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H1-B winning for American workers
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H1-B winning for American workers
Trump finally getting things moving on the abuse of the H1-B visas. A Democrat and a Republican have bills in Congress and expedited processing, often used to replace American hi-tech workers, has been put on hold.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/3/1481083...wait-times
03-04-2017 11:22 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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RE: H1-B winning for American workers
Good. Immigrants are fine to fill gaps. The ability to man an IT help desk is not a gap. Plenty of Americans can fill these jobs.

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03-04-2017 11:27 PM
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hawghiggs Offline
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RE: H1-B winning for American workers
Whatever it takes to hold or create jobs.
03-05-2017 12:44 AM
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LeFlâneur Offline
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RE: H1-B winning for American workers
H1-B program has been a valuable tool but there have been cases of abuse which gives it a bad name.

It shouldn't be used to replace workers or when qualified domestic workers are available; which implies that H1-B visas shouldn't be allocated just to lower costs based on visa workers for less.

One of the most egregious, yet logical, abuses of the H1-B is the outsourcing of IT work to one of the Indian outsourcing firms (eg. Wippro), who takes over a company's IT but staffs with native Indians on H1-Bs. This is an end run around the spirit of the program and should be checked.
03-05-2017 08:27 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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RE: H1-B winning for American workers
We're catering to the slowest mover. This is nouveau-communism.
03-05-2017 11:23 AM
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #6
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 12:44 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  Whatever it takes to hold or create jobs.

Save or create, buddy. Save or create.


Semantics...catch the fever!!
03-05-2017 11:26 AM
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RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 11:23 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  We're catering to the slowest mover. This is nouveau-communism.

No it's not....

When we needed someone to do a server audit at a previous company I recommenced going and finding a kid about to graduate from the UoM. What we needed was an entry level guy who could run a few linux commands and put stuff in a spread sheet for a report.

My company was a fortune 500 company so for the kid it would hae been a very nice first entry on the resume and we would have only had to pay him 30-50K a year.

But, because we were tied in with an H1B shop I was told we should just go through them. So instead of find a very available American who would have been 20 miles away we hired someone for slightly more because of a relationship with an H1B shop.

And the end effect is one more American that industry can point to and say "he does'nt have any experience, so we need more H1b's"
03-05-2017 11:30 AM
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RE: H1-B winning for American workers
Another article mentioned it was very valuable for getting doctors into rural communities that had a hard time finding practicioners. But the high tech industry has monopolized these and abused the program.
03-05-2017 11:41 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 11:30 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:23 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  We're catering to the slowest mover. This is nouveau-communism.

No it's not....

When we needed someone to do a server audit at a previous company I recommenced going and finding a kid about to graduate from the UoM. What we needed was an entry level guy who could run a few linux commands and put stuff in a spread sheet for a report.

My company was a fortune 500 company so for the kid it would hae been a very nice first entry on the resume and we would have only had to pay him 30-50K a year.

But, because we were tied in with an H1B shop I was told we should just go through them. So instead of find a very available American who would have been 20 miles away we hired someone for slightly more because of a relationship with an H1B shop.

And the end effect is one more American that industry can point to and say "he does'nt have any experience, so we need more H1b's"

I don't know what you mean by "tied in w/ an H1B shop," but on a macro scale, your company will evolve to become more efficient, the H1B shop will become more efficient, or you'll be displaced by someone who is.

Additionally, the UoM will feel pressure to pump out better grads, and the UoM grad will feel pressure to become more marketable.

That's how capitalism works. Everyone is driven to better themselves.

Cutting out the H1B's would mean the UoM kid doesn't have an incentive to get better, the UoM doesn't have an incentive to get better, and your company (or companies like yours) doesn't/don't have the capacity to differentiate themselves on the free market by having efficient hiring practices (it may be s better idea to hire an H1B next time).

At the end of the day, the economy is less efficient so that "everyone (but the H1B guy) wins," just like in communism. And just like in communism, everyone will end up losing.

