Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
Author Message
The Cutter of Bish Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,597
Joined: Mar 2013
Reputation: 57
I Root For: the little guy
Location:
Post: #51
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
(03-15-2017 05:05 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Well I'm glad that guy is out of there then. Sounds like they have a lot of improving to do.

I'm not sure stuff like this is any step toward the right direction, though. They did this in the face of sagging enrollment across their Philly area campuses as a means to bring people back to that campus. This should have happened back in the 90's at a couple of the area campuses (they should have invested more in Abington...that campus is a gem because it used to be a small private college before PSU bought it); it's out of place today.

One of the other things Spanier did was make getting into University Park more difficult. Almost all of those satellite campuses were 2-2 feeders into Main Campus at one time, with flexibility to move up with the right academic credentials. While, yes, there was a demand for an experience away from UPark, most folks wanted that chance to be at that campus. An incentive through hard work, and why you applied for Penn State. Well, when the campuses started picking up additional programs in their entirety, or expanded their course offerings, now you were cut off from Main Campus. For most at least two years. Regardless of academic success. And, some of the programs, PSU started shutting down access to transfers or students with more than a year or two of experience. So, the school at the Main Campus was cut off, and an alternative was offered at the branch campus. "You can't get into <program>, but it's available here." It was such a shell game.

I had an interview at PSU Brandywine some years back, and I asked what the biggest challenge was with the student body there (this was with their Student Affairs office), and it was that they had students there that wanted to be at Main Campus but weren't chosen or could get in. It doesn't sound like the system is going to go back to get students back through that campus after a few years...I think that's a mistake if there ever was one.
(This post was last modified: 03-16-2017 08:45 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
03-16-2017 08:39 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
westwolf Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 654
Joined: Apr 2010
Reputation: 8
I Root For: CFB
Location:
Post: #52
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
Buggery capital of the world
03-16-2017 08:49 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TerryD Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 10,799
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 465
I Root For: Notre Dame
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Post: #53
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
(03-15-2017 05:05 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:05 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I think that's the point that the people arguing against you are trying to make.

No, they're trying to justify punishing a building because of an action of a person who sat in the building.

It's the people that matter, so you punish the person. You don't punish a desk, or a lamp.


(03-14-2017 05:37 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  SMU was given the death penalty due to the actions of individuals leading and involved with the football program.

That punishment was false then, as it would be false to apply the death penalty now for any situation where only a collection of individuals committed crimes -- IMO.

(03-14-2017 05:37 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Until the NCAA comes down hard on institutions for these outrageous scandals, they will continue to make the news every few years.

The implication is that a school can mind-control all people affiliated with it. Patently false.

A much better deterrent, and actually appropriate, would be to make a law saying that administrators of a public institution (like a university) that cover up crimes made by those affiliated with the institution face X years in prison, etc.


(03-15-2017 07:48 AM)TerryD Wrote:  The actions of "individuals in the university's administration and executive leadership positions" equals: The actions of "the school".

Therefore, you punish all, the individuals and the school.

As false and wrong of a statement as can ever be said, with regards to this topic.

Correct statement: the actions of individuals affiliated with a school are only the actions of individuals, therefore you cannot rightly punish the school.


(03-15-2017 01:28 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  The tuition doubled between 2000/1 and 2008/9, and it wasn't like the satellite campuses offered much of a discount. The branch campuses are the biggest scam...they are such second class citizens in the structure in virtually every way. I've heard UPark students are funded by the branch campus students to keep costs in check. It's a bad thing if true.

I remember visiting my brother at the Altoona campus in the early to mid 90's. The system was in the midst of expanding from a 2-2 campus to a select four-year program school. Of course, the campus didn't get classrooms to pick up the enrollment increase, and so, they rented trailers. A decade later, a group of us went out to Hollidaysburg and stopped by the Altoona campus. Wouldn't you know, the trailers were still there.

