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Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 04:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Arguably? The SBC has been better than C-USA, in football at least. C-USA overexpanded. I get the rationale but they still overexpanded.

The rationale that start up programs in big markets would lead to bigger media $? I think a lot of us were saying WTF? as CUSA was adding FIU, FAU, ODU, Charlotte, MTSU, WKU, UTSA, UNT. They added brand new city programs with North, South, East, West, Middle, oceans and internationals in their names. It was like watching a train wreck that wouldn't stop. Or maybe a city bus with no breaks, and seeing it take a guys head off and Sandra Bullock saying, "he's ok, right?" No, he isn't ok. He died.
Cheers!
03-20-2017 04:43 PM
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indianasniff Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-18-2017 08:48 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  This 14 member behemoth just seems to be too big and unwieldily and sent delivering the kind of tv contract the old line up did. I think it's time to consider splitting the east and west apart and having each side pick up 3 additional members to create two 10 member leagues.

Possible additions
WEST: UL Lafayette, Arkansas St, Texas St (others include NMSU and S Alabama)
EAST: James Madison, Georgia St, Georgia Southern, App St, S Alabama

i don't think the current continuity rules would prohibit both sides from autobids.

Yes...
03-20-2017 04:54 PM
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C2__ Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 04:43 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 04:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Arguably? The SBC has been better than C-USA, in football at least. C-USA overexpanded. I get the rationale but they still overexpanded.

The rationale that start up programs in big markets would lead to bigger media $? I think a lot of us were saying WTF? as CUSA was adding FIU, FAU, ODU, Charlotte, MTSU, WKU, UTSA, UNT. They added brand new city programs with North, South, East, West, Middle, oceans and internationals in their names. It was like watching a train wreck that wouldn't stop. Or maybe a city bus with no breaks, and seeing it take a guys head off and Sandra Bullock saying, "he's ok, right?" No, he isn't ok. He died.
Cheers!

The rationale is that you gut the conference below you so that you appear superior if you get gutted and have leverage over the conference below you. The problem is that they added a lot of fat and little muscle. The Sun Belt lacks an academic power and big markets but makes up for it by having solid programs with heart like Troy and Appalachian State. Western Kentucky is C-USA's flag bearer but they have little relative academic prowess and a minimal market. Plus, they'really good but not top 25 good.
03-20-2017 05:08 PM
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ESE84 Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
Are you AAC guys done dumping on your prior conference? Congratulations on how you finished 2016, and forgot about 2014. Things can change quickly in the G5, and Florida International and Florida Atlantic made some interesting football hires. Bring on 2017.
03-20-2017 05:32 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 05:32 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  Are you AAC guys done dumping on your prior conference? Congratulations on how you finished 2016, and forgot about 2014. Things can change quickly in the G5, and Florida International and Florida Atlantic made some interesting football hires. Bring on 2017.

Not dumping on it. Just talking about options past and present. The AAC would probably like a few do overs as well. Ive been pretty honest in my belief that we made some errors---blowing the western expansion and I dont think we shouldn't have sold the Big East name--two major errors (my opinion) we've discussed just in the last few days. Some think the proposed adding of Wichita is another (not me).
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 05:48 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-20-2017 05:44 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 05:32 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  Are you AAC guys done dumping on your prior conference? Congratulations on how you finished 2016, and forgot about 2014. Things can change quickly in the G5, and Florida International and Florida Atlantic made some interesting football hires. Bring on 2017.

Rice is a great school and a victim of conference realignment. I think everyone in the AAC respects Rice.

Cheers!
03-20-2017 05:46 PM
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ESE84 Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues. I'm not sure who backed out or if it was mutual (both leagues announced they were adding new members on the exact same day). Had the C-USA group stuck with it UTEP and Rice would have been in an exceedingly better situation. USM, UAB, and Marshall would have had mixed feelings about the end result because they'd be geographic oddities but at least they'd be making more money. I think the end result would have been a 16 member group of:

Hawaii (FB only)
San Diego St
Fresno St
Nevada
UNLV
Boise St

Wyoming
Colorado St
Air Force
New Mexico
UTEP
Rice

USM
UAB
Marshall
A 16th school

If this is still viable, the MWC could make it happen by offering membership to UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, and one other (Louisiana Tech?).
03-20-2017 05:57 PM
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C2__ Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 05:32 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  Are you AAC guys done dumping on your prior conference? Congratulations on how you finished 2016, and forgot about 2014. Things can change quickly in the G5, and Florida International and Florida Atlantic made some interesting football hires. Bring on 2017.

Insecurity...all I said was that C-USA overexpanded, which it did. Heck it might look better today as a 9/10 team conferences rather than as a 14 team monstrosity.

As someone already said, the AAC added too many teams too, like Tulane.
03-20-2017 06:36 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 06:36 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 05:32 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  Are you AAC guys done dumping on your prior conference? Congratulations on how you finished 2016, and forgot about 2014. Things can change quickly in the G5, and Florida International and Florida Atlantic made some interesting football hires. Bring on 2017.

Insecurity...all I said was that C-USA overexpanded, which it did. Heck it might look better today as a 9/10 team conferences rather than as a 14 team monstrosity.

As someone already said, the AAC added too many teams too, like Tulane.

After last year's vote on football CCGs, there were probably many G5 ADs and coaches who thought, "Oh, NOW you tell us a conference only needs 10 teams for a title game!"
03-20-2017 07:28 PM
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Side Show Joe Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 04:43 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 04:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Arguably? The SBC has been better than C-USA, in football at least. C-USA overexpanded. I get the rationale but they still overexpanded.

The rationale that start up programs in big markets would lead to bigger media $? I think a lot of us were saying WTF? as CUSA was adding FIU, FAU, ODU, Charlotte, MTSU, WKU, UTSA, UNT. They added brand new city programs with North, South, East, West, Middle, oceans and internationals in their names. It was like watching a train wreck that wouldn't stop. Or maybe a city bus with no breaks, and seeing it take a guys head off and Sandra Bullock saying, "he's ok, right?" No, he isn't ok. He died.
Cheers!

You seem to be an EAST Carolina fan. Since you are a fan of a directional school, I don't really understand your problem with the directional titles.

Overall, North Texas has been a good football addition. The Mean Green have been to 2 bowls in 4 seasons. Of the hold over C-USA programs, only Marshall has been to more. Like North Texas, Rice and USM have also been to 2 bowls in the past 4 seasons. But, WKU (3 bowls), LA Tech (3 bowls), Middle Tennessee (3 bowls), and North Texas (2 bowls), have been to almost 48% of all of C-USA's bowl games over the past four seasons. The hold over teams, Marshall (3 bowls), Southern Miss (2 bowls), Rice (2 bowls), and UTEP (1 bowl), have only been to 38% of C-USA's bowls over the past 4 seasons. In 2016, 6 of C-USA's 7 bowl games were filled by teams added to the conference since 2013. Southern Miss was the only team from the old guard to make a bowl this past season.

Yes, C-USA football has been down recently, but lets not be so quick to place all of the blame on the new programs.
03-20-2017 08:12 PM
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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
Having 14 teams makes it hard for us to be comparatively better than other conferences. There's always a few sucking ass every season. It's not necessarily the same ones or the ones you think. Marshall & USM have both been anchors in recent seasons and UTEP in BB.
03-20-2017 08:33 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 08:12 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 04:43 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 04:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Arguably? The SBC has been better than C-USA, in football at least. C-USA overexpanded. I get the rationale but they still overexpanded.

The rationale that start up programs in big markets would lead to bigger media $? I think a lot of us were saying WTF? as CUSA was adding FIU, FAU, ODU, Charlotte, MTSU, WKU, UTSA, UNT. They added brand new city programs with North, South, East, West, Middle, oceans and internationals in their names. It was like watching a train wreck that wouldn't stop. Or maybe a city bus with no breaks, and seeing it take a guys head off and Sandra Bullock saying, "he's ok, right?" No, he isn't ok. He died.
Cheers!

You seem to be an EAST Carolina fan. Since you are a fan of a directional school, I don't really understand your problem with the directional titles.

Overall, North Texas has been a good football addition. The Mean Green have been to 2 bowls in 4 seasons. Of the hold over C-USA programs, only Marshall has been to more. Like North Texas, Rice and USM have also been to 2 bowls in the past 4 seasons. But, WKU (3 bowls), LA Tech (3 bowls), Middle Tennessee (3 bowls), and North Texas (2 bowls), have been to almost 48% of all of C-USA's bowl games over the past four seasons. The hold over teams, Marshall (3 bowls), Southern Miss (2 bowls), Rice (2 bowls), and UTEP (1 bowl), have only been to 38% of C-USA's bowls over the past 4 seasons. In 2016, 6 of C-USA's 7 bowl games were filled by teams added to the conference since 2013. Southern Miss was the only team from the old guard to make a bowl this past season.

Yes, C-USA football has been down recently, but lets not be so quick to place all of the blame on the new programs.

Well it's not East North Carolina. But it was more of a joke that CUSA has added a ton of brand new football programs. ECU has played more games vs P5 schools like VT than most CUSA schools have been playing D1/FBS football. We've been around. North Texas has more D1 years than 9 of 14 CUSA schools. You guys are almost a legacy program in CUSA.
Cheers!
03-20-2017 09:42 PM
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Post: #93
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 08:12 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 04:43 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 04:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Arguably? The SBC has been better than C-USA, in football at least. C-USA overexpanded. I get the rationale but they still overexpanded.

