(03-03-2017 01:56 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:32 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:28 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:13 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:07 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  I guess we can argue stats all day long.

Based on what I saw last night, I would trade maybe Ojeleye at SMU for Dedric.

That's it to me. There are other good players in this league, but I don't see anyone who does things across the board like those two.

IMO

Agreed...Dedric is a very good offensive player, very good rebounder and average defender.

I wouldn't trade Dedric for many other guys in THIS league.

Average defender?

You trot out all those advanced stats to "prove" KJ is "flawed."

Don't be dishonest, because I know when you were digging up those metrics you had to have seen that Dedric is rated very highly in defensive metrics.

Don't know if you will turtle up on this so:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play...son-1.html

Dedric:

Block Percentage
2015-16 AAC 5.1 (9th)
2016-17 AAC 6.8 (4th)
Career AAC 5.9 (15th)

Defensive Win Shares
2015-16 AAC 2.4 (3rd)
2016-17 AAC 2.4 (4th)
Career AAC 4.8 (10th)

Defensive Rating
2015-16 AAC 93.0 (6th)
2016-17 AAC 93.0 (9th)
Career AAC 93.0 (9th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
2015-16 AAC 4.8 (6th)
2016-17 AAC 5.3 (6th)
Career AAC 5.1 (9th)

My lying damn eyes say otherwise.

Does he grab a bunch of rebounds yes
Does he get a bunch of blocks yes
Does get steals yes

Do we give him help against below average post players yes
Does he get destroyed if caught in a switch on a high screen yes

So wouldn't you say the fact Tubby feels he needs defensive help along with the fact that other teams try to get him involved in the pick roll indicate they are not good in these areas.

You see you have to watch the games to get a true feel of what is happening...

And I posted Stats earlier because that is what you respond to...Anyone watching enough games would know KJ is flawed and mostly effective against certain types of players.

But you are quick to respond to KJ's impressive slash line with those same metrics.

Can't have it both ways.

These stats don't mean s***. KJ hasn't played hard all year because he hasn't been pushed in his life. Dedric is playing harder last 5 games or so because the scouts are watching. Pops gets a list of scouts before every game. Now a player from a different background who has had to fight for every thing in life-they play from the tip. Vaughn as freshman was such a hard worker. Penny, Andre, Garner, DJ, Lorenzen etc. Anyone remember those guys coasting full or half games?

i will saying it again. When we lose in CT it will be because we didn't come out with any fire; Tubby hasn't been able to do it for them. We will fall behind 12-15 and follow the script. You may see this script Saturday against SMU. I would pay a lot of money to see Cal coach this team ONE GAME.

(03-03-2017 02:14 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:56 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:32 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:28 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:13 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Agreed...Dedric is a very good offensive player, very good rebounder and average defender.

I wouldn't trade Dedric for many other guys in THIS league.

Average defender?

You trot out all those advanced stats to "prove" KJ is "flawed."

Don't be dishonest, because I know when you were digging up those metrics you had to have seen that Dedric is rated very highly in defensive metrics.

Don't know if you will turtle up on this so:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play...son-1.html

Dedric:

Block Percentage
2015-16 AAC 5.1 (9th)
2016-17 AAC 6.8 (4th)
Career AAC 5.9 (15th)

Defensive Win Shares
2015-16 AAC 2.4 (3rd)
2016-17 AAC 2.4 (4th)
Career AAC 4.8 (10th)

Defensive Rating
2015-16 AAC 93.0 (6th)
2016-17 AAC 93.0 (9th)
Career AAC 93.0 (9th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
2015-16 AAC 4.8 (6th)
2016-17 AAC 5.3 (6th)
Career AAC 5.1 (9th)

My lying damn eyes say otherwise.

Does he grab a bunch of rebounds yes
Does he get a bunch of blocks yes
Does get steals yes

Do we give him help against below average post players yes
Does he get destroyed if caught in a switch on a high screen yes

So wouldn't you say the fact Tubby feels he needs defensive help along with the fact that other teams try to get him involved in the pick roll indicate they are not good in these areas.

You see you have to watch the games to get a true feel of what is happening...

And I posted Stats earlier because that is what you respond to...Anyone watching enough games would know KJ is flawed and mostly effective against certain types of players.

But you are quick to respond to KJ's impressive slash line with those same metrics.

Can't have it both ways.

I replied to you with numbers because you posted numbers...I have said countless times what KJs visible weaknesses were but you ignore those and keep posting numbers so I combated your numbers with numbers.

You never post anything specific about his game...Only Numbers

(03-03-2017 02:14 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:56 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:32 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:28 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:13 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Agreed...Dedric is a very good offensive player, very good rebounder and average defender.