It's a terrible policy. If you feel like you're getting hurt by competitive pressures, welcome to capitalism. If you feel overwhelmed, you're either not in the right field, or you aren't good at what you do.* A government life raft sounds like a great idea on the surface, but it will end up hurting you more than it helps.

*I don't mean you personally. I mean the plural you, as in everyone reading this in general.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2017 01:35 PM by nzmorange.)
03-05-2017 01:34 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 01:34 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:30 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:23 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  We're catering to the slowest mover. This is nouveau-communism.

No it's not....

When we needed someone to do a server audit at a previous company I recommenced going and finding a kid about to graduate from the UoM. What we needed was an entry level guy who could run a few linux commands and put stuff in a spread sheet for a report.

My company was a fortune 500 company so for the kid it would hae been a very nice first entry on the resume and we would have only had to pay him 30-50K a year.

But, because we were tied in with an H1B shop I was told we should just go through them. So instead of find a very available American who would have been 20 miles away we hired someone for slightly more because of a relationship with an H1B shop.

And the end effect is one more American that industry can point to and say "he does'nt have any experience, so we need more H1b's"

I don't know what you mean by "tied in w/ an H1B shop," but on a macro scale, your company will evolve to become more efficient, the H1B shop will become more efficient, or you'll be displaced by someone who is.

Additionally, the UoM will feel pressure to pump out better grads, and the UoM grad will feel pressure to become more marketable.

That's how capitalism works. Everyone is driven to better themselves.

Cutting out the H1B's would mean the UoM kid doesn't have an incentive to get better, the UoM doesn't have an incentive to get better, and your company (or companies like yours) doesn't/don't have the capacity to differentiate themselves on the free market by having efficient hiring practices (it may be s better idea to hire an H1B next time).

At the end of the day, the economy is less efficient so that "everyone (but the H1B guy) wins," just like in communism. And just like in communism, everyone will end up losing.

It's a terrible policy. If you feel like you're getting hurt by competitive pressures, welcome to capitalism. If you feel overwhelmed, you're either not in the right field, or you aren't good at what you do.* A government life raft sounds like a great idea on the surface, but it will end up hurting you more than it helps.

*I don't mean you personally. I mean the plural you, as in everyone reading this in general.

Surely you are not slobbing over the H1B visa program because of Disney?
03-05-2017 01:36 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #11
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 01:36 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:34 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:30 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:23 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  We're catering to the slowest mover. This is nouveau-communism.

No it's not....

When we needed someone to do a server audit at a previous company I recommenced going and finding a kid about to graduate from the UoM. What we needed was an entry level guy who could run a few linux commands and put stuff in a spread sheet for a report.

My company was a fortune 500 company so for the kid it would hae been a very nice first entry on the resume and we would have only had to pay him 30-50K a year.

But, because we were tied in with an H1B shop I was told we should just go through them. So instead of find a very available American who would have been 20 miles away we hired someone for slightly more because of a relationship with an H1B shop.

And the end effect is one more American that industry can point to and say "he does'nt have any experience, so we need more H1b's"

I don't know what you mean by "tied in w/ an H1B shop," but on a macro scale, your company will evolve to become more efficient, the H1B shop will become more efficient, or you'll be displaced by someone who is.

Additionally, the UoM will feel pressure to pump out better grads, and the UoM grad will feel pressure to become more marketable.

That's how capitalism works. Everyone is driven to better themselves.

Cutting out the H1B's would mean the UoM kid doesn't have an incentive to get better, the UoM doesn't have an incentive to get better, and your company (or companies like yours) doesn't/don't have the capacity to differentiate themselves on the free market by having efficient hiring practices (it may be s better idea to hire an H1B next time).

At the end of the day, the economy is less efficient so that "everyone (but the H1B guy) wins," just like in communism. And just like in communism, everyone will end up losing.

It's a terrible policy. If you feel like you're getting hurt by competitive pressures, welcome to capitalism. If you feel overwhelmed, you're either not in the right field, or you aren't good at what you do.* A government life raft sounds like a great idea on the surface, but it will end up hurting you more than it helps.

*I don't mean you personally. I mean the plural you, as in everyone reading this in general.

