I only know one Jewish family so I'm not even believing that I know a lot about Jews. My opinion is that because they help each and not so much others to progress may have something to do with it. Unlike the belief that Hispanics try to keep their kind under them Jews will help each other. They don't have the Lobster Syndrome like us.

JMHO

(02-28-2017 02:54 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

Did you notice that most of the men just sat stone faced and perplexed through that and the women were totally into it and going along.

Another reason women should not have the vote.

(02-28-2017 03:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(02-28-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  In two short sentences can someone tell me why people don't like Jews? I never been able to completely understand it......

The answer to your first sentence is "no, it is not remotely possible". The response to the second is quite possibly the same as the first.

There are aspects of Judaism that perhaps make it vulnerable to being the subject of hatred and conspiracy theory. To be Jewish applies to both race/ethnicity (in a complicated way) and to the religion. You have secular Jews in a way that you do not have "secular Muslims" or "secular Christians". In the former, it would apply to an atheist... in the latter, it applies to a believer that just doesn't actively do anything with their religion.

Jews historically congregate in neighborhoods - Eruvs - for practical reasons... since Jews are not allowed to work on the Sabbath, they must be within walking distance of the Temple. The concept of an Eruv is sort of a divine loophole, but it tends to concentrate the Jewish population of a city. Various nations have forced Jews into ghettos for various reasons (mainly discriminatory), but I think this tends to fuel the idea that Jews are conspiratorial. Likewise, the prohibition against marrying someone of another faith tends to lead to isolation. These are limited ways in which Jews self-segregate within broader society, but I think in the case of all groups, self-segregation leads to mistrust, even when the reasons are fundamental to religious faith.

You should not also discount dogmatic reasons for antisemitism. From the HAMAS charter. In spite of the fact that there were many Jews involved in the early civil rights struggle in the south, there seems to be a high level of antisemitism among African Americans. I believe that this comes from the influence of the deeply antisemitic Nation of Islam, and has permeated the broader community. I would expect the partisanship in favor of Palestinians that many leftists hold would similarly lead to broader antisemitism.

Hamas Covenant - Wikipedia

Quote:It quotes a saying of Muhammad from a hadith: "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

It goes back a little further than that. There have been tensions with these two communities dating back to the anti-bellum era.

To summarize, W.E.B Dubois once wrote that "The Jew is the heir of the slave baron". After Emancipation, Jewish merchants were the ones who sold goods and rented living quarters to Blacks in the South and in the North (other whites would not). The natural tensions that rise from landlord and tenant relationships arose. Blacks felt they were overcharged for rent, the rental properties were not kept up and they were overcharged for goods and services in the stores.

This continued into the 20th Century. In the 1930s Black Activists boycotted Jewish Merchants in Harlem due to allegations of discrimination.

(02-28-2017 04:25 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-28-2017 03:51 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(02-28-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  In two short sentences can someone tell me why people don't like Jews? I never been able to completely understand it......

The answer to your first sentence is "no, it is not remotely possible". The response to the second is quite possibly the same as the first.

There are aspects of Judaism that perhaps make it vulnerable to being the subject of hatred and conspiracy theory. To be Jewish applies to both race/ethnicity (in a complicated way) and to the religion. You have secular Jews in a way that you do not have "secular Muslims" or "secular Christians". In the former, it would apply to an atheist... in the latter, it applies to a believer that just doesn't actively do anything with their religion.

Jews historically congregate in neighborhoods - Eruvs - for practical reasons... since Jews are not allowed to work on the Sabbath, they must be within walking distance of the Temple. The concept of an Eruv is sort of a divine loophole, but it tends to concentrate the Jewish population of a city. Various nations have forced Jews into ghettos for various reasons (mainly discriminatory), but I think this tends to fuel the idea that Jews are conspiratorial. Likewise, the prohibition against marrying someone of another faith tends to lead to isolation. These are limited ways in which Jews self-segregate within broader society, but I think in the case of all groups, self-segregation leads to mistrust, even when the reasons are fundamental to religious faith.

You should not also discount dogmatic reasons for antisemitism. From the HAMAS charter. In spite of the fact that there were many Jews involved in the early civil rights struggle in the south, there seems to be a high level of antisemitism among African Americans. I believe that this comes from the influence of the deeply antisemitic Nation of Islam, and has permeated the broader community. I would expect the partisanship in favor of Palestinians that many leftists hold would similarly lead to broader antisemitism.

Hamas Covenant - Wikipedia

Quote:It quotes a saying of Muhammad from a hadith: "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

It goes back a little further than that. There have been tensions with these two communities dating back to the anti-bellum era.

To summarize, W.E.B Dubois once wrote that "The Jew is the heir of the slave baron". After Emancipation, Jewish merchants were the ones who sold goods and rented living quarters to Blacks in the South and in the North (other whites would not). The natural tensions that rise from landlord and tenant relationships arose. Blacks felt they were overcharged for rent, the rental properties were not kept up and they were overcharged for goods and services in the stores.

This continued into the 20th Century. In the 1930s Black Activists boycotted Jewish Merchants in Harlem due to allegations of discrimination.

Interesting stuff. It should be noted that in the case of the Harlem Boycotts, they were led by "The Black Hitler", a Muslim convert (not Nation of Islam, though it looks like he was first and foremost a huckster). Much of the mythology of Jews being behind the slave trade derives from the Nation of Islam book, The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews.

Regarding W.E.B. DuBose, at least one article suggests that his view was much more positive than you portray... W. E. B. Du Bois and Jews: A Lifetime of Opposing Anti-Semitism. Du Bois himself revised his comments later in life...

African American–Jewish relations - Wikipedia

Quote:In 1953, Du Bois revised The Souls of Black Folk for its fiftieth anniversary; it was the only time he changed its text. He made fewer than ten edits, and two of them were to this passage, which he changed from "The Jew is the heir of the slave-baron ... and the Jew fell heir." to "Immigrants are heirs of the slave-baron ... and foreigners fell heir."[18] He explained his changes in a paragraph he asked his publisher to add at the end of the chapter:

In the foregoing chapter, "Jews" have been mentioned five times, and the late Jacob Schiff once complained that this gave an impression of anti-Semitism. This at the time I stoutly denied; but as I read the passages again in the light of subsequent history, I see how I laid myself open to this possible misapprehension. What, of course, I meant to condemn was the exploitation of black labor and that it was in this country and at that time in part a matter of immigrant Jews, was incidental and not essential. My inner sympathy with the Jewish people was expressed better in the last paragraph of page 152. But this illustrates how easily one slips into unconscious condemnation of a whole group.[19]

See The Souls of Black Folk#Textual changes for further information. Jump up ^

(02-28-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  In two short sentences can someone tell me why people don't like Jews? I never been able to completely understand it......

In he unseen spiritual world, the demons hate Jews and Israel and in turn Christ, as they were the path the Lