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jarr Offline
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I've been hearing a lot of "conference season and tourney championships don't mean anything" comments. I disagree, just look at Kansas and other schools, they become a part of your legacy. I think it is even more important for us to be dominating the AAC if we are going to continue to complain about it being a sh*t league. My as well be the tallest midget. I want to win the league tournament next week, Micks record in conference tourneys has not been good in the past.
 
02-28-2017 11:45 PM
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OKIcat Offline
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(02-28-2017 11:45 PM)jarr Wrote:  I've been hearing a lot of "conference season and tourney championships don't mean anything" comments. I disagree, just look at Kansas and other schools, they become a part of your legacy. I think it is even more important for us to be dominating the AAC if we are going to continue to complain about it being a sh*t league. My as well be the tallest midget. I want to win the league tournament next week, Micks record in conference tourneys has not been good in the past.

Well said. It's all a part of building (or sustaining) a great basketball tradition. This was the perfect scenario for UC to take a regular season title. With UCONN, Memphis and Temple all struggling it was a two horse race. While I still believe a Sweet Sixteen would leave most of us feeling pretty good, regular season and conference tournament championships should still matter for elite programs.
 
03-01-2017 08:11 AM
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While a long run in the NCAA would be huge ; a conference tourney championship should be hoped for and cherished more if we get it. We have not won one since 2003-04 and have had only one conference championship in that period.
 
03-01-2017 08:39 AM
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It's definitely important to have a championship culture. Look at Gonzaga--- most on here don't realize it or don't want to admit it, but they are perceived on a national level to be a better program than UC. They have no national titles or final fours and just 2 Elite Eights throughout their history. However, what they have done is win their conference crown nearly every year for the past 20 years. Everyone considers them a "winning" program. Few outside our fan base have that perception of us (see the SI article from a month ago that basically called us the best time you never think about).

Only one team can the Dance-- and throughout history the overwhelming majority of the time the winner has been one of 7-8 schools (UCLA, UK, Duke, Indiana, UNC, Connecticut, Kansas and Louisville). This is not likely to change any time in the near future as those schools have been advantaged even further. This myth that "anyone can win it" is just a myth.
 
03-01-2017 08:47 AM
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(03-01-2017 08:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  It's definitely important to have a championship culture. Look at Gonzaga--- most on here don't realize it or don't want to admit it, but they are perceived on a national level to be a better program than UC. They have no national titles or final fours and just 2 Elite Eights throughout their history. However, what they have done is win their conference crown nearly every year for the past 20 years. Everyone considers them a "winning" program. Few outside our fan base have that perception of us (see the SI article from a month ago that basically called us the best time you never think about).

Only one team can the Dance-- and throughout history the overwhelming majority of the time the winner has been one of 7-8 schools (UCLA, UK, Duke, Indiana, UNC, Connecticut, Kansas and Louisville). This is not likely to change any time in the near future as those schools have been advantaged even further. This myth that "anyone can win it" is just a myth.

05-nono
 
03-01-2017 08:50 AM
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(03-01-2017 08:39 AM)cincybb51 Wrote:  While a long run in the NCAA would be huge ; a conference tourney championship should be hoped for and cherished more if we get it. We have not won one since 2003-04 and have had only one conference championship in that period.

I disagree. I would rather have a NCAA tourney run than an AAC tourney banner. In fact I believe winning two NCAA games is better than an AAC tourney title.

Regularly get to the second weekend and nationally no one cares how the conference tourney went.
 
03-01-2017 08:53 AM
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(03-01-2017 08:50 AM)LetsGoUC Wrote:  
(03-01-2017 08:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  It's definitely important to have a championship culture. Look at Gonzaga--- most on here don't realize it or don't want to admit it, but they are perceived on a national level to be a better program than UC. They have no national titles or final fours and just 2 Elite Eights throughout their history. However, what they have done is win their conference crown nearly every year for the past 20 years. Everyone considers them a "winning" program. Few outside our fan base have that perception of us (see the SI article from a month ago that basically called us the best time you never think about).

Only one team can the Dance-- and throughout history the overwhelming majority of the time the winner has been one of 7-8 schools (UCLA, UK, Duke, Indiana, UNC, Connecticut, Kansas and Louisville). This is not likely to change any time in the near future as those schools have been advantaged even further. This myth that "anyone can win it" is just a myth.

05-nono

Obviously that is the exception to the rule (UConn did win the majority of their crowns under the BE banner and the one they did win was with a BE roster). Barring a change in conference affiliation or a complete overhaul of the system they are likely done winning national crowns for the time being.
 