The rationale that start up programs in big markets would lead to bigger media $? I think a lot of us were saying WTF? as CUSA was adding FIU, FAU, ODU, Charlotte, MTSU, WKU, UTSA, UNT. They added brand new city programs with North, South, East, West, Middle, oceans and internationals in their names. It was like watching a train wreck that wouldn't stop. Or maybe a city bus with no breaks, and seeing it take a guys head off and Sandra Bullock saying, "he's ok, right?" No, he isn't ok. He died.
Cheers!

You seem to be an EAST Carolina fan. Since you are a fan of a directional school, I don't really understand your problem with the directional titles.

Overall, North Texas has been a good football addition. The Mean Green have been to 2 bowls in 4 seasons. Of the hold over C-USA programs, only Marshall has been to more. Like North Texas, Rice and USM have also been to 2 bowls in the past 4 seasons. But, WKU (3 bowls), LA Tech (3 bowls), Middle Tennessee (3 bowls), and North Texas (2 bowls), have been to almost 48% of all of C-USA's bowl games over the past four seasons. The hold over teams, Marshall (3 bowls), Southern Miss (2 bowls), Rice (2 bowls), and UTEP (1 bowl), have only been to 38% of C-USA's bowls over the past 4 seasons. In 2016, 6 of C-USA's 7 bowl games were filled by teams added to the conference since 2013. Southern Miss was the only team from the old guard to make a bowl this past season.

Yes, C-USA football has been down recently, but lets not be so quick to place all of the blame on the new programs.

The same North Texas team that was routed by 59 by Portland State at home in that time span? Going to a bowl means little now days, especially when you aren't even over .500 in a bad conference like this past year for UNT.
03-20-2017 10:47 PM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Post: #94
Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 05:57 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues. I'm not sure who backed out or if it was mutual (both leagues announced they were adding new members on the exact same day). Had the C-USA group stuck with it UTEP and Rice would have been in an exceedingly better situation. USM, UAB, and Marshall would have had mixed feelings about the end result because they'd be geographic oddities but at least they'd be making more money. I think the end result would have been a 16 member group of:

Hawaii (FB only)
San Diego St
Fresno St
Nevada
UNLV
Boise St

Wyoming
Colorado St
Air Force
New Mexico
UTEP
Rice

USM
UAB
Marshall
A 16th school

If this is still viable, the MWC could make it happen by offering membership to UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, and one other (Louisiana Tech?).

Sure this arrangement is still viable.
But in 2017, what's in it for the MWC? How does this make the league better overall, and how would you manage "logistics" that broke the WAC16 apart?
The logistics can be fixed but without the first part what's the benefit?

Another key driver to MWC expansion and (in my opinion/recollection) to the MWC+CUSA merger was the old BCS rules. Halfway through the BCS era, Congress made them change the rules to make BCS qualification merit-based. Why did Boise join MWC? To get Boise, TCU, Utah all in the same conference for BCS auto-bid qualification. But TCU got plucked and the merger would have brought in UH, again to help meet football auto-bid qualification criteria. Then around the same time (check my timelines but you get the idea) Utah (and Orrin Hatch) got plucked and then word got out that BCS was ending and being replaced by a new system, anyway.
I'm sure that one of the reasons Big East invited both TCU and Boise was to hang on to their BCS autobid.
03-21-2017 08:15 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #95
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-21-2017 08:15 AM)owl at the moon Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 05:57 PM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues. I'm not sure who backed out or if it was mutual (both leagues announced they were adding new members on the exact same day). Had the C-USA group stuck with it UTEP and Rice would have been in an exceedingly better situation. USM, UAB, and Marshall would have had mixed feelings about the end result because they'd be geographic oddities but at least they'd be making more money. I think the end result would have been a 16 member group of:

Hawaii (FB only)
San Diego St
Fresno St
Nevada
UNLV
Boise St

Wyoming
Colorado St
Air Force
New Mexico
UTEP
Rice

USM
UAB
Marshall
A 16th school

If this is still viable, the MWC could make it happen by offering membership to UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, and one other (Louisiana Tech?).

Sure this arrangement is still viable.
But in 2017, what's in it for the MWC? How does this make the league better overall, and how would you manage "logistics" that broke the WAC16 apart?
The logistics can be fixed but without the first part what's the benefit?

