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Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 06:03 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 04:00 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 01:24 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Wait a second, I thought accounting and finance were different beasts?

Accounting, I think of a nerdy guy sitting at a desk with a calculator and a spreadsheet.

Finance, I think of Wall St guy in a suit, making huge money with inside information, then charging $1000 in sushi to the company expense card.

Uh, accounting IS finance. The Wall Street investment bank-type jobs that most people think of as "finance" constitute a tiny percentage of finance jobs. At the same time, financial trading firms actually want computer science and engineering grads more than business school grads today since programming is such a huge part of that field now. Otherwise, the vast majority of corporate finance jobs require a lot of accounting skills.

Let's put it this way: accounting is to finance as coding is to tech. There might be some tech jobs out there where you don't need coding skills and there might be some finance jobs out there where you don't need accounting skills, but those are few and far between. It's not an accident that even middle tier colleges still have generally good placement for accounting majors while they're all over the map for their other business majors. You can teach finance to virtually any major fairly easily (which is how those Ivy League liberal arts grads end up getting hired by Wall Street investment banks based on prestige), but accounting skills are pretty hard to learn on the job.

Source: I was a finance major at Illinois. Unless my kids get into an Ivy-level school (where your major doesn't matter), I'd highly recommend them to major in accounting if they want to be a business major in the future (or, even better, major in computer science or engineering and get an MBA later on). It didn't ultimately end up mattering in my personal situation since I went to law school, but accounting is definitely more useful for the vast majority of students (e.g. the people that aren't going to Harvard/Wharton/Stanford).

No. Accounting is one part of finance, but it's not the biggest part and it's not even the same type of accounting that accountants use. Financial accounting and non-financial accounting (i.e. accounting used by the IRS and accountants) are similar in the same way that criminal law is similar to contract law: they're in the same academic college, but training in one doesn't do anything to make you better in the other.

Accounting is backward looking. It looks at how to accurately record past transactions (i.e., audits) and is utilized to minimize taxes.

Finance is forward looking. It focuses on making smart future transactions.

There's three types of finance, and only one of them requires more than a passing understanding of non-financial accounting. Corporate finance looks at forecasting and at obtaining funds (i.e. relationships with bankers or large potential stockholders). Project finance looks at making smart investments in business assets. Investment finance (also called asset pricing) looks at making smart investments in financial assets (i.e. stocks and bonds, rather than buying a new office building or a new factory like they do in project finance).

To be a CFO, you can come from either background. But if you're a CFO who is a finance person you typically need a very strong accounting person as your number 2 (and vice-versa).

At the undergrad level, finance majors have the second best job placements outside of engineering or the hard sciences (physics, biology, chemistry). The first? Accounting. But there's a lot higher standard deviation in starting finance salaries than starting accounting salaries (i.e. top finance majors make more than top accounting majors, but bottom finance majors make a lot less than bottom accounting majors).

Source: I'm a finance professor (with a PhD), and in my past life I worked in a small enough company that we had to interact very closely with the accountants.

Oh, I agree with you. The forward-looking aspect is exactly why I majored in finance instead of accounting in undergrad. I also agree that the variance between different jobs for finance majors is high compared to accounting majors. My fellow finance majors at Illinois had a range of going to Goldman Sachs at the top end and selling insurance products at the low end - it was a HUGE range. In constrast, essentially every accounting major with a 3.0 that didn't come off as an axe-murderer in their interviews would get a Big Four job.