03-01-2017 08:58 AM
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(03-01-2017 08:53 AM)Bearcat1010 Wrote:  
(03-01-2017 08:39 AM)cincybb51 Wrote:  While a long run in the NCAA would be huge ; a conference tourney championship should be hoped for and cherished more if we get it. We have not won one since 2003-04 and have had only one conference championship in that period.

I disagree. I would rather have a NCAA tourney run than an AAC tourney banner. In fact I believe winning two NCAA games is better than an AAC tourney title.

Regularly get to the second weekend and nationally no one cares how the conference tourney went.

No if I worded it wrong I would also prefer a sweet sixteen over a conference championship. But in a way that is a shame that the regular season is not respected more and season titles can add greatly to national perception as CliftonAVE said. I miss the times when we were either regular season or tournament champion or both 10 or 11 years in a row.
 
03-01-2017 09:11 AM
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Conference titles matter. How you perform over the full year matters. I'd rather win a conference than win one or two extra tournament games. It's why what Huggins accomplished throughout his time at UC is criminally underrated by some. UC kept winning conference titles even as guys like Crean, Pitino and Calipari got involved. One game and out, anything can happen, but the consistency it takes to keep winning conference titles is a big deal. I'd love to see the program get back to dominating a conference like it did for so long. Hell this conference isn't even at the level old CUSA was. We got closer this year, but a great SMU team seems like it is going to do a little more (a Conference tournament title will make up for it some). We need to make this league UC's, like CUSA used to be.
 
03-01-2017 10:05 AM
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(03-01-2017 10:05 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Conference titles matter. How you perform over the full year matters. I'd rather win a conference than win one or two extra tournament games. It's why what Huggins accomplished throughout his time at UC is criminally underrated by some. UC kept winning conference titles even as guys like Crean, Pitino and Calipari got involved. One game and out, anything can happen, but the consistency it takes to keep winning conference titles is a big deal. I'd love to see the program get back to dominating a conference like it did for so long. Hell this conference isn't even at the level old CUSA was. We got closer this year, but a great SMU team seems like it is going to do a little more (a Conference tournament title will make up for it some). We need to make this league UC's, like CUSA used to be.

I agree to a certain extent but UC has already been there and done that. This program has 27 conference titles. I would trade a few of those during the C-USA years for a couple more sweet 16 and elite 8 finishes.

Regular season conference titles used to really mater in the Big Ten and Pac XII. To a certain extend they still do in those conferences and Big XII. The Big East and ACC have always been about the conference tournament and NCAA tournament. The teams in the original C-USA placed some emphasis on wining the regular season and tournament title because it meant knocking off UC and Bog Huggins. I never have felt that way with the American. There isn't longtime conference rival that UC is fighting for conference championships against. UConn and SMU are new rivals to UC and while those are big games I don't know if those schools are fighting for the regular season title the same UC, Louisville, Memphis, Marquette, Charlotte, UAB, DePaul, and company did years ago.

Bottom line, the American isn't what C-USA used to be. It can be if UConn, Memphis, and Temple go back to being tournament level teams. Adding a combination of Wichita State, Dayton, and VCU would provide the league the same thing Marquette, Charlotte, St. Louis, and DePaul brought to C-USA.

Give me a sweet 16 or better over a conference tournament title, give me a conference tournament title over the regular season title. Give me all three if you can but this program needs postseason success. Heck that would even include the old standard of conference tournament title and a round of 32 finish which would be hopefully get UC to 31 wins.
 
03-01-2017 10:35 AM
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(03-01-2017 10:05 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Conference titles matter. How you perform over the full year matters. I'd rather win a conference than win one or two extra tournament games. It's why what Huggins accomplished throughout his time at UC is criminally underrated by some. UC kept winning conference titles even as guys like Crean, Pitino and Calipari got involved. One game and out, anything can happen, but the consistency it takes to keep winning conference titles is a big deal. I'd love to see the program get back to dominating a conference like it did for so long. Hell this conference isn't even at the level old CUSA was. We got closer this year, but a great SMU team seems like it is going to do a little more (a Conference tournament title will make up for it some). We need to make this league UC's, like CUSA used to be.