A lot can happen in a decade. You could literally see that at University Park. At its next biggest campus? Same as it ever was. And Altoona wasn't a bad campus in terms of instruction. The proximity between UPark and it meant instructors crossed between the two. Other campuses weren't so esteemed. But, it was still an eyesore, though. The only thing that grew to meet the demand was off-campus housing: in other words, Penn State took on more full-time students for tuition, but didn't provide the matching housing and related services. It took more heads without spending to keep them there.

Well I'm glad that guy is out of there then. Sounds like they have a lot of improving to do.

No, that would be every word that you have ever typed on this subject.
03-16-2017 10:24 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
MplsBison Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 16,511
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 181
I Root For: NDSU/Minnesota
Location:
Post: #54
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
(03-15-2017 07:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  Bison just wants the actual offenders, the 3 stooges, to be punished.

Correct.

But the fact is simply that there are probably a decent number of people who still harbor a great deal of hatred towards some combination of Joe Paterno, Penn St U, and the residents of central Pennsylvania ... and that was from before the Sandusky thing ever came to light.

Therefore, they want(ed) to use the Sandusky scandal as a convenient circumstance to punish and even cripple Penn St itself with extraneous, unfair penalties and sanctions.


That's the real reason you see folks like TerryD and CrazyPaco fight so hard against anyone who dares to defend the school itself, even if the person advocated for charging and punishing the actual people who committed the crimes (like I do).


(03-16-2017 08:39 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I'm not sure stuff like this is any step toward the right direction, though.

...

I had an interview at PSU Brandywine some years back, and I asked what the biggest challenge was with the student body there (this was with their Student Affairs office), and it was that they had students there that wanted to be at Main Campus but weren't chosen or could get in. It doesn't sound like the system is going to go back to get students back through that campus after a few years...I think that's a mistake if there ever was one.

PSU Brandywine looks like a small community college, from Google maps view. So I'm not sure what your complaint is about that campus?

Anyhow, all I can comment on is the Univ of Minnesota system. It has two what I would call "extraneous" campuses, in far flung regions from the Twin Cities. Neither should be in the U system, they both should be in the MnSCU system or go private.
(This post was last modified: 03-16-2017 11:02 AM by MplsBison.)
03-16-2017 10:51 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,667
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 393
I Root For: Common Sense
Location: Nunnayadamnbusiness
Post: #55
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
(03-13-2017 04:19 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Beyond question, shoplifting a magazine is not equivalent to sexually assaulting children.

It appeared, from his previous post, that he thought shutting down the sport or AD was an appropriate response to any crime being committed by a student athlete, so long as there was a cover up.


I have never, and will never, defend a student athlete (or any other person affiliated with a university) who commits a crime.

I will defend the university itself from extraneous punishment, simply because someone or someones who are affiliated with it, commit crime(s).

Yeah, I've heard this argument before and it didn't make sense when it was initially offered either.

You are basically describing how sanctions work and how they have always worked everywhere. Are you suggesting that no program should ever be sanctioned? If so, how do you curb illegal behavior and/or cheating?

The same applies to the people who make the argument that by shutting down the program you're hurting local barnacle businesses. Again, that's a Penn State/Central Pennsylvania problem, not an NCAA problem.
03-18-2017 04:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,667
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 393
I Root For: Common Sense
Location: Nunnayadamnbusiness
Post: #56
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
The ironic part of all this is I am basically with you in spirit.

This was a criminal case and should be handled by the courts. Then again we have seen how poorly the courts of handled this so I'm not sure that was the answer either?

I'm not sure that the NCAA should've ever gotten involved in this mess in the first place? I think they were just trying to do something to assuage the outraged general public.

However, once they did decide to get involved, I don't know how anyone can justify not meting out the most severe punishment for what is obviously the worst scandal in the history of intercollegiate athletics? Really, it's the worst scandal in the history of American sports.

That's what I have always had a problem with. Once you get involved, then you have to go all the way. You have to make it abundantly clear that nonsense like this cannot be tolerated in a civilized society.

By opening up the door and then leaving open every caveat imaginable to them, the only message you have sent is that you are every bit as corrupt, arbitrary and ineffectual as their acolytes have accused you of being right from the start.