Another key driver to MWC expansion and (in my opinion/recollection) to the MWC+CUSA merger was the old BCS rules. Halfway through the BCS era, Congress made them change the rules to make BCS qualification merit-based. Why did Boise join MWC? To get Boise, TCU, Utah all in the same conference for BCS auto-bid qualification. But TCU got plucked and the merger would have brought in UH, again to help meet football auto-bid qualification criteria. Then around the same time (check my timelines but you get the idea) Utah (and Orrin Hatch) got plucked and then word got out that BCS was ending and being replaced by a new system, anyway.
I'm sure that one of the reasons Big East invited both TCU and Boise was to hang on to their BCS autobid.

It was the only reason!!!
03-21-2017 08:28 AM
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Post: #96
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 07:28 PM)Wedge Wrote:  After last year's vote on football CCGs, there were probably many G5 ADs and coaches who thought, "Oh, NOW you tell us a conference only needs 10 teams for a title game!"

There are significant benefits to having more conference teams -- if you pick the right teams.

The Big Ten figured the game out, when it added Maryland and Rutgers. Those are two conference wins per year for Penn St, Michigan, Ohio St, and Mich St.

SEC, on the other hand, added a really strong program in TX A&M ... yet another team in the West to beat each other up, and suppress records (except for Alabama).
03-21-2017 08:59 AM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
If they could both end up with auto bids than absolutely.

CUSA East splits and takes UAB and Ga St

CUSA East
Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, WKU, MTSU, FIU, FAU, Ga St, UAB

CUSA West takes NMSU, Texas St, Ark St. ULL

CUSA West
NMSU, UTEP, UTSA, Texas St, Rice, N Texas, La Tech, Ark St., ULL, USM

Sunbelt could cobble up the rest and have to find upgrades/independents
ULM, Troy, USA, Coastal, App, Ga Southern
(Liberty, EKU, Lamar, JMU, etc)
03-21-2017 01:38 PM
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CitrusUCF Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
My take is that CUSA and SBC should realign into geographically sensible conferences given the reality of their TV deal. Bringing in fans to see nearby teams and sell tickets and be with schools with whom there might be a shared history or at least sense of geographic connection seems most sensible.

CUSA (12 teams)
North
Marshall
Old Dominion
App State
Charlotte
Liberty (or UMass)
Western Kentucky

South
Coastal Carolina
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
FAU
FIU
Middle Tennessee

Sun Belt (14+2 teams)
West
New Mexico State
North Texas
Rice
UTSA
Texas State
UTEP
Arkansas State

East
Southern Mississippi
Louisiana Tech
Louisiana
Louisiana-Monroe
UAB
Troy
South Alabama

Non-Football
+UT-Arlington
+UALR

That evens out both conferences to have championship games. You can also play with moving the Alabama schools around, but I wanted to keep all in-state teams together.
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2017 01:48 PM by CitrusUCF.)
03-21-2017 01:44 PM
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Erictelevision Online
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Post: #99
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
Love it Citrus!!

Prefer Liberty to UMASS (no "island")
Is "Louisiana". ULL?
03-21-2017 02:03 PM
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Georgia_Power_Company Offline
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Post: #100
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-21-2017 01:44 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  My take is that CUSA and SBC should realign into geographically sensible conferences given the reality of their TV deal. Bringing in fans to see nearby teams and sell tickets and be with schools with whom there might be a shared history or at least sense of geographic connection seems most sensible.

CUSA (12 teams)
North
Marshall
Old Dominion
App State
Charlotte
Liberty (or UMass)
Western Kentucky

South
Coastal Carolina
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
FAU
FIU
Middle Tennessee

Sun Belt (14+2 teams)
West
New Mexico State
North Texas
Rice
UTSA
Texas State
UTEP
Arkansas State

East
Southern Mississippi
Louisiana Tech
Louisiana
Louisiana-Monroe
UAB
Troy
South Alabama

Non-Football
+UT-Arlington
+UALR

That evens out both conferences to have championship games. You can also play with moving the Alabama schools around, but I wanted to keep all in-state teams together.

In a perfect world moving teams around into two geographically friendly conferences makes a lot of sense but as has been pointed out several times throughout this thread some of these schools had rather not be associated with each other.

To top it off what's in this deal for the current Sun Belt teams? Per team revenue is already higher than that of the CUSA teams even with a smaller TV contract. Travel is great using the travel partner concept and their are enough teams close by to each school (except maybe Texas St in Football) to provide regional rivals. Texas St being the western outlier for football is helped a bit by the fact they seem be developing a budding rivalry with ULL so for the most part they are happy enough in the SBC. Idaho and NMSU leaving after this year will complete the SBC plan to tighten our footprint and focus on our core membership. Now that we finally have the SBC lined up the way our Presidents want it why should we blow it all up just to help a struggling CUSA?

It's got to make $$ or it don't make sense guys!
03-21-2017 02:06 PM
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