Surely you are not slobbing over the H1B visa program because of Disney?

The only Disney products that I consume are Star Wars movies and ESPN. I wouldn't bat an eye if Disney went under tomorrow, as long as Star Wars and ESPN kept rolling.

I'm "slobbing" over the program because, unlike some posters in this board, I'm not afraid of the free market, and I want what's best for both myself and my country - even if it means that I have to work hard to stay ahead of foreign competitive pressures.

I feel the same way about free trade.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2017 01:41 PM by nzmorange.)
03-05-2017 01:40 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #12
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 01:40 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:36 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:34 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:30 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:23 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  We're catering to the slowest mover. This is nouveau-communism.

No it's not....

When we needed someone to do a server audit at a previous company I recommenced going and finding a kid about to graduate from the UoM. What we needed was an entry level guy who could run a few linux commands and put stuff in a spread sheet for a report.

My company was a fortune 500 company so for the kid it would hae been a very nice first entry on the resume and we would have only had to pay him 30-50K a year.

But, because we were tied in with an H1B shop I was told we should just go through them. So instead of find a very available American who would have been 20 miles away we hired someone for slightly more because of a relationship with an H1B shop.

And the end effect is one more American that industry can point to and say "he does'nt have any experience, so we need more H1b's"

I don't know what you mean by "tied in w/ an H1B shop," but on a macro scale, your company will evolve to become more efficient, the H1B shop will become more efficient, or you'll be displaced by someone who is.

Additionally, the UoM will feel pressure to pump out better grads, and the UoM grad will feel pressure to become more marketable.

That's how capitalism works. Everyone is driven to better themselves.

Cutting out the H1B's would mean the UoM kid doesn't have an incentive to get better, the UoM doesn't have an incentive to get better, and your company (or companies like yours) doesn't/don't have the capacity to differentiate themselves on the free market by having efficient hiring practices (it may be s better idea to hire an H1B next time).

At the end of the day, the economy is less efficient so that "everyone (but the H1B guy) wins," just like in communism. And just like in communism, everyone will end up losing.

It's a terrible policy. If you feel like you're getting hurt by competitive pressures, welcome to capitalism. If you feel overwhelmed, you're either not in the right field, or you aren't good at what you do.* A government life raft sounds like a great idea on the surface, but it will end up hurting you more than it helps.

*I don't mean you personally. I mean the plural you, as in everyone reading this in general.

Surely you are not slobbing over the H1B visa program because of Disney?

The only Disney products that I consume are Star Wars movies and ESPN. I wouldn't bat an eye if Disney went under tomorrow, as long as Star Wars and ESPN kept rolling.

I'm "slobbing" over the program because, unlike some posters in this board, I'm not afraid of the free market, and I want what's best for both myself and my country - even if it means that I have to work hard to stay ahead of foreign competitive pressures.

I feel the same way about free trade.

The way Disney did it wasnt a "free market". The group from India they hired wasnt able to compete head to head with the american workers. The american workers had to train them on how to do their own jobs, and that if they didnt or if they told anyone what was going on, they wouldnt get any severance package. Thats not free market. Thats extortion.

Thats like me going to apple and demanding them to hand me over all of the iphone secrets, then me firing all of them and starting up my own iphone manufacturing plant that can crank out phones for much less than apple, because all of the expertise doesnt have to be paid for. I got it for free. Free market and all.



Thats like saying
03-05-2017 01:47 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #13
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 01:47 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:40 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:36 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:34 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:30 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  No it's not....

When we needed someone to do a server audit at a previous company I recommenced going and finding a kid about to graduate from the UoM. What we needed was an entry level guy who could run a few linux commands and put stuff in a spread sheet for a report.

My company was a fortune 500 company so for the kid it would hae been a very nice first entry on the resume and we would have only had to pay him 30-50K a year.

But, because we were tied in with an H1B shop I was told we should just go through them. So instead of find a very available American who would have been 20 miles away we hired someone for slightly more because of a relationship with an H1B shop.