This was always a quid pro quo and everyone knows it.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2017 04:55 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
03-18-2017 04:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,667
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 393
I Root For: Common Sense
Location: Nunnayadamnbusiness
Post: #57
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
(03-15-2017 07:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-15-2017 07:48 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 11:36 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 11:21 AM)TerryD Wrote:  The five are the leaders of the entity or organization

An absolutely arbitrary observation, which should carry zero logical weight.


(03-14-2017 11:21 AM)TerryD Wrote:  You punish the entity to deter this type of stuff happening in the future.

A typical human conclusion: illogical, driven by emotional hatred, and ultimately ineffective, as it does not address the root cause of the problem.


Typical Bison over generalization and excuse mongering for wrongdoers.

Knee jerk reaction to any punishment handed out by the NCAA or the schools themselves.

Hint: You ain't that enlightened and magnanimous, even though you may think so.

You just seem to coddle offenders.

What about how Notre Dame's police protecting the player accused of fondling the woman who later committed suicide? What about recklessly allowing the student to die in the high winds observing the football field? Should Notre Dame football be shut down? These were more directly related to football and 2 lives were actually lost.

Bison just wants the actual offenders, the 3 stooges, to be punished.

I want that too. However, what is the point of having a lack of institutional control rule if you're not going to invoke it there?

Also, again, how is this different than any case involving a lack of institutional control?

We're talking about THE key decision-makers at that university conspiring to cover up sex crimes against children. They didn't do that because they hate children or condone child rape. They did that to protect the image of their football program, and by extension that university.

In other words, they allowed very real tragedies to take place to protect a very carefully cultivated myth that they were somehow special and different than everyone else. Well, they were different all right but not in the way they wanted us all to believe. It wasn't so much a fairytale as much as it was a nightmarish hell scape for a lot of young children.

You've got to keep the money train rolling though, right?

When those students rioted and tore apart that beautiful little town, who are they doing it for?

People need to ask themselves that question and then they need to be prepared to answer it in an honest and sincere way. I know the answer to that because I am married to a Penn State alum who is from a very proud Penn State family. I know that mindset like the back of my hand and I know exactly what this has always been all about: protecting the brand at literally all costs.
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2017 08:33 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
03-18-2017 08:31 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
MplsBison Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 16,511
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 181
I Root For: NDSU/Minnesota
Location:
Post: #58
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
(03-18-2017 04:49 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  You are basically describing how sanctions work and how they have always worked everywhere. Are you suggesting that no program should ever be sanctioned?

Let me turn that right back around at you: are you suggesting that by placing a massive sanction upon one school/athletic dept, one time, that extreme penalty will scare all other schools into falling in line, forever??

Didn't work. (SMU)
Doesn't work. (Penn St, UNC, Baylor, ... there will be more)


(03-18-2017 04:55 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I think they were just trying to do something to assuage the outraged general public.

No no, it was far less noble that that. It was a naked power grab.

Believe me, the NCAA would love to be thought of as an enforcer to be dealt with, rather than the accountant sitting behind a desk that it currently is.


(03-18-2017 04:55 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Once you get involved, then you have to go all the way. You have to make it abundantly clear that nonsense like this cannot be tolerated in a civilized society.

I won't disagree with that viewpoint.

I'll instead take the viewpoint that they never should've been involved, in the first place.


(03-18-2017 08:31 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  what is the point of having a lack of institutional control rule if you're not going to invoke it there?

Sorry Dr., but I just can't abide by such a faulty opinion.

That's zero different than saying "Well jeez, we've got all these intercontinental nuclear missiles ... when are we gonna fire off one of damn things?!?"

You never fire it. That's the point.


(03-18-2017 08:31 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  They didn't do that because they hate children or condone child rape. They did that to protect the image of their football program, and by extension that university.

In other words ... a few individuals at the top decided to perform the crime of a cover-up.

The motives for their cover-up were the same motives as every cover-up in history. The only point of a cover-up is that you are trying to protect a person and/or organization, not because you believe the original crimes were justified.