Winning conference titles only matter as much if the conference is worth winning. As in a P5 conference. Winning a weak 1-2 bid conference will result a collective yawn by most anyone who isn't a UC fan. I believe THAT is why Huggins didn't get the notoriety. Because the C-USA's and GMC were looked down upon. It didn't look like much of a feat to consistently win those conferences. Right wrong or indifferent he was measured by his tournament achievements, because he didn't win P5 titles, only second tier conference titles.

Does it matter more to win a conference title than to make it to the round of 32? Probably. But I'm not so sure it is worth more than making it to the Sweet 16. If you take 2 coaches side by side and one has won a mediocre conference say 8 out of 10 years, but the other has made it to say 5 Sweet 16's in the past 10 years, the second coach will be viewed as more successful. I would imagine if you polled the fans they would prefer the 5 Sweet 16's.

Look no further than our (ahem) friends from across town (XU). In a 10 year span from 2001 -2011 they won 7 conference titles. Do you think anyone (other than their fans) remember or cares about that? No, because it was the A-10. (Even as UC fans we used to laugh at them seemingly getting an automatic bid every year for winning a rinky dink conference). They made their name on a national scale and people took notice because during that same time they went to 4 Sweet 16's and 2 Elite Eights.

Unfortunately, now UC is in that position. Now they just need to make some noise in the tournament.
 
03-01-2017 01:17 PM
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(03-01-2017 01:17 PM)Cat-Man Wrote:  
(03-01-2017 10:05 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Conference titles matter. How you perform over the full year matters. I'd rather win a conference than win one or two extra tournament games. It's why what Huggins accomplished throughout his time at UC is criminally underrated by some. UC kept winning conference titles even as guys like Crean, Pitino and Calipari got involved. One game and out, anything can happen, but the consistency it takes to keep winning conference titles is a big deal. I'd love to see the program get back to dominating a conference like it did for so long. Hell this conference isn't even at the level old CUSA was. We got closer this year, but a great SMU team seems like it is going to do a little more (a Conference tournament title will make up for it some). We need to make this league UC's, like CUSA used to be.

Winning conference titles only matter as much if the conference is worth winning. As in a P5 conference. Winning a weak 1-2 bid conference will result a collective yawn by most anyone who isn't a UC fan. I believe THAT is why Huggins didn't get the notoriety. Because the C-USA's and GMC were looked down upon. It didn't look like much of a feat to consistently win those conferences. Right wrong or indifferent he was measured by his tournament achievements, because he didn't win P5 titles, only second tier conference titles.

Does it matter more to win a conference title than to make it to the round of 32? Probably. But I'm not so sure it is worth more than making it to the Sweet 16. If you take 2 coaches side by side and one has won a mediocre conference say 8 out of 10 years, but the other has made it to say 5 Sweet 16's in the past 10 years, the second coach will be viewed as more successful. I would imagine if you polled the fans they would prefer the 5 Sweet 16's.

Look no further than our (ahem) friends from across town (XU). In a 10 year span from 2001 -2011 they won 7 conference titles. Do you think anyone (other than their fans) remember or cares about that? No, because it was the A-10. (Even as UC fans we used to laugh at them seemingly getting an automatic bid every year for winning a rinky dink conference). They made their name on a national scale and people took notice because during that same time they went to 4 Sweet 16's and 2 Elite Eights.

Unfortunately, now UC is in that position. Now they just need to make some noise in the tournament.

You put down Conference CUSA a little too much. During our time there it normally sent four and once six teams to the NCAA. Remember how many top ten ratings we had during that period so it was not looked down on as much as you think.
 
03-01-2017 01:41 PM
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(03-01-2017 01:17 PM)Cat-Man Wrote:  
(03-01-2017 10:05 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Conference titles matter. How you perform over the full year matters. I'd rather win a conference than win one or two extra tournament games. It's why what Huggins accomplished throughout his time at UC is criminally underrated by some. UC kept winning conference titles even as guys like Crean, Pitino and Calipari got involved. One game and out, anything can happen, but the consistency it takes to keep winning conference titles is a big deal. I'd love to see the program get back to dominating a conference like it did for so long. Hell this conference isn't even at the level old CUSA was. We got closer this year, but a great SMU team seems like it is going to do a little more (a Conference tournament title will make up for it some). We need to make this league UC's, like CUSA used to be.

Winning conference titles only matter as much if the conference is worth winning. As in a P5 conference. Winning a weak 1-2 bid conference will result a collective yawn by most anyone who isn't a UC fan. I believe THAT is why Huggins didn't get the notoriety. Because the C-USA's and GMC were looked down upon. It didn't look like much of a feat to consistently win those conferences. Right wrong or indifferent he was measured by his tournament achievements, because he didn't win P5 titles, only second tier conference titles.