And the end effect is one more American that industry can point to and say "he does'nt have any experience, so we need more H1b's"

I don't know what you mean by "tied in w/ an H1B shop," but on a macro scale, your company will evolve to become more efficient, the H1B shop will become more efficient, or you'll be displaced by someone who is.

Additionally, the UoM will feel pressure to pump out better grads, and the UoM grad will feel pressure to become more marketable.

That's how capitalism works. Everyone is driven to better themselves.

Cutting out the H1B's would mean the UoM kid doesn't have an incentive to get better, the UoM doesn't have an incentive to get better, and your company (or companies like yours) doesn't/don't have the capacity to differentiate themselves on the free market by having efficient hiring practices (it may be s better idea to hire an H1B next time).

At the end of the day, the economy is less efficient so that "everyone (but the H1B guy) wins," just like in communism. And just like in communism, everyone will end up losing.

It's a terrible policy. If you feel like you're getting hurt by competitive pressures, welcome to capitalism. If you feel overwhelmed, you're either not in the right field, or you aren't good at what you do.* A government life raft sounds like a great idea on the surface, but it will end up hurting you more than it helps.

*I don't mean you personally. I mean the plural you, as in everyone reading this in general.

Surely you are not slobbing over the H1B visa program because of Disney?

The only Disney products that I consume are Star Wars movies and ESPN. I wouldn't bat an eye if Disney went under tomorrow, as long as Star Wars and ESPN kept rolling.

I'm "slobbing" over the program because, unlike some posters in this board, I'm not afraid of the free market, and I want what's best for both myself and my country - even if it means that I have to work hard to stay ahead of foreign competitive pressures.

I feel the same way about free trade.

The way Disney did it wasnt a "free market". The group from India they hired wasnt able to compete head to head with the american workers. The american workers had to train them on how to do their own jobs, and that if they didnt or if they told anyone what was going on, they wouldnt get any severance package. Thats not free market. Thats extortion.

Thats like me going to apple and demanding them to hand me over all of the iphone secrets, then me firing all of them and starting up my own iphone manufacturing plant that can crank out phones for much less than apple, because all of the expertise doesnt have to be paid for. I got it for free. Free market and all.



Thats like saying

I'm guessing the Indians were cheaper and therefore more competitive. That's how the free market works.

Government-sponsored inefficiency reeks of Soviet Russia.

Also, your analogy is flawed. Disney paid people to do something in real life. Your analogy involves you making unpaid demands and coercing compliance through some undisclosed means.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2017 03:05 PM by nzmorange.)
03-05-2017 03:03 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #14
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 03:03 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:47 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:40 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:36 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:34 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I don't know what you mean by "tied in w/ an H1B shop," but on a macro scale, your company will evolve to become more efficient, the H1B shop will become more efficient, or you'll be displaced by someone who is.

Additionally, the UoM will feel pressure to pump out better grads, and the UoM grad will feel pressure to become more marketable.

That's how capitalism works. Everyone is driven to better themselves.

Cutting out the H1B's would mean the UoM kid doesn't have an incentive to get better, the UoM doesn't have an incentive to get better, and your company (or companies like yours) doesn't/don't have the capacity to differentiate themselves on the free market by having efficient hiring practices (it may be s better idea to hire an H1B next time).

At the end of the day, the economy is less efficient so that "everyone (but the H1B guy) wins," just like in communism. And just like in communism, everyone will end up losing.

It's a terrible policy. If you feel like you're getting hurt by competitive pressures, welcome to capitalism. If you feel overwhelmed, you're either not in the right field, or you aren't good at what you do.* A government life raft sounds like a great idea on the surface, but it will end up hurting you more than it helps.

*I don't mean you personally. I mean the plural you, as in everyone reading this in general.

Surely you are not slobbing over the H1B visa program because of Disney?

The only Disney products that I consume are Star Wars movies and ESPN. I wouldn't bat an eye if Disney went under tomorrow, as long as Star Wars and ESPN kept rolling.

I'm "slobbing" over the program because, unlike some posters in this board, I'm not afraid of the free market, and I want what's best for both myself and my country - even if it means that I have to work hard to stay ahead of foreign competitive pressures.