Believe me - I don't recommend accounting as a major out of personal preference. I loved majoring in finance and it was way more interesting to me compared to my accounting classes. It's just that finance is generally a "star system" where the sexy jobs go to those that got the very top grades at the top schools (many of which don't even offer a finance major, so they're often economics majors). If you're going to Wharton or Michigan Ross, then yeah, you're set up well to go into finance. Top Wall Street firms will go deep into the classes of those very elite programs. It's just that it quickly dissipates when you get to the next tier of schools. Goldman Sachs might take a handful of kids from the entire University of Illinois or University of Wisconsin on that next tier, and then simply ignore everyone else entirely in the tiers below those types of schools. However, from what I've seen from working in various industries (ranging from a Big Four stint to a start-up tech firm to a Global Fortune 100 company), you'll get a fairly good job if you're simply competent in accounting. Finance is great if you're a true academic star, whereas anyone that majors in accounting has a pretty high floor if they work hard. (Accounting isn't necessarily hard from an intellectual or mathematical perspective, but it's definitely a lot of work.)
03-18-2017 01:18 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 08:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:49 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. No. I'm assuming that a 1-2 year program is shorter than a 3-5 year program. Therefore a 100 person undergrad program that lasts 3-5 years will produce fewer grads than a 100 person grad program that lasts 1-2 years.

2. False. That would be the Ivy League.

Like I said. The B1G is big.

The article does a top down analysis, which is correct.

You're doing a bottom up analysis, which is false and a straw man.


You have to start at the top, because there are only a really few people with the potential to be CFO's.

Statistics disagrees.

The article is worthless because of the glaring flaw that I pointed out.

Do you honestly think that the average Big Ten school better prepares finance professionals than the average Ivy school? If your answer is yes, then I think you're clearly blinded by a bias. If your answer is no, then I'm right.

As it stands right now, the article pretty much just proves the B1G is big.

Yes, the Big Ten has big undergraduate programs, so the sheer numbers aren't comparable to the smaller Ivy League programs. However, it's not a fair characterization that this is just a matter of "quantity over quality". No one is saying that going to a Big Ten school for undergrad is the same as going to an Ivy League school or that the numbers are similar. However, much of the ACC, Pac-12, SEC and Big 12 *do* have undergraduate programs that are similar in size to the Big Ten, so the fact that the B1G has substantially more CFOs than those conferences is an interesting data point. The SEC has essentially the same mix of schools (13 large public universities and 1 private universities), but the Big Ten has well over twice as many CEOs, so that shows that it's not merely just quantity. It's also not just quantity for why Illinois and Indiana are up there with Penn and Notre Dame in terms of CFO numbers - they're perennially ranked in the top 5 accounting programs in the country. (Illinois and Texas generally fight for the #1 and #2 spots in the US News accounting rankings every year.)

Separately, the surprising one for me is how high the Big East is on the list. Georgetown and, to a lesser extent, Villanova have well-ranked undergrad business programs, but the fact that the league has more CFOs than the SEC and Big 12 while having nearly as many as the Pac-12 (and 11 of their 38 came from Stanford) when their enrollments are much smaller is definitely interesting.

Undergrad is just part of the equation. Look at total graduates per year w/ a bias towards grads (some finance jobs require a graduate degree for advancement), and you'll have a more complete picture.

The B1G is big ... really, really big.

If the claim was that the B1G is huge and better than the SEC, the closest comp in terms of size, then I'd agree. But the thread title claimed that the B1G was the best. That claim isn't true.
03-18-2017 07:02 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-18-2017 07:02 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 08:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:49 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. No. I'm assuming that a 1-2 year program is shorter than a 3-5 year program. Therefore a 100 person undergrad program that lasts 3-5 years will produce fewer grads than a 100 person grad program that lasts 1-2 years.

2. False. That would be the Ivy League.

Like I said. The B1G is big.

The article does a top down analysis, which is correct.

You're doing a bottom up analysis, which is false and a straw man.


You have to start at the top, because there are only a really few people with the potential to be CFO's.

Statistics disagrees.

The article is worthless because of the glaring flaw that I pointed out.

Do you honestly think that the average Big Ten school better prepares finance professionals than the average Ivy school? If your answer is yes, then I think you're clearly blinded by a bias. If your answer is no, then I'm right.

As it stands right now, the article pretty much just proves the B1G is big.