So what is your point??


(03-18-2017 08:31 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  When those students rioted and tore apart that beautiful little town, who are they doing it for?

They were sadly confused young people. Nothing more.

And they were doing it solely for Paterno. An individual.
03-19-2017 10:24 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,667
Joined: May 2010
Reputation: 393
I Root For: Common Sense
Location: Nunnayadamnbusiness
Post: #59
RE: 2 Penn St. ex-administrators plead guilty in sex abuse case
(03-19-2017 10:24 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Let me turn that right back around at you: are you suggesting that by placing a massive sanction upon one school/athletic dept, one time, that extreme penalty will scare all other schools into falling in line, forever??

Didn't work. (SMU)
Doesn't work. (Penn St, UNC, Baylor, ... there will be more)

Okay, I'm game. Then what would you prefer? No sanctions ever? Major fine to the institution? Barring coaches and administrators caught engaging in unethical and/or illegal practices from working again? I'm fine all of those things. However, to just throw your hands in the air and say, "Well, what can you do? This is for the courts to decide and we should all go about our business and forget all about this nastiness." I am absolutely NOT fine with that.

(03-19-2017 10:24 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  No no, it was far less noble that that. It was a naked power grab.

Again, I have no idea where you are coming from? By whom specifically and for what purpose.

NOTE: Please don't say "The NCAA" as some sort of nameless, faceless nebulous concept. I want to know who specifically and for what practical reason? I can think of a lot of EXTREMELY POWERFUL entities that would be highly financially motivated to protect one the college athletics' largest revenue generators. However, I don't understand the other side of the argument so please enlighten me.

(03-19-2017 10:24 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Believe me, the NCAA would love to be thought of as an enforcer to be dealt with, rather than the accountant sitting behind a desk that it currently is.

Look at that - we agree on something. However, you have a peculiar way of demonstrating your stated goal of stricter enforcement. Or do you just want stricter enforcement for other schools that get caught straying from ethical and/or legal standards?

(03-19-2017 10:24 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'll instead take the viewpoint that they never should've been involved, in the first place.

Again, I'm pretty much on board here. However, how does a victim get a fair trial in a company town when said company is Big State U? I guess that's for the courts to sort out?

Still, if this isn't textbook "lack of institutional control," then what is? You had the key decision makers of the university conspiring to cover up child rape in a brazen effort to protect the image of the once pristine and completely fabricated image of the football program. If that's not a lack of institutional control, I don't know what is?

(03-19-2017 10:24 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  what is the point of having a lack of institutional control rule if you're not going to invoke it there?

Sorry Dr., but I just can't abide by such a faulty opinion.

That's zero different than saying "Well jeez, we've got all these intercontinental nuclear missiles ... when are we gonna fire off one of damn things?!?"

You never fire it. That's the point.[/quote]

That's a really silly analogy.

It's more like saying, "Hey here is a case where the defendants fit the textbook definition of murder but we can't charge the suspects with murder because....uh...hey, look, an albino pigeon. Have you ever seen such a thing?"

(03-19-2017 10:24 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  In other words ... a few individuals at the top decided to perform the crime of a cover-up.

The motives for their cover-up were the same motives as every cover-up in history. The only point of a cover-up is that you are trying to protect a person and/or organization, not because you believe the original crimes were justified.

So what is your point??

What's my point?! What's MY point?! What do you think my point is?! My point is that they chose to protect the image of their football program over the very real health and well being of children who were raped. These emails PROVE that fact - whether anyone wants to admit it or not. That's my point.

(03-19-2017 10:24 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  They were sadly confused young people. Nothing more.

And they were doing it solely for Paterno. An individual.

Right. They were doing it for Kim Jong Paterno - their all-knowing and virtuous leader.

This happens all the time though, right. Just you people being young people. Would you please remind me where in the history of athletics this has happened elsewhere - where a town literally rioted in the streets because their coach was fired?

I'm all ears.
04-03-2017 11:09 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2017 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2017 MyBB Group.