I feel the same way about free trade.

The way Disney did it wasnt a "free market". The group from India they hired wasnt able to compete head to head with the american workers. The american workers had to train them on how to do their own jobs, and that if they didnt or if they told anyone what was going on, they wouldnt get any severance package. Thats not free market. Thats extortion.

Thats like me going to apple and demanding them to hand me over all of the iphone secrets, then me firing all of them and starting up my own iphone manufacturing plant that can crank out phones for much less than apple, because all of the expertise doesnt have to be paid for. I got it for free. Free market and all.



Thats like saying

I'm guessing the Indians were cheaper and therefore more competitive. That's how the free market works.

Government-sponsored inefficiency reeks of Soviet Russia.

Also, your analogy is flawed. Disney paid people to do something in real life. Your analogy involves you making unpaid demands and coercing compliance through some undisclosed means.

wrong. The indians were cheaper because they didnt have the expertise to do the job.

The analogy is correct, because that was the shortcut Disney tried to pull. Take people who have expertise and therefore valuable, and make them transfer their expertise to those who dont have it who will work for less money.

Without the transferring of expertise, the lower wage people cant do the job.
03-05-2017 03:31 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #15
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 03:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:03 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:47 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:40 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:36 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Surely you are not slobbing over the H1B visa program because of Disney?

The only Disney products that I consume are Star Wars movies and ESPN. I wouldn't bat an eye if Disney went under tomorrow, as long as Star Wars and ESPN kept rolling.

I'm "slobbing" over the program because, unlike some posters in this board, I'm not afraid of the free market, and I want what's best for both myself and my country - even if it means that I have to work hard to stay ahead of foreign competitive pressures.

I feel the same way about free trade.

The way Disney did it wasnt a "free market". The group from India they hired wasnt able to compete head to head with the american workers. The american workers had to train them on how to do their own jobs, and that if they didnt or if they told anyone what was going on, they wouldnt get any severance package. Thats not free market. Thats extortion.

Thats like me going to apple and demanding them to hand me over all of the iphone secrets, then me firing all of them and starting up my own iphone manufacturing plant that can crank out phones for much less than apple, because all of the expertise doesnt have to be paid for. I got it for free. Free market and all.



Thats like saying

I'm guessing the Indians were cheaper and therefore more competitive. That's how the free market works.

Government-sponsored inefficiency reeks of Soviet Russia.

Also, your analogy is flawed. Disney paid people to do something in real life. Your analogy involves you making unpaid demands and coercing compliance through some undisclosed means.

wrong. The indians were cheaper because they didnt have the expertise to do the job.

The analogy is correct, because that was the shortcut Disney tried to pull. Take people who have expertise and therefore valuable, and make them transfer their expertise to those who dont have it who will work for less money.

Without the transferring of expertise, the lower wage people cant do the job.

It sounds like the Indians had enough experience to do the job w/ a little bit of training and were willing to do the same job for a cheaper price. How does that not make them better? The alternative was to keep paying workers w/ more experience who were only willing to do the job for more. How is that not inefficient? Why should the government mandate inefficiency? That sounds a lot like Soviet-era thinking to me...

And Disney paid them to do it. Disney didn't make anybody do anything. There were zero guns to anybody's head. Your analogy fails because it uses coercion. Disney used carrots and the lack thereof. See the difference.

As for your last point, should companies stop hiring college grads? Without professors transferring their experience to those grads, they probably couldn't do the jobs that they were hired to do.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2017 03:38 PM by nzmorange.)
03-05-2017 03:37 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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Post: #16
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 03:37 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:03 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:47 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:40 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  The only Disney products that I consume are Star Wars movies and ESPN. I wouldn't bat an eye if Disney went under tomorrow, as long as Star Wars and ESPN kept rolling.

I'm "slobbing" over the program because, unlike some posters in this board, I'm not afraid of the free market, and I want what's best for both myself and my country - even if it means that I have to work hard to stay ahead of foreign competitive pressures.