Yes, the Big Ten has big undergraduate programs, so the sheer numbers aren't comparable to the smaller Ivy League programs. However, it's not a fair characterization that this is just a matter of "quantity over quality". No one is saying that going to a Big Ten school for undergrad is the same as going to an Ivy League school or that the numbers are similar. However, much of the ACC, Pac-12, SEC and Big 12 *do* have undergraduate programs that are similar in size to the Big Ten, so the fact that the B1G has substantially more CFOs than those conferences is an interesting data point. The SEC has essentially the same mix of schools (13 large public universities and 1 private universities), but the Big Ten has well over twice as many CEOs, so that shows that it's not merely just quantity. It's also not just quantity for why Illinois and Indiana are up there with Penn and Notre Dame in terms of CFO numbers - they're perennially ranked in the top 5 accounting programs in the country. (Illinois and Texas generally fight for the #1 and #2 spots in the US News accounting rankings every year.)

Separately, the surprising one for me is how high the Big East is on the list. Georgetown and, to a lesser extent, Villanova have well-ranked undergrad business programs, but the fact that the league has more CFOs than the SEC and Big 12 while having nearly as many as the Pac-12 (and 11 of their 38 came from Stanford) when their enrollments are much smaller is definitely interesting.

Undergrad is just part of the equation. Look at total graduates per year w/ a bias towards grads (some finance jobs require a graduate degree for advancement), and you'll have a more complete picture.

The B1G is big ... really, really big.

If the claim was that the B1G is huge and better than the SEC, the closest comp in terms of size, then I'd agree. But the thread title claimed that the B1G was the best. That claim isn't true.

But this specific study is only looking at where CFOs went to undergrad. They're not counting MBA grads or other advanced degrees. If they were including advanced degrees, the Big Ten would probably be even farther ahead just by being able to count Kellogg at Northwestern (which has an insanely high number of C-suite alums from their MBA program).

Regardless, I'm actually surprised that the Big Ten is that far ahead in terms of numbers. You're correct that it's not the same as comparing them to the Ivy League on a per capita basis, but you seem to be discounting it entirely to size when being that far ahead of all of the other P5 conferences (not just the SEC) doesn't show just randomness and sheer quantity. The Big Ten undergrad business programs are generally all very good. As I've stated, Illinois and Indiana are virtually always in the top 5 in the nation for accounting (and that's reflected in them being top 5 CFO schools) and all of the undergrad Big Ten business programs besides Nebraska are perennially in the top 25 of the US News rankings for that area (which doesn't even include the best academic school in the Big Ten of Northwestern since they don't have an undergrad business program). That's not all random as compared to the ACC, SEC, Pac-12 and Big 12. (I'm not talking about the Ivy League.)
03-18-2017 09:01 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
Also, even though this is really separate from the OP article that is solely about undergrad institutions, one thing to note is that grad programs in the Big Ten actually aren't necessarily larger than their private school counterparts. Look at the latest list of the top 25 US News MBA programs released earlier this week that shows enrollment sizes. Harvard and Wharton are by far the largest in sheer size and Indiana's MBA enrollment is actually smaller than any Ivy League MBA program. The largest MBA program in the Big Ten itself is private school Northwestern, which has a fraction of the undergrad students as the public school members:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sch...int=9dc208

Harvard actually has a higher post-grad enrollment (across all grad programs in all fields) than places like Illinois and Wisconsin. The size difference is really all at the undergrad level.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2017 09:31 AM by Frank the Tank.)
03-18-2017 09:30 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-18-2017 09:01 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-18-2017 07:02 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 08:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:49 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The article does a top down analysis, which is correct.

You're doing a bottom up analysis, which is false and a straw man.


You have to start at the top, because there are only a really few people with the potential to be CFO's.

Statistics disagrees.

The article is worthless because of the glaring flaw that I pointed out.

Do you honestly think that the average Big Ten school better prepares finance professionals than the average Ivy school? If your answer is yes, then I think you're clearly blinded by a bias. If your answer is no, then I'm right.

As it stands right now, the article pretty much just proves the B1G is big.