Does it matter more to win a conference title than to make it to the round of 32? Probably. But I'm not so sure it is worth more than making it to the Sweet 16. If you take 2 coaches side by side and one has won a mediocre conference say 8 out of 10 years, but the other has made it to say 5 Sweet 16's in the past 10 years, the second coach will be viewed as more successful. I would imagine if you polled the fans they would prefer the 5 Sweet 16's.

Look no further than our (ahem) friends from across town (XU). In a 10 year span from 2001 -2011 they won 7 conference titles. Do you think anyone (other than their fans) remember or cares about that? No, because it was the A-10. (Even as UC fans we used to laugh at them seemingly getting an automatic bid every year for winning a rinky dink conference). They made their name on a national scale and people took notice because during that same time they went to 4 Sweet 16's and 2 Elite Eights.

Unfortunately, now UC is in that position. Now they just need to make some noise in the tournament.

So true. For me it's a three strike scenario and not winning the regular season title was strike one. Not winning a conference tourney title would be strike two. Not winning a game or two in the NCAA would be...well I'd rather not think about that possibility just yet. Suffice it to say though it would reinforce the belief among many fans that the program has hit a respectable plateau... and can't be counted on to accomplish more.
 
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its sad this conversation is even happening. we should be doing both regularly.

since we're having it, I would have taken a big east title over a sweet sixteen. in the American anything past the first weekend is better than a conference title.
 
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(03-01-2017 01:17 PM)Cat-Man Wrote:  
(03-01-2017 10:05 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Conference titles matter. How you perform over the full year matters. I'd rather win a conference than win one or two extra tournament games. It's why what Huggins accomplished throughout his time at UC is criminally underrated by some. UC kept winning conference titles even as guys like Crean, Pitino and Calipari got involved. One game and out, anything can happen, but the consistency it takes to keep winning conference titles is a big deal. I'd love to see the program get back to dominating a conference like it did for so long. Hell this conference isn't even at the level old CUSA was. We got closer this year, but a great SMU team seems like it is going to do a little more (a Conference tournament title will make up for it some). We need to make this league UC's, like CUSA used to be.

Winning conference titles only matter as much if the conference is worth winning. As in a P5 conference. Winning a weak 1-2 bid conference will result a collective yawn by most anyone who isn't a UC fan. I believe THAT is why Huggins didn't get the notoriety. Because the C-USA's and GMC were looked down upon. It didn't look like much of a feat to consistently win those conferences. Right wrong or indifferent he was measured by his tournament achievements, because he didn't win P5 titles, only second tier conference titles.

Does it matter more to win a conference title than to make it to the round of 32? Probably. But I'm not so sure it is worth more than making it to the Sweet 16. If you take 2 coaches side by side and one has won a mediocre conference say 8 out of 10 years, but the other has made it to say 5 Sweet 16's in the past 10 years, the second coach will be viewed as more successful. I would imagine if you polled the fans they would prefer the 5 Sweet 16's.

Look no further than our (ahem) friends from across town (XU). In a 10 year span from 2001 -2011 they won 7 conference titles. Do you think anyone (other than their fans) remember or cares about that? No, because it was the A-10. (Even as UC fans we used to laugh at them seemingly getting an automatic bid every year for winning a rinky dink conference). They made their name on a national scale and people took notice because during that same time they went to 4 Sweet 16's and 2 Elite Eights.

Unfortunately, now UC is in that position. Now they just need to make some noise in the tournament.

See I disagree. I think Huggins and the UC program got a ton of notoriety during that time. When I say what Huggs accomplished is criminally underrated, I mean by UC fans around here who undervalue the things that make a strong program besides deep NCAA runs. Nationally I think Huggs always got a ton of respect and the UC program was considered a top ten program for most of his time here. During that time UC was regularly put in big time preseason tournaments and got made for TV matchups. This was because they were so dominant in conference and regularly in the top 10-15 nationally.

XU is a good example. It's a program that gets some respect for their runs, but has never been the focal program UC was under Huggins. I thought last year was the first time Xavier was talked about a ton throughout and really reached the conversation in basketball (outside of for a week or 2 during the NCAA tournament) and that's because Xavier was a top 15 type team playing great basketball. Despite Xavier losing early I think that was the best team X has ever had and the one that was the most nationally relevant.
 