I feel the same way about free trade.

The way Disney did it wasnt a "free market". The group from India they hired wasnt able to compete head to head with the american workers. The american workers had to train them on how to do their own jobs, and that if they didnt or if they told anyone what was going on, they wouldnt get any severance package. Thats not free market. Thats extortion.

Thats like me going to apple and demanding them to hand me over all of the iphone secrets, then me firing all of them and starting up my own iphone manufacturing plant that can crank out phones for much less than apple, because all of the expertise doesnt have to be paid for. I got it for free. Free market and all.



Thats like saying

I'm guessing the Indians were cheaper and therefore more competitive. That's how the free market works.

Government-sponsored inefficiency reeks of Soviet Russia.

Also, your analogy is flawed. Disney paid people to do something in real life. Your analogy involves you making unpaid demands and coercing compliance through some undisclosed means.

wrong. The indians were cheaper because they didnt have the expertise to do the job.

The analogy is correct, because that was the shortcut Disney tried to pull. Take people who have expertise and therefore valuable, and make them transfer their expertise to those who dont have it who will work for less money.

Without the transferring of expertise, the lower wage people cant do the job.

It sounds like the Indians had enough experience to do the job w/ a little bit of training and were willing to do the same job for a cheaper price. How does that not make them better? The alternative was to keep paying workers w/ more experience who were only willing to do the job for more. How is that not inefficient? Why should the government mandate inefficiency? That sounds a lot like Soviet-era thinking to me...

And Disney paid them to do it. Disney didn't make anybody do anything. There were zero guns to anybody's head. Your analogy fails because it uses coercion. Disney used carrots and the lack thereof. See the difference.

As for your last point, should companies stop hiring college grads? Without professors transferring their experience to those grads, they probably couldn't do the jobs that they were hired to do.

Zero guns to anyones heads? Are you kidding? Disney said they would withhold a severance package if the employees refused to train the indians or leaked what was happening.

That doesnt sound like free market to me.

Why is it you guys have so much problem with transparency?

Also, let's look at it this way. Why are the indians cheaper? Well, for one, they dont have the same skill level. No problem, just put a gun to the american workers head and train them up.

But the second reason indians are cheaper is because its cheaper for them to do business, because they can conduct it in a country without the regulations. Its easier to be cheaper labor when one entity doesnt have to deal with paying into medicaid and social security, pay for OBlunder care, and ensure that their workplace is ADA compliant.

Its not free market. Get rid of the american regulations, and then it would be free market.

And you guys wonder why companies were leaving america for mexico.
03-05-2017 03:57 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #17
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 03:57 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:37 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:03 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:47 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  The way Disney did it wasnt a "free market". The group from India they hired wasnt able to compete head to head with the american workers. The american workers had to train them on how to do their own jobs, and that if they didnt or if they told anyone what was going on, they wouldnt get any severance package. Thats not free market. Thats extortion.

Thats like me going to apple and demanding them to hand me over all of the iphone secrets, then me firing all of them and starting up my own iphone manufacturing plant that can crank out phones for much less than apple, because all of the expertise doesnt have to be paid for. I got it for free. Free market and all.



Thats like saying

I'm guessing the Indians were cheaper and therefore more competitive. That's how the free market works.

Government-sponsored inefficiency reeks of Soviet Russia.

Also, your analogy is flawed. Disney paid people to do something in real life. Your analogy involves you making unpaid demands and coercing compliance through some undisclosed means.

wrong. The indians were cheaper because they didnt have the expertise to do the job.

The analogy is correct, because that was the shortcut Disney tried to pull. Take people who have expertise and therefore valuable, and make them transfer their expertise to those who dont have it who will work for less money.

Without the transferring of expertise, the lower wage people cant do the job.

It sounds like the Indians had enough experience to do the job w/ a little bit of training and were willing to do the same job for a cheaper price. How does that not make them better? The alternative was to keep paying workers w/ more experience who were only willing to do the job for more. How is that not inefficient? Why should the government mandate inefficiency? That sounds a lot like Soviet-era thinking to me...

