what Tribe2011 said. Can't add anything to that.

(03-07-2017 04:02 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  The logic seems to be here that the program believes the pre-season overseas trip is more valuable and a better tool to have a successful year on the court (team bonding, more practice time)

Well so far, our logic has cast us as one of now four programs in the entire country who have never been to the NCAA tourney and a couple of trips to the NIT, all road games.

I think it's time we might want to start thinking a bit differently.

We did start thinking differently. We're about 2-3 seasons in from when Coach Shaver's (and staff's) recruiting and results spurred enough action from enough boosters to start having things like funded summer school and the Gold Rush game. This sentiment gets to the heart of my post from the tournament memories thread. Don't paint the current state of the program with the brush from the previous 40-50 years. Effectively, we're a program that's been in Division I for real for under 7 years.

To the point of impact on a season, I agree with Tribe2011 that playing early games overseas let's the new team get meaningful minutes together in what will be an important transition season, rather than playing games with a different roster than we'll have at the start of next season.

I am a bit surprised at how the early season tournaments are being completely overlooked here. As far as I am concerned, THAT is the avenue that should be examined and worked, a whole lot harder than it has been to date.

Early season tournaments get you, usually, good competition, that will help your RPI and strength of schedule, on a neutral court. The fact that we almost never get in one of these is a big question mark for me. VCU and A-10 schools, in general, are always looking for a tournament to get into in OOC. The CAA needs to start embracing the same sort of scheduling guidelines that leagues like the A-10 are using, if we ever want to improve our profile and stop being dismissed as a "single bid" league.

I really don't have a plus or minus on the alphabet post season tourneys. I figure if the guys want to play, fine. If not, fine, again. The foreign country trips do buy a little extra practice time, and open up a section of the world that most players have never had the chance to experience, but they don't get us much publicity, something W&M sports programs badly need, and they don't really help you recruit foreign kids, as that is a full scale commitment by the coaching staff to work that angle. Five days in, say Ireland, is not going to get you three straight years of 6'9" - 6'10" Dirk Nowitzski types knocking down your door to come to W&M.

So, my opinion, put most of our efforts into the fancy name tourneys, even if we have to go hat in hand, begging for an invitation.

(03-07-2017 04:02 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  The logic seems to be here that the program believes the pre-season overseas trip is more valuable and a better tool to have a successful year on the court (team bonding, more practice time) than a meaningless exhibition tournament at the end of the year prior.

I honestly don't care about results in any tournament below the NIT (and I think a lot of others don't either), so would only be interested in that tournament as it pertained to team growth for the next season. Makes sense that integrating your whole team for the year (with incoming freshman included) is more valuable.

These pay to play postseason tournaments seem like nothing more than a participation trophy and moneymaker for the organizers.

Let's be honest here ... no one cares about the NIT either, unless you're in it. The NCAA tourney sucks all of the air out of March.

The only reason the NIT is "attractive" is because the big schools play in it, but if you think we're ever going to get a fair shake in the NIT ...

I am really troubled by all of the emphasis on getting to the NCAA, and not giving consideration to the alternatives. I'm in favor of a program goal being in the post-season every year, regardless of which letters of the alphabet are involved.

This debate really highlights some of the hurdles still facing our men's program, despite all of its recent success. Even if we made the NCAAT in the next year or two, it probably doesn't solve all the issues raised by those here (although, we wouldn't have to worry about paying to play in a postseason tourney!). I think the biggest shot in the arm our program could see is the addition of a practice facility. It should increase the level of recruits we land and elevate performance on the court. Practice facility, post season tournament, preseason tournament...we still have quite the mountain to climb. Rome wasn't built in a day, but like most of you, I'm also getting impatient.

(03-07-2017 05:03 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Let's be honest here ... no one cares about the NIT either, unless you're in it. The NCAA tourney sucks all of the air out of March.

The only reason the NIT is "attractive" is because the big schools play in it, but if you think we're ever going to get a fair shake in the NIT ...