I wouldn't trade Dedric for many other guys in THIS league.

Average defender?

You trot out all those advanced stats to "prove" KJ is "flawed."

Don't be dishonest, because I know when you were digging up those metrics you had to have seen that Dedric is rated very highly in defensive metrics.

Don't know if you will turtle up on this so:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play...son-1.html

Dedric:

Block Percentage
2015-16 AAC 5.1 (9th)
2016-17 AAC 6.8 (4th)
Career AAC 5.9 (15th)

Defensive Win Shares
2015-16 AAC 2.4 (3rd)
2016-17 AAC 2.4 (4th)
Career AAC 4.8 (10th)

Defensive Rating
2015-16 AAC 93.0 (6th)
2016-17 AAC 93.0 (9th)
Career AAC 93.0 (9th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
2015-16 AAC 4.8 (6th)
2016-17 AAC 5.3 (6th)
Career AAC 5.1 (9th)

My lying damn eyes say otherwise.

Does he grab a bunch of rebounds yes
Does he get a bunch of blocks yes
Does get steals yes

Do we give him help against below average post players yes
Does he get destroyed if caught in a switch on a high screen yes

So wouldn't you say the fact Tubby feels he needs defensive help along with the fact that other teams try to get him involved in the pick roll indicate they are not good in these areas.

You see you have to watch the games to get a true feel of what is happening...

And I posted Stats earlier because that is what you respond to...Anyone watching enough games would know KJ is flawed and mostly effective against certain types of players.

But you are quick to respond to KJ's impressive slash line with those same metrics.

Can't have it both ways.

Stats can be totally skewed depending on the team.

Example: If Dedric was playing alongside Joey Dorsey, Probably not going to average double figures in reb. If playing with CDR, less pts.

Example: Taggart could probably put up similar stats on this team.
Dozier, too. They would have to score more. Would get more shots.

To me, shooting pct. is always the best metric.

(03-03-2017 03:31 PM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 02:14 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:56 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:32 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:28 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  Average defender?

You trot out all those advanced stats to "prove" KJ is "flawed."

Don't be dishonest, because I know when you were digging up those metrics you had to have seen that Dedric is rated very highly in defensive metrics.

Don't know if you will turtle up on this so:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play...son-1.html

Dedric:

Block Percentage
2015-16 AAC 5.1 (9th)
2016-17 AAC 6.8 (4th)
Career AAC 5.9 (15th)

Defensive Win Shares
2015-16 AAC 2.4 (3rd)
2016-17 AAC 2.4 (4th)
Career AAC 4.8 (10th)

Defensive Rating
2015-16 AAC 93.0 (6th)
2016-17 AAC 93.0 (9th)
Career AAC 93.0 (9th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
2015-16 AAC 4.8 (6th)
2016-17 AAC 5.3 (6th)
Career AAC 5.1 (9th)

My lying damn eyes say otherwise.

Does he grab a bunch of rebounds yes
Does he get a bunch of blocks yes
Does get steals yes

Do we give him help against below average post players yes
Does he get destroyed if caught in a switch on a high screen yes

So wouldn't you say the fact Tubby feels he needs defensive help along with the fact that other teams try to get him involved in the pick roll indicate they are not good in these areas.

You see you have to watch the games to get a true feel of what is happening...

And I posted Stats earlier because that is what you respond to...Anyone watching enough games would know KJ is flawed and mostly effective against certain types of players.

But you are quick to respond to KJ's impressive slash line with those same metrics.

Can't have it both ways.

Stats can be totally skewed depending on the team.

Example: If Dedric was playing alongside Joey Dorsey, Probably not going to average double figures in reb. If playing with CDR, less pts.

Example: Taggart could probably put up similar stats on this team.
Dozier, too. They would have to score more. Would get more shots.

To me, shooting pct. is always the best metric.

That depends on who you have around you and where you are on the court.

I swear Dedric takes at least two or three top of the key heaves a game because someone will pass him the ball with 5 seconds on the shot clock and he has no choice but to chuck a 20 footer.

Also, if you are being doubled, it will affect your shooting %, or if there is no post presence it's harder to get open looks from the outside.

And like I noted earlier, KJ would have a 5% fg increase if just one additional shot of his fell every other game.

I don't consider stats a be all end all, but they certainly are a good barometer to begin a conversation.

(03-03-2017 01:26 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:10 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:07 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 01:01 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 12:56 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  Wut?

Weren't you the one throwing around the saying that 90% of teams would trade rosters with us based mostly on the Lawsons...Now you admit he is flawed and a freshman...