03-01-2017 02:41 PM
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I normally just lurk around here, but I thought I'd share some data I pulled on a slow work day that tangentially relates to this thread.

I've been of the opinion for some time now that making a sweet 16 isn't that great of an accomplishment, and making an elite 8 is where real bragging rights come into play. Here's some rudimentary data that I compiled trying to see if this made sense.

I went back the past 10 years and pulled every sweet 16 team. Out of 160 possible spots there have been 70 different teams make the sweet 16 or roughly 44% of the spots were unique. Exactly half (35) of those teams only make the sweet 16 once.

List of the sweet 16 teams are below. Sorted by the number of times the past 10 years that team has made the sweet 16.

Michigan St 7
North Carolina 6
Louisville 6
Kansas 6
Duke 6
Xavier 5
Wisconsin 5
UCLA 5
Ohio State 5
Kentucky 5
Flordia 5
West Virginia 4
Tennessee 4
Memphis 4
Connecticut 4
Wichita State 3
Villanova 3
Syracuse 3
Marquette 3
Butler 3
Baylor 3
Arizona 3
Washington 2
Texas 2
Stanford 2
San Diego State 2
Purdue 2
Pittsburgh 2
Oregon 2
Oklahoma 2
Michigan 2
Indiana 2
Gonzaga 2
Georgetown 2
WKU
West Virgina
Washington St.
Virginia
VCU
Vanderbuilt
Utah
USC
UNLV
Texas A&M
Syracuse
St. Mary's
Southern illinois
Richmond
Ohio U
Notre Dame
Northern Iowa
North Carolina State
NC State
Missouri
Miami (FL)
LSU
La Salle
Kansas State
Iowa State
Gonzaga
George Mason
Florida State
Florida Gulf Coast
Dayton
Davidson
Cornell
Cincinnati
Brigham Young
Bradley
Boston College

I did the same for the elite 8. Out of 80 possible elite 8 spots there have been 37 different teams or roughly 46% of the spots were unique. Of those teams, 19, or roughly 51 % made more than one elite 8.

Flordia 6
Kentucky 5
Louisville 5
North Carolina 5
Connecticut 4
Kansas 4
Michigan St 4
Arizona 3
Duke 3
Memphis 3
Ohio State 3
UCLA 3
Baylor 2
Butler 2
Michigan 2
Syracuse 2
Texas 2
Villanova 2
Wisconsin 2
Davidson
Dayton
George mason
Georgetown
Gonzaga
Kansas State
LSU
Marquette
Missouri
Notre Dame
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pittsburgh
Tennessee
VCU
West Virginia
Wichita State
Xavier

And for the final 4. Out of 40 possible final 4 spots there have been 22 different teams or roughly 55% of the spots were unique. Of those teams, 12, or roughly 54 % made more than one Final 4.

Kentucky 4
Connecticut 3
Flordia 3
Michigan St. 3
UCLA 3
Butler 2
Duke 2
Kansas 2
Louisville 2
North Carolina 2
Ohio State 2
Wisconsin 2
George Mason
Georgetown
LSU
Memphis
Michigan
Syracuse
VCU
Villanova
West Virgina
Wichita State

Ultimately, I think I've changed my mind about making it to the sweet 16. I do think that's a better accomplishment that I was giving it credit for. However, I do think this also shows that college basketball (very much like college football) has a clear upper echelon, which is filling out each of these rounds at a rate of right about 50%. Everyone else is just getting their 15 minutes, and then back to reality.

Unfortunately for UC, as of the past decade, and in terms of tourney success, they're part of also-rans, instead of the elite. Interestingly enough it only takes a couple of tourney runs to put them into that category. I'm hopeful for what the next decade brings!
 
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2017 03:01 PM by horsefeathers.)
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Titles only don't matter to those that don't win them.
 
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Goal should be to win championships every year. Preseason holiday tournaments, AAC regular season or year end tournament and the NCAA Championship. It is a mindset and this team doesn't have it. We settle for our participation trophy by making the NCAA tournament every year and accept our pat on the back for a job well done. Mick should expect and demand more from his players and its on him to get it done. Future looks bright with this roster but it starts now.
GOCATS
 
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You can't play or coach for me if your goal isn't to win championships. If they keeping score I want to win every time.
 
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Somebody post link of mick whining for 2min about tournament seeds being about $$$. Also said maui don't want us back because we don't travel well enough. I wouldn't want you either if you can't make me $$$. I can't post link from my phone but he worth watching.
 
03-01-2017 05:10 PM
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