I am really troubled by all of the emphasis on getting to the NCAA, and not giving consideration to the alternatives. I'm in favor of a program goal being in the post-season every year, regardless of which letters of the alphabet are involved.

I have two questions for you here.

1) Doesn't the goal of playing post-season basketball become irrelevant if you don't even need a winning record to do so? It seems like there are better barometers for the state of the program than whether or not we bought a bid during a down year.

2) Does the fact that the players don't want to participate (or at least that's what we're told) matter at all to you? If the players were supportive I would be too but that doesn't seem to be the case.

(03-07-2017 04:50 PM)billymac Wrote:  I am a bit surprised at how the early season tournaments are being completely overlooked here. As far as I am concerned, THAT is the avenue that should be examined and worked, a whole lot harder than it has been to date.

Early season tournaments get you, usually, good competition, that will help your RPI and strength of schedule, on a neutral court. The fact that we almost never get in one of these is a big question mark for me. VCU and A-10 schools, in general, are always looking for a tournament to get into in OOC. The CAA needs to start embracing the same sort of scheduling guidelines that leagues like the A-10 are using, if we ever want to improve our profile and stop being dismissed as a "single bid" league.

I really don't have a plus or minus on the alphabet post season tourneys. I figure if the guys want to play, fine. If not, fine, again. The foreign country trips do buy a little extra practice time, and open up a section of the world that most players have never had the chance to experience, but they don't get us much publicity, something W&M sports programs badly need, and they don't really help you recruit foreign kids, as that is a full scale commitment by the coaching staff to work that angle. Five days in, say Ireland, is not going to get you three straight years of 6'9" - 6'10" Dirk Nowitzski types knocking down your door to come to W&M.

So, my opinion, put most of our efforts into the fancy name tourneys, even if we have to go hat in hand, begging for an invitation.

Billy, I agree. Praying and begging here for it.

Several of us have been begging for an invitation to Maui, Alaska, the Pre-NIT, or Atlantis tournament. My guess is that we have tried avenues to get invited, but I really don't know. Adding to the need for that for the Tribe is our December exam schedule. We need a 3-4 game tournament in November for games. Our nonconference was 11 games with 2 of those being non-Division 1. (Maybe the Ivies don't schedule more games either, not sure) I would argue no one played less games in November and December than we did. I also vividly recall how difficult the period from post-Thanksgiving until end of exams is for all W&M students. We did have 3 better games(at Duke, at Louisville and at Rhode Island) than anybody in our league. But 3-4 solid additional games with a trip for the kids would be fantastic pre-Thanksgiving. Who knows, some of us might show up too(especially if we are on a football playoff bye with no game until the next weekend).
I know this is not going to be a popular comment, but I think the Tribe's best hope for an NCAA bid is aggressive scheduling and consideration for an at large. Our best scheduling year ever was 2009-2010 when we had the following teams in Nov/Dec.- at UConn, at Harvard, at Wake and at Maryland plus a home date with VCU(granted that one was in conference). Our RPI was 2in late December. I know we did not get in that year, either, but we did everything we could via scheduling and it led to a non-automatic NIT bid. I want to see the Tribe win the CAA championship tourney as much as any fan. Only the coaches and players want it more than we do. Therefore, it makes sense to do everything we can to give each team two bites at the apple. Win enough games with good scheduling in the first 3 months, and you will be battle tested for March and give yourself a possible 2nd shot.
No issues with all of the great efforts since 2008. And, until we get that bid, Men's Basketball should be the Number 1 sport on campus(and I love the football program). For anyone complaining, just remember Mark Batsel's shot against American was all we had for about 15 years. Then, Charlie gave us a magical year in the late 90's. Now is fun, it is competitive, and it is tantalizingly close to something magical. When it happens, the school should invite every player than ever played for the Tribe to Kaplan for a 3 hour selection show party and special ceremony on that Sunday.

(03-07-2017 05:15 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  I have two questions for you here.

1) Doesn't the goal of playing post-season basketball become irrelevant if you don't even need a winning record to do so? It seems like there are better barometers for the state of the program than whether or not we bought a bid during a down year.