And Disney paid them to do it. Disney didn't make anybody do anything. There were zero guns to anybody's head. Your analogy fails because it uses coercion. Disney used carrots and the lack thereof. See the difference.

As for your last point, should companies stop hiring college grads? Without professors transferring their experience to those grads, they probably couldn't do the jobs that they were hired to do.

Zero guns to anyones heads? Are you kidding? Disney said they would withhold a severance package if the employees refused to train the indians or leaked what was happening.

That doesnt sound like free market to me.

Why is it you guys have so much problem with transparency?

Also, let's look at it this way. Why are the indians cheaper? Well, for one, they dont have the same skill level. No problem, just put a gun to the american workers head and train them up.

But the second reason indians are cheaper is because its cheaper for them to do business, because they can conduct it in a country without the regulations. Its easier to be cheaper labor when one entity doesnt have to deal with paying into medicaid and social security, pay for OBlunder care, and ensure that their workplace is ADA compliant.

Its not free market. Get rid of the american regulations, and then it would be free market.

And you guys wonder why companies were leaving america for mexico.

1) You're describing a carrot and calling it a gun. That doesn't make it so.
2) I have zero problems w/ transparency. I have no idea what you're talking about.
3) paying someone to train another is hardly putting a gun to their head. It's called employing them. You'd think that universities were POW camps from your description. And clearly the Indians' lack of skills want an issue. They were willing to do the same job at a good enough performance level for a cheaper price. Why shouldn't Disney hire them?
4) So your solution to "too much government regulation" is "more government regulation?" I have a better idea: train American workers to be the best in the world, let American companies hire who they want, and export free trade ideas throughout the world. My system works significantly better than mandating who companies can hire in an anti-free trade closed economy that has little incentive to invest in education. The Russians tried that, and the North Koreans have that.
03-06-2017 08:06 PM
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Post: #18
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-06-2017 08:06 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:57 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:37 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 03:03 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I'm guessing the Indians were cheaper and therefore more competitive. That's how the free market works.

Government-sponsored inefficiency reeks of Soviet Russia.

Also, your analogy is flawed. Disney paid people to do something in real life. Your analogy involves you making unpaid demands and coercing compliance through some undisclosed means.

wrong. The indians were cheaper because they didnt have the expertise to do the job.

The analogy is correct, because that was the shortcut Disney tried to pull. Take people who have expertise and therefore valuable, and make them transfer their expertise to those who dont have it who will work for less money.

Without the transferring of expertise, the lower wage people cant do the job.

It sounds like the Indians had enough experience to do the job w/ a little bit of training and were willing to do the same job for a cheaper price. How does that not make them better? The alternative was to keep paying workers w/ more experience who were only willing to do the job for more. How is that not inefficient? Why should the government mandate inefficiency? That sounds a lot like Soviet-era thinking to me...

And Disney paid them to do it. Disney didn't make anybody do anything. There were zero guns to anybody's head. Your analogy fails because it uses coercion. Disney used carrots and the lack thereof. See the difference.

As for your last point, should companies stop hiring college grads? Without professors transferring their experience to those grads, they probably couldn't do the jobs that they were hired to do.

Zero guns to anyones heads? Are you kidding? Disney said they would withhold a severance package if the employees refused to train the indians or leaked what was happening.

That doesnt sound like free market to me.

Why is it you guys have so much problem with transparency?

Also, let's look at it this way. Why are the indians cheaper? Well, for one, they dont have the same skill level. No problem, just put a gun to the american workers head and train them up.

But the second reason indians are cheaper is because its cheaper for them to do business, because they can conduct it in a country without the regulations. Its easier to be cheaper labor when one entity doesnt have to deal with paying into medicaid and social security, pay for OBlunder care, and ensure that their workplace is ADA compliant.

Its not free market. Get rid of the american regulations, and then it would be free market.

And you guys wonder why companies were leaving america for mexico.