Yes, the Big Ten has big undergraduate programs, so the sheer numbers aren't comparable to the smaller Ivy League programs. However, it's not a fair characterization that this is just a matter of "quantity over quality". No one is saying that going to a Big Ten school for undergrad is the same as going to an Ivy League school or that the numbers are similar. However, much of the ACC, Pac-12, SEC and Big 12 *do* have undergraduate programs that are similar in size to the Big Ten, so the fact that the B1G has substantially more CFOs than those conferences is an interesting data point. The SEC has essentially the same mix of schools (13 large public universities and 1 private universities), but the Big Ten has well over twice as many CEOs, so that shows that it's not merely just quantity. It's also not just quantity for why Illinois and Indiana are up there with Penn and Notre Dame in terms of CFO numbers - they're perennially ranked in the top 5 accounting programs in the country. (Illinois and Texas generally fight for the #1 and #2 spots in the US News accounting rankings every year.)

Separately, the surprising one for me is how high the Big East is on the list. Georgetown and, to a lesser extent, Villanova have well-ranked undergrad business programs, but the fact that the league has more CFOs than the SEC and Big 12 while having nearly as many as the Pac-12 (and 11 of their 38 came from Stanford) when their enrollments are much smaller is definitely interesting.

Undergrad is just part of the equation. Look at total graduates per year w/ a bias towards grads (some finance jobs require a graduate degree for advancement), and you'll have a more complete picture.

The B1G is big ... really, really big.

If the claim was that the B1G is huge and better than the SEC, the closest comp in terms of size, then I'd agree. But the thread title claimed that the B1G was the best. That claim isn't true.

But this specific study is only looking at where CFOs went to undergrad. They're not counting MBA grads or other advanced degrees. If they were including advanced degrees, the Big Ten would probably be even farther ahead just by being able to count Kellogg at Northwestern (which has an insanely high number of C-suite alums from their MBA program).

Regardless, I'm actually surprised that the Big Ten is that far ahead in terms of numbers. You're correct that it's not the same as comparing them to the Ivy League on a per capita basis, but you seem to be discounting it entirely to size when being that far ahead of all of the other P5 conferences (not just the SEC) doesn't show just randomness and sheer quantity. The Big Ten undergrad business programs are generally all very good. As I've stated, Illinois and Indiana are virtually always in the top 5 in the nation for accounting (and that's reflected in them being top 5 CFO schools) and all of the undergrad Big Ten business programs besides Nebraska are perennially in the top 25 of the US News rankings for that area (which doesn't even include the best academic school in the Big Ten of Northwestern since they don't have an undergrad business program). That's not all random as compared to the ACC, SEC, Pac-12 and Big 12. (I'm not talking about the Ivy League.)

14/15 - B10 conference size
14 - SEC size (+0%/-7%)
14/15 - ACC (+0%/+0%)
12 - PAC (-14%/-20%)
10 - BXII (-29%/-33%)

**I don't know how they handled ND and JHU**

Context:
Wake Forest has 4,800 total undergrads, BC has 9,000 total undergrads and ND has 8,500 total undergrads; Illinois' business school has 2,800-3,000 undergrads (depending on the source), Smeal (PSU main campus) has 5,000 undergrads (as per their website), plus an untold number on the branch campuses that may or may not have been included. This is just a guess, but I'd bet that Michigan and Ohio State are even bigger than PSU.

Yes, there are substantially more B1G alumni than any other conference. Individual B1G colleges are the comparable to entire ACC universities, and, SEC aside, all of the other major conferences are smaller in terms of the number of schools and school sizes. The B1G isn't bad, but size is dramatically distorting these statistics.
03-18-2017 11:55 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-18-2017 09:30 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Also, even though this is really separate from the OP article that is solely about undergrad institutions, one thing to note is that grad programs in the Big Ten actually aren't necessarily larger than their private school counterparts. Look at the latest list of the top 25 US News MBA programs released earlier this week that shows enrollment sizes. Harvard and Wharton are by far the largest in sheer size and Indiana's MBA enrollment is actually smaller than any Ivy League MBA program. The largest MBA program in the Big Ten itself is private school Northwestern, which has a fraction of the undergrad students as the public school members:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sch...int=9dc208

Harvard actually has a higher post-grad enrollment (across all grad programs in all fields) than places like Illinois and Wisconsin. The size difference is really all at the undergrad level.

