 seat stadium so most MAC schools were sporting a 30,000 seat capacity at the time for that reason. Average capacity in the MAC as of 2017 is right around 26,000 so they've pulled out bleachers to right size things.

Marshall was a big shot in the arm for the MAC when they joined in 1997 into a rising conference. Some predicted the demise of the MAC when they moved to CUSA which was like joining the AAC at the time. Then came that big 2003 season where the MAC had 3 teams finish in the AP Top 25 and was near power conference in strength. Marshall departed but the MAC signed its first midweek deal starting the year after they left.

Before the internet there wasn't ready public access to athletic budgets or travel costs. All the public knew was what was on TV or what they could see from the Top 25 polls in the newspaper. College presidents went with their ego's putting their schools into far flung conference for a marginal perceived advantage. Today the push is to go regional and to save on costs if you're not getting a power conference.

There is also bowl saturation where every 6-6 team in the country finds a spot. This a rather recent development. The MAC didn't get a second bowl until 2000 while CUSA had 5 of them. MAC has 5 guaranteed tie-ins so this is no longer a problem for the membership. The two New Year's bowl appearances don't hurt either in the Orange and Cotton Bowl.

Alternate history and the MAC boots out EMU/KSU what happens? Marshall probably still comes and goes. The MAC would have voted in WKU as EMU was the dissenting vote on their admission in 2005 and maybe SIU as a 10th.

Northern Illinois
Southern Illinois
Western Kentucky
Ball State
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
Toledo
Bowling Green
Miami
Ohio

The MAC wouldn't have the Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo markets that it does today if that is the way history had gone down.

Thanks for this Kittonhead. I like reading about the histories of the conferences. I know everything about the Metro, WAC and CUSA formations....but the MAC has a great history that I'm trying to get more info on.
Like I said, WAAAAY more knowledgeable on that than I would've been...


Now if you need someone to pander on about an AAC invite, look no further!

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Hahahaha. I've noticed you have 2 P5's coming to NIU in 2018!! Florida St and someone else! Great opportunity....
04-24-2017 10:27 PM
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