1) You're describing a carrot and calling it a gun. That doesn't make it so.
2) I have zero problems w/ transparency. I have no idea what you're talking about.
3) paying someone to train another is hardly putting a gun to their head. It's called employing them. You'd think that universities were POW camps from your description. And clearly the Indians' lack of skills want an issue. They were willing to do the same job at a good enough performance level for a cheaper price. Why shouldn't Disney hire them?
4) So your solution to "too much government regulation" is "more government regulation?" I have a better idea: train American workers to be the best in the world, let American companies hire who they want, and export free trade ideas throughout the world. My system works significantly better than mandating who companies can hire in an anti-free trade closed economy that has little incentive to invest in education. The Russians tried that, and the North Koreans have that.
So you support bringing aliens in legally to replace American citizens in their jobs?
03-06-2017 08:17 PM
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Hood-rich Offline
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Post: #19
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
(03-05-2017 01:47 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:40 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:36 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 01:34 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 11:30 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  No it's not....

When we needed someone to do a server audit at a previous company I recommenced going and finding a kid about to graduate from the UoM. What we needed was an entry level guy who could run a few linux commands and put stuff in a spread sheet for a report.

My company was a fortune 500 company so for the kid it would hae been a very nice first entry on the resume and we would have only had to pay him 30-50K a year.

But, because we were tied in with an H1B shop I was told we should just go through them. So instead of find a very available American who would have been 20 miles away we hired someone for slightly more because of a relationship with an H1B shop.

And the end effect is one more American that industry can point to and say "he does'nt have any experience, so we need more H1b's"

I don't know what you mean by "tied in w/ an H1B shop," but on a macro scale, your company will evolve to become more efficient, the H1B shop will become more efficient, or you'll be displaced by someone who is.

Additionally, the UoM will feel pressure to pump out better grads, and the UoM grad will feel pressure to become more marketable.

That's how capitalism works. Everyone is driven to better themselves.

Cutting out the H1B's would mean the UoM kid doesn't have an incentive to get better, the UoM doesn't have an incentive to get better, and your company (or companies like yours) doesn't/don't have the capacity to differentiate themselves on the free market by having efficient hiring practices (it may be s better idea to hire an H1B next time).

At the end of the day, the economy is less efficient so that "everyone (but the H1B guy) wins," just like in communism. And just like in communism, everyone will end up losing.

It's a terrible policy. If you feel like you're getting hurt by competitive pressures, welcome to capitalism. If you feel overwhelmed, you're either not in the right field, or you aren't good at what you do.* A government life raft sounds like a great idea on the surface, but it will end up hurting you more than it helps.

*I don't mean you personally. I mean the plural you, as in everyone reading this in general.

Surely you are not slobbing over the H1B visa program because of Disney?

The only Disney products that I consume are Star Wars movies and ESPN. I wouldn't bat an eye if Disney went under tomorrow, as long as Star Wars and ESPN kept rolling.

I'm "slobbing" over the program because, unlike some posters in this board, I'm not afraid of the free market, and I want what's best for both myself and my country - even if it means that I have to work hard to stay ahead of foreign competitive pressures.

I feel the same way about free trade.

The way Disney did it wasnt a "free market". The group from India they hired wasnt able to compete head to head with the american workers. The american workers had to train them on how to do their own jobs, and that if they didnt or if they told anyone what was going on, they wouldnt get any severance package. Thats not free market. Thats extortion.

Thats like me going to apple and demanding them to hand me over all of the iphone secrets, then me firing all of them and starting up my own iphone manufacturing plant that can crank out phones for much less than apple, because all of the expertise doesnt have to be paid for. I got it for free. Free market and all.

That's essentially what they do in China if you want to enter their market. People who think that's a good thing are idiots or intellectually dishonest.

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03-06-2017 09:00 PM
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LeFlâneur Offline
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Post: #20
RE: H1-B winning for American workers
Quote:This week’s Regeneron Science Talent Search—also referred to as the Junior Nobel Prize—will feature advances from America’s brightest young minds........Lo, 83% of last year’s finalists were children of immigrants,.... and three quarters had parents who worked in the U.S. on an H-1B (high-skilled worker) visa.

Linky dinky
03-07-2017 08:54 AM
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