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Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 07:59 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 07:49 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 05:15 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  This ignores class sizes. Large schools that skew towards grad degrees (i.e. MBA programs) have a huge edge when looking at raw numbers.

The more students a school has, the more grads in any capacity it can expect to have moving forward. That's especially true for masters level business courses that are 1-2 years vs ~4 years for bachelor programs. Also, masters-level business degrees are required to move up in some industries, like finance, which creates a second bias.

The B1G consists of huge schools w/ more of an emphasis on masters programs than the schools in most other conferences.

Calling it the biggest is probably a more accurate title.

You are right. There is nothing in either the excerpt quoted here or in the original article linked that makes any kind of value judgment about quality of these programs. All it does is count how many CFO's went to schools that happen to be linked together in an athletic conference. It doesn't even normalize for differences in the number of schools per conference.

The article is useless as a tool for anything except stirring the passions of sports fans and providing them with fodder for bragging about their favorite conference.

Its an interesting article on the people at the top from various schools. Clearly, the B1G produces a lot of CFOs for big companies.

Almost all the schools have very good MBA programs. And for whatever reason, there are a lot of strong accounting programs in the Midwest. Even some of the MAC schools have highly ranked accounting programs, Miami, Northern Illinois, Central Michigan.

"Even some of the MAC schools have highly ranked...." WHY? its surprising to you that a "non-P5" university rates well at a certain academic metric? Sports and academics are two seperate things. This topic is funny to me as I've been saying for years that college football fans were going to one day think the money they get from espn to show football games is going to buy them into Ivy League status. Maybe a degree from Alabama will be better than one from Yale someday since Alabama is a "P5" in sports and Yale is only a mid major. Bawhahaha

Cheers!
03-17-2017 08:12 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 08:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 07:59 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 07:49 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 05:15 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  This ignores class sizes. Large schools that skew towards grad degrees (i.e. MBA programs) have a huge edge when looking at raw numbers.

The more students a school has, the more grads in any capacity it can expect to have moving forward. That's especially true for masters level business courses that are 1-2 years vs ~4 years for bachelor programs. Also, masters-level business degrees are required to move up in some industries, like finance, which creates a second bias.

The B1G consists of huge schools w/ more of an emphasis on masters programs than the schools in most other conferences.

Calling it the biggest is probably a more accurate title.

You are right. There is nothing in either the excerpt quoted here or in the original article linked that makes any kind of value judgment about quality of these programs. All it does is count how many CFO's went to schools that happen to be linked together in an athletic conference. It doesn't even normalize for differences in the number of schools per conference.

The article is useless as a tool for anything except stirring the passions of sports fans and providing them with fodder for bragging about their favorite conference.

Its an interesting article on the people at the top from various schools. Clearly, the B1G produces a lot of CFOs for big companies.

Almost all the schools have very good MBA programs. And for whatever reason, there are a lot of strong accounting programs in the Midwest. Even some of the MAC schools have highly ranked accounting programs, Miami, Northern Illinois, Central Michigan.

"Even some of the MAC schools have highly ranked...." WHY? its surprising to you that a "non-P5" university rates well at a certain academic metric? Sports and academics are two seperate things. This topic is funny to me as I've been saying for years that college football fans were going to one day think the money they get from espn to show football games is going to buy them into Ivy League status. Maybe a degree from Alabama will be better than one from Yale someday since Alabama is a "P5" in sports and Yale is only a mid major. Bawhahaha

Cheers!

Other than Miami (undergraduate) and Buffalo, the MAC schools aren't anywhere nearly as highly regarded overall on an undergraduate or graduate level as the Big 10 schools. But a number have top accounting departments.
03-17-2017 08:16 PM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #23
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 06:49 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. No. I'm assuming that a 1-2 year program is shorter than a 3-5 year program. Therefore a 100 person undergrad program that lasts 3-5 years will produce fewer grads than a 100 person grad program that lasts 1-2 years.

2. False. That would be the Ivy League.

Like I said. The B1G is big.

The article does a top down analysis, which is correct.

You're doing a bottom up analysis, which is false and a straw man.


You have to start at the top, because there are only a really few people with the potential to be CFO's.

Statistics disagrees.