2) Does the fact that the players don't want to participate (or at least that's what we're told) matter at all to you? If the players were supportive I would be too but that doesn't seem to be the case.

1) This question is moving the goalposts, IMO. We've arguably had the best four year run in program history, and our post-season experience was nada, due to our own decision not to participate. I have a problem with that in terms of trying to build up the program.

2) Great question. Ask the players in 20-30 years if they made the right call, and whether the call should have been their decision. I get this. This was always a problem in the NIT when schools that didn't want to be there were one and done. Notwithstanding that, and notwithstanding the fact that the CBI/CIT doesn't quicken the pulse, they are post-season college basketball tournaments, and the College does have a college basketball team which, ostensibly, wants to compete with other college basketball teams.

A practice facility is a great idea. Not sure where it will be located, but really like the idea. As far the NCAA or bust obsession, three things:

1) It gets brought up by the media(Feinstein loves to bring it up) within 10 minutes of any important telecast for us. No sense denying it. Teams like the Red Sox and Cubs eventually overcame it. I know the Tribe will too. Really hoping my daughter will be a Tribe student in the stands when it happens.

2) I think the coaches have the right idea. The tournament is the ultimate goal, but they seem to be focused on getting better and improving as a team each year. Look at the improvement of Sheldon, Whitman, Britt, and even Omar and Daniel as examples. They each made great strides over their time in Williamsburg as players. I also think we are at least in the running on far more guys than we used to be. Watching Tribe basketball the last 10 years has been overall a joy, especially when compared to the Boyages and Swenson eras. Both the Men's and Women's teams have made major strides.
3) The school has made great efforts to provide access and encouragement for the team. We can see most of the games even if we live 4 hours away like me. The Gold Rush weekend is a 2nd homecoming weekend. The messages on YouTube, Twitter, and other social media are positive. As a result, the team now has a realistic home court advantage at Kaplan the last several years.

Several of you think the Tribe should play. Can anyone tell me what the results were this season for the 4 teams that advanced to the finals of the CBI and CIT?(make it 6 and add the Vegas tourney, if you want) That data might really further your argument and if timely could possibly influence a decision or two if posted here in the next few days before invitations are extended.

Regardless of the decision for this year, I think we would all agree that we would like to see the Tribe play in 3 tournaments next year(an early season one, the CAA, and a postseason one(preferably with 4 letters).

(03-07-2017 06:10 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  Several of you think the Tribe should play. Can anyone tell me what the results were this season for the 4 teams that advanced to the finals of the CBI and CIT?(make it 6 and add the Vegas tourney, if you want) That data might really further your argument and if timely could possibly influence a decision or two if posted here in the next few days before invitations are extended.

Regardless of the decision for this year, I think we would all agree that we would like to see the Tribe play in 3 tournaments next year(an early season one, the CAA, and a postseason one(preferably with 4 letters).

I think the Tribe should play - if they have the chance and if the players want to play.

Not sure how those teams did last year. And I doubt anyone here could tell us who the final four were in last year's NIT either. Doesn't mean I would turn that down either.

On the flip side, I haven't heard a single good reason why we shouldn't play if the players wanted, and we were invited. It's not an either/or with a Euro trip - to me that's no case.

We need exposure. And if that means we play George Mason, Auburn, Penn State (as Hampton did two years ago), Davidson, etc. - I think it's great.

(03-07-2017 06:10 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  Several of you think the Tribe should play. Can anyone tell me what the results were this season for the 4 teams that advanced to the finals of the CBI and CIT?(make it 6 and add the Vegas tourney, if you want) That data might really further your argument and if timely could possibly influence a decision or two if posted here in the next few days before invitations are extended.

Regardless of the decision for this year, I think we would all agree that we would like to see the Tribe play in 3 tournaments next year(an early season one, the CAA, and a postseason one(preferably with 4 letters).

Working on a hunch :-)

2016 CBI finalists:

Morehead St. finished second in the East (14-16) in 2017.
Nevada finished first (25-6) in 2017.