Logic jump much?

You say you don't like rice, so I didn't offer you orange juice.

Topic jump yes...Same logic...

KJ flawed player which you now admit...According to you one of the reasons most teams would swap rosters...Why would teams swap rosters when one of the best pieces is a flawed player.

YOU keep calling him "flawed."

He is a frosh who is a really good rebounder, has mettle, acutally distributes well for a big, and really just needs to work on shot selection.

He is lean and part of the issue of being "pushed around" is that he's playing ot of position during decent parts of the game.

Raw talent and ability, his numbers in the OP indicated he is worthy of being included in that company. His numbers are strikingly similar to Dedric's last year, and Dedric is a hell of a player. If KJ can grow as a player, he every easily could be a 16 and 10 guy next year.

I guess if you disparage the players, it's easier to rationalize in favor of the coach.

You see that is where you have it twisted...I am giving an honest opinion of his abilities.

Secondly yes KJ is a freshmen by classification but he has already had his learning bump...I wouldn't expect a second one next year.

The Players are what they are and I don't feel it is their fault they are not put in situations to succeed.

Ultimately it is the coaches job to get in quality players and he failed at that this past year.

What you are trying to do is make the guys who are here more than they are so you can tell your narrative about Tubby being a failure you already played your hand in another thread saying you were pissed at the staff...And it is clear how you are displaying it on here.

(03-03-2017 03:24 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 02:14 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  But you are quick to respond to KJ's impressive slash line with those same metrics.

Can't have it both ways.

I replied to you with numbers because you posted numbers...I have said countless times what KJs visible weaknesses were but you ignore those and keep posting numbers so I combated your numbers with numbers.

You never post anything specific about his game...Only Numbers

Deflect.

YOU chose to rebut some numbers with (I assume) metrics you thought told a better story.

I then used the same metrics that you used to rebut an opinion of yours and you say those metrics aren't reliable.

That's the only point. You want to pick and choose when the metrics YOU first put forth as authority are reliable.

Can't do that.

(03-03-2017 05:07 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  You see that is where you have it twisted...I am giving an honest opinion of his abilities.

Secondly yes KJ is a freshmen by classification but he has already had his learning bump...I wouldn't expect a second one next year.

The Players are what they are and I don't feel it is their fault they are not put in situations to succeed.

Ultimately it is the coaches job to get in quality players and he failed at that this past year.

What you are trying to do is make the guys who are here more than they are so you can tell your narrative about Tubby being a failure you already played your hand in another thread saying you were pissed at the staff...And it is clear how you are displaying it on here.

I'm on the books that I will expect 16 and 10 from him next year with a shooting % of 45.2% (including 35.2% from three).

(03-03-2017 05:07 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  What you are trying to do is make the guys who are here more than they are so you can tell your narrative about Tubby being a failure you already played your hand in another thread saying you were pissed at the staff...And it is clear how you are displaying it on here.

Fake news.

(03-03-2017 05:14 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 05:07 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  What you are trying to do is make the guys who are here more than they are so you can tell your narrative about Tubby being a failure you already played your hand in another thread saying you were pissed at the staff...And it is clear how you are displaying it on here.

Fake news.

Lol...Run Rabbit Run

(03-03-2017 05:23 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 05:14 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 05:07 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  What you are trying to do is make the guys who are here more than they are so you can tell your narrative about Tubby being a failure you already played your hand in another thread saying you were pissed at the staff...And it is clear how you are displaying it on here.

Fake news.

Lol...Run Rabbit Run

You are very Stammers-like.

There is no posts of mine that would point to what you made up.

This sums up my thoughts and I'm sure you know that, but it doesn't fit your (again, Stammers-like accusations) agenda.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-811079-post-141...id14140468

Enjoy the weekend.They are made for Michelob.

(03-03-2017 05:27 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 05:23 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 05:14 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 05:07 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  What you are trying to do is make the guys who are here more than they are so you can tell your narrative about Tubby being a failure you already played your hand in another thread saying you were pissed at the staff...And it is clear how you are displaying it on here.

Fake news.

Lol...Run Rabbit Run

You are very Stammers-like.

There is no posts of mine that would point to what you made up.

This sums up my thoughts and I'm sure you know that, but it doesn't fit your (again, Stammers-like accusations) agenda.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-811079-post-141...id14140468

Enjoy the weekend.They are made for Michelob.

Too Funny...So I pull the I know you are but what am I and you call me Stammers...

You say I tear down players to build up the coach I say you build up players to tear down the coach...Both opinions...But hey Run Rabbit Run.