The article is worthless because of the glaring flaw that I pointed out.

Do you honestly think that the average Big Ten school better prepares finance professionals than the average Ivy school? If your answer is yes, then I think you're clearly blinded by a bias. If your answer is no, then I'm right.

As it stands right now, the article pretty much just proves the B1G is big.

Yes, the Big Ten has big undergraduate programs, so the sheer numbers aren't comparable to the smaller Ivy League programs. However, it's not a fair characterization that this is just a matter of "quantity over quality". No one is saying that going to a Big Ten school for undergrad is the same as going to an Ivy League school or that the numbers are similar. However, much of the ACC, Pac-12, SEC and Big 12 *do* have undergraduate programs that are similar in size to the Big Ten, so the fact that the B1G has substantially more CFOs than those conferences is an interesting data point. The SEC has essentially the same mix of schools (13 large public universities and 1 private universities), but the Big Ten has well over twice as many CEOs, so that shows that it's not merely just quantity. It's also not just quantity for why Illinois and Indiana are up there with Penn and Notre Dame in terms of CFO numbers - they're perennially ranked in the top 5 accounting programs in the country. (Illinois and Texas generally fight for the #1 and #2 spots in the US News accounting rankings every year.)

Separately, the surprising one for me is how high the Big East is on the list. Georgetown and, to a lesser extent, Villanova have well-ranked undergrad business programs, but the fact that the league has more CFOs than the SEC and Big 12 while having nearly as many as the Pac-12 (and 11 of their 38 came from Stanford) when their enrollments are much smaller is definitely interesting.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2017 08:51 PM by Frank the Tank.)
03-17-2017 08:49 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 08:16 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 08:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 07:59 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 07:49 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 05:15 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  This ignores class sizes. Large schools that skew towards grad degrees (i.e. MBA programs) have a huge edge when looking at raw numbers.

The more students a school has, the more grads in any capacity it can expect to have moving forward. That's especially true for masters level business courses that are 1-2 years vs ~4 years for bachelor programs. Also, masters-level business degrees are required to move up in some industries, like finance, which creates a second bias.

The B1G consists of huge schools w/ more of an emphasis on masters programs than the schools in most other conferences.

Calling it the biggest is probably a more accurate title.

You are right. There is nothing in either the excerpt quoted here or in the original article linked that makes any kind of value judgment about quality of these programs. All it does is count how many CFO's went to schools that happen to be linked together in an athletic conference. It doesn't even normalize for differences in the number of schools per conference.

The article is useless as a tool for anything except stirring the passions of sports fans and providing them with fodder for bragging about their favorite conference.

Its an interesting article on the people at the top from various schools. Clearly, the B1G produces a lot of CFOs for big companies.

Almost all the schools have very good MBA programs. And for whatever reason, there are a lot of strong accounting programs in the Midwest. Even some of the MAC schools have highly ranked accounting programs, Miami, Northern Illinois, Central Michigan.

"Even some of the MAC schools have highly ranked...." WHY? its surprising to you that a "non-P5" university rates well at a certain academic metric? Sports and academics are two seperate things. This topic is funny to me as I've been saying for years that college football fans were going to one day think the money they get from espn to show football games is going to buy them into Ivy League status. Maybe a degree from Alabama will be better than one from Yale someday since Alabama is a "P5" in sports and Yale is only a mid major. Bawhahaha

Cheers!

Other than Miami (undergraduate) and Buffalo, the MAC schools aren't anywhere nearly as highly regarded overall on an undergraduate or graduate level as the Big 10 schools. But a number have top accounting departments.

I'll always love the University of Iowa for saving my sisters life and forgiving the massive medical debt my family owed them. She spent most of her first 2 years living there. The U of Iowa hospital is wonderful. But like this thread, that has nothing to do with athletics.
Cheers!
03-17-2017 08:54 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 08:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:49 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. No. I'm assuming that a 1-2 year program is shorter than a 3-5 year program. Therefore a 100 person undergrad program that lasts 3-5 years will produce fewer grads than a 100 person grad program that lasts 1-2 years.

2. False. That would be the Ivy League.

Like I said. The B1G is big.

The article does a top down analysis, which is correct.

You're doing a bottom up analysis, which is false and a straw man.