2016 CIT finalists:

UC Irvine finished first (19-13) in 2017.
Columbia finished fifth (11-16) in 2017 (but they do have a banner and a trophy)

2016 Vegas finalists:

ODU finished third (19-11) in 2017.
Oakland finished first (24-8) in 2017.

Nothing to see here! No correlation (tic)!

:-)

(03-07-2017 04:06 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 04:02 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  The logic seems to be here that the program believes the pre-season overseas trip is more valuable and a better tool to have a successful year on the court (team bonding, more practice time)

Well so far, our logic has cast us as one of now four programs in the entire country who have never been to the NCAA tourney and a couple of trips to the NIT, all road games.

I think it's time we might want to start thinking a bit differently.

That's fine, but are we sure that the CBI is the path to an NCAA tourney?

I'm a committed fan to UCIrvine. We have players who are good students. They love to compete. We won our league title and have the tournament this weekend. We are NCAA or NIT bound. We recruit overseas as well as locally. We play in the early season tournaments, this year in N Dakota and El Paso.
The Tribe needs to upgrade their scheduling. Playing overseas is as useful as chickensh t on a pump handle.

(03-07-2017 07:36 PM)SoCal Frank Wrote:  I'm a committed fan to UCIrvine. We have players who are good students. They love to compete. We won our league title and have the tournament this weekend. We are NCAA or NIT bound. We recruit overseas as well as locally. We play in the early season tournaments, this year in N Dakota and El Paso.
The Tribe needs to upgrade their scheduling. Playing overseas is as useful as chickensh t on a pump handle.

Should probably let UVA and VCU know that they're worthless. They might laugh at you though.

http://www.richmond.com/sports/college/b...8f7e3.html

(03-07-2017 07:05 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(03-07-2017 06:10 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  Several of you think the Tribe should play. Can anyone tell me what the results were this season for the 4 teams that advanced to the finals of the CBI and CIT?(make it 6 and add the Vegas tourney, if you want) That data might really further your argument and if timely could possibly influence a decision or two if posted here in the next few days before invitations are extended.

Regardless of the decision for this year, I think we would all agree that we would like to see the Tribe play in 3 tournaments next year(an early season one, the CAA, and a postseason one(preferably with 4 letters).

Working on a hunch :-)

2016 CBI finalists:

Morehead St. finished second in the East (14-16) in 2017.
Nevada finished first (25-6) in 2017.

2016 CIT finalists:

UC Irvine finished first (19-13) in 2017.
Columbia finished fifth (11-16) in 2017 (but they do have a banner and a trophy)

2016 Vegas finalists:

ODU finished third (19-11) in 2017.
Oakland finished first (24-8) in 2017.

Nothing to see here! No correlation (tic)!

:-)

Thanks NJ, good information to have.

These schools have money to burn. They have options. I laughed at UVA when I chose Wm and Mary. Not just them but Maryland and WVU as well. I'm no chump!

(03-07-2017 07:36 PM)SoCal Frank Wrote:  I'm a committed fan to UCIrvine. We have players who are good students. They love to compete. We won our league title and have the tournament this weekend. We are NCAA or NIT bound. We recruit overseas as well as locally. We play in the early season tournaments, this year in N Dakota and El Paso.
The Tribe needs to upgrade their scheduling. Playing overseas is as useful as chickensh t on a pump handle.

It's been mentioned before, but the UC Irvine coach, Russell Turner, is a Coach Shaver product from his Hampden Sydney days.

I'm with Billymac that the early season, exempt tournaments are where we have really been left at home on a Saturday night. Next fall appears to have more events than ever, with many still left to be filled. There may be something in the works we are not yet privy to, but if these are not being aggressively pursued, then we are not moving the program forward. Hofstra, Drexel, Liberty, Old Dominion, Richmond, George Mason, Davidson, VCU, Tech, UVA, all are signed up.

Frustrating to browse through the 2017 event brackets to date, when seeing teams across the spectrum. If it's about travel money, then....:
http://www.bloggingthebracket.com/2016/1...anksgiving

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