Ivy grad schools are usually massive - especially Harvard.
03-18-2017 11:59 AM
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MplsBison Online
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Post: #37
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
Look, he has grasped onto a point, that seems to simultaneously apologize for the performance of other conferences while dragging down the highest performer (the Big Ten).

Of course, the point is completely tangential and superficial, and he hasn't established that it has any validity.

But he's not going to give it up, because it's not possible to disprove that it has validity in some context.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2017 12:06 PM by MplsBison.)
03-18-2017 12:02 PM
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MplsBison Online
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Post: #38
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 06:49 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  Statistics disagrees.

Not if you're comparing apples to watermelons!

You're trying to present a watermelon as an apple.


(03-17-2017 06:54 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  the Big XII <or honestly, instert pretty much any large conference here> has stronger academics than Harvard because the Big XII conference produces more <insert top level people here> than Harvard.

Critical flaw exposed:

that Harvard, Wake Forest, etc don't have the most CFO's, does not prove that those schools have inferior academics.


You're trying to start from an assumption, that Harvard has the best academics, and then build an argument that points to that assumption.

The entirely wrong way to make a logical argument!
03-18-2017 12:05 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 10:36 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 08:58 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 08:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:49 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The article does a top down analysis, which is correct.

You're doing a bottom up analysis, which is false and a straw man.


You have to start at the top, because there are only a really few people with the potential to be CFO's.

Statistics disagrees.

The article is worthless because of the glaring flaw that I pointed out.

Do you honestly think that the average Big Ten school better prepares finance professionals than the average Ivy school? If your answer is yes, then I think you're clearly blinded by a bias. If your answer is no, then I'm right.

As it stands right now, the article pretty much just proves the B1G is big.

Yes, the Big Ten has big undergraduate programs, so the sheer numbers aren't comparable to the smaller Ivy League programs. However, it's not a fair characterization that this is just a matter of "quantity over quality". No one is saying that going to a Big Ten school for undergrad is the same as going to an Ivy League school or that the numbers are similar. However, much of the ACC, Pac-12, SEC and Big 12 *do* have undergraduate programs that are similar in size to the Big Ten, so the fact that the B1G has substantially more CFOs than those conferences is an interesting data point. The SEC has essentially the same mix of schools (13 large public universities and 1 private universities), but the Big Ten has well over twice as many CEOs, so that shows that it's not merely just quantity. It's also not just quantity for why Illinois and Indiana are up there with Penn and Notre Dame in terms of CFO numbers - they're perennially ranked in the top 5 accounting programs in the country. (Illinois and Texas generally fight for the #1 and #2 spots in the US News accounting rankings every year.)

Separately, the surprising one for me is how high the Big East is on the list. Georgetown and, to a lesser extent, Villanova have well-ranked undergrad business programs, but the fact that the league has more CFOs than the SEC and Big 12 while having nearly as many as the Pac-12 (and 11 of their 38 came from Stanford) when their enrollments are much smaller is definitely interesting.

Illinois has more CFO's than Rice. I'd rather have a degree from Rice.
Cheers!

What does that have to do with anything? Illinois has more CFOs than East Carolina. I'd rather have a degree from Illinois (which I actually have).
Cheers!

What does this thread have to with sports? I'd rather a Masters Degree from Oklahoma than any kind of degree from Illinois (which I actually have) using money I got from the Army (which I actually served in)
Cheers!
P.S. I'm proud of my Degree from ECU.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2017 12:44 PM by billybobby777.)
03-18-2017 12:36 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
If you want to be a CFO, then you should want a degree from Illinois over Rice, Oklahoma, or ECU! 07-coffee3
03-18-2017 12:57 PM
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