You have to start at the top, because there are only a really few people with the potential to be CFO's.

Statistics disagrees.

The article is worthless because of the glaring flaw that I pointed out.

Do you honestly think that the average Big Ten school better prepares finance professionals than the average Ivy school? If your answer is yes, then I think you're clearly blinded by a bias. If your answer is no, then I'm right.

As it stands right now, the article pretty much just proves the B1G is big.

Yes, the Big Ten has big undergraduate programs, so the sheer numbers aren't comparable to the smaller Ivy League programs. However, it's not a fair characterization that this is just a matter of "quantity over quality". No one is saying that going to a Big Ten school for undergrad is the same as going to an Ivy League school or that the numbers are similar. However, much of the ACC, Pac-12, SEC and Big 12 *do* have undergraduate programs that are similar in size to the Big Ten, so the fact that the B1G has substantially more CFOs than those conferences is an interesting data point. The SEC has essentially the same mix of schools (13 large public universities and 1 private universities), but the Big Ten has well over twice as many CEOs, so that shows that it's not merely just quantity. It's also not just quantity for why Illinois and Indiana are up there with Penn and Notre Dame in terms of CFO numbers - they're perennially ranked in the top 5 accounting programs in the country. (Illinois and Texas generally fight for the #1 and #2 spots in the US News accounting rankings every year.)

Separately, the surprising one for me is how high the Big East is on the list. Georgetown and, to a lesser extent, Villanova have well-ranked undergrad business programs, but the fact that the league has more CFOs than the SEC and Big 12 while having nearly as many as the Pac-12 (and 11 of their 38 came from Stanford) when their enrollments are much smaller is definitely interesting.

Illinois has more CFO's than Rice. I'd rather have a degree from Rice.
Cheers!
03-17-2017 08:58 PM
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Post: #26
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
Now, the one thing that probably helps the numbers of the Big Ten is that even the lowest-ranked schools still have good or even great undergrad business programs (e.g. Indiana is usually one of the lower-ranked overall undergrad schools in the Big Ten, but its undergrad business school is considered to be #2 in the conference after Michigan and among the top 10 in the country). Note that these are solely undergrad numbers, so they're not even including Northwestern's Kellogg School of Business (which doesn't have an undergrad program but churns out as many C-suite executives as anyone in the Ivy League at the MBA level). So, sure, there's a quantity aspect there, but it's also that there's a critical mass of good-to-great undergrad business programs from top-to-bottom in the conference that you don't see in the other P5 leagues. The ACC comes the closest in terms of top-to-bottom depth - the top of the ACC is arguably better than the Big Ten academically, but the bottom half isn't as strong.
03-17-2017 09:00 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 09:00 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Now, the one thing that probably helps the numbers of the Big Ten is that even the lowest-ranked schools still have good or even great undergrad business programs (e.g. Indiana is usually one of the lower-ranked overall undergrad schools in the Big Ten, but its undergrad business school is considered to be #2 in the conference after Michigan and among the top 10 in the country). Note that these are solely undergrad numbers, so they're not even including Northwestern's Kellogg School of Business (which doesn't have an undergrad program but churns out as many C-suite executives as anyone in the Ivy League at the MBA level). So, sure, there's a quantity aspect there, but it's also that there's a critical mass of good-to-great undergrad business programs from top-to-bottom in the conference that you don't see in the other P5 leagues. The ACC comes the closest in terms of top-to-bottom depth - the top of the ACC is arguably better than the Big Ten academically, but the bottom half isn't as strong.

Do you have the stats on Big 10 athletes in CEO/CFO positions compared to Ivy League athletes?
Cheers!
03-17-2017 09:07 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
The Big 10 should stop going after 5 star athletes who wouldn't get in without the fact their needed to play football. The SEC used to get mocked for doing that, and rightfully so. Now the Big 10 is doing it. Stanford, Rice, Army, Navy and Air Force don't take in players who don't make the grade. The Ivy's don't even offer athletic scholarships. I hope you argue with me Frank. I've got a lot of great examples.--not just stories about guys who played at Nebraska and Rutgers either.
Cheers!
03-17-2017 09:27 PM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #29
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 08:58 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 08:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:49 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-17-2017 06:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. No. I'm assuming that a 1-2 year program is shorter than a 3-5 year program. Therefore a 100 person undergrad program that lasts 3-5 years will produce fewer grads than a 100 person grad program that lasts 1-2 years.

2. False. That would be the Ivy League.

Like I said. The B1G is big.

The article does a top down analysis, which is correct.

You're doing a bottom up analysis, which is false and a straw man.


You have to start at the top, because there are only a really few people with the potential to be CFO's.

Statistics disagrees.

The article is worthless because of the glaring flaw that I pointed out.

Do you honestly think that the average Big Ten school better prepares finance professionals than the average Ivy school? If your answer is yes, then I think you're clearly blinded by a bias. If your answer is no, then I'm right.

As it stands right now, the article pretty much just proves the B1G is big.

Yes, the Big Ten has big undergraduate programs, so the sheer numbers aren't comparable to the smaller Ivy League programs. However, it's not a fair characterization that this is just a matter of "quantity over quality". No one is saying that going to a Big Ten school for undergrad is the same as going to an Ivy League school or that the numbers are similar. However, much of the ACC, Pac-12, SEC and Big 12 *do* have undergraduate programs that are similar in size to the Big Ten, so the fact that the B1G has substantially more CFOs than those conferences is an interesting data point. The SEC has essentially the same mix of schools (13 large public universities and 1 private universities), but the Big Ten has well over twice as many CEOs, so that shows that it's not merely just quantity. It's also not just quantity for why Illinois and Indiana are up there with Penn and Notre Dame in terms of CFO numbers - they're perennially ranked in the top 5 accounting programs in the country. (Illinois and Texas generally fight for the #1 and #2 spots in the US News accounting rankings every year.)

Separately, the surprising one for me is how high the Big East is on the list. Georgetown and, to a lesser extent, Villanova have well-ranked undergrad business programs, but the fact that the league has more CFOs than the SEC and Big 12 while having nearly as many as the Pac-12 (and 11 of their 38 came from Stanford) when their enrollments are much smaller is definitely interesting.

Illinois has more CFO's than Rice. I'd rather have a degree from Rice.
Cheers!

What does that have to do with anything? Illinois has more CFOs than East Carolina. I'd rather have a degree from Illinois (which I actually have).
Cheers!
03-17-2017 10:36 PM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #30
RE: Best conference-Big 10 according to JofA
(03-17-2017 09:27 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  The Big 10 should stop going after 5 star athletes who wouldn't get in without the fact their needed to play football. The SEC used to get mocked for doing that, and rightfully so. Now the Big 10 is doing it. Stanford, Rice, Army, Navy and Air Force don't take in players who don't make the grade. The Ivy's don't even offer athletic scholarships. I hope you argue with me Frank. I've got a lot of great examples.--not just stories about guys who played at Nebraska and Rutgers either.
Cheers!

What do I need to argue with you about? I'm as outspoken as anyone about the complete hypocrisy of college sports. It's just that as opposed to suggesting that it get shut down like some people have argued on this board (miko33 comes to mind), I believe that colleges need to drop the veneer of amateurism with their football and basketball programs and start paying players their market value (which, as shown by how many under-the-table gifts get passed from third party boosters, is often much more than the value of a scholarship). Let the free market and money flow in college sports.

I know full well that many of the athletes that get into places like Michigan wouldn't be able to get in as a "regular" student. However, you should also know full well that this doesn't impact Michigan's overall academic reputation, either. Heck, your in-state competition of UNC effectively had a full-blown shadow curriculum and grading system for athletes, but that hasn't dissuaded the school from receiving yet another record number of "regular" applicants this past year and the acceptance rate there is as competitive as ever. Prestigious Wall Street and Silicon Valley firms are still going to line up to hire people from places like Michigan and UNC that they don't from 99% of the other schools in the nation regardless of the loose academic standards for athletes.

Is it right? Well, that's simply a matter of opinion. My opinion is that pretending that football and basketball players are regular students has always been ridiculous (and more importantly, that false pretense is the crutch upon which colleges use to not pay such players their full value in the marketplace).
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2017 10:58 PM by Frank the Tank.)
03-17-2017 10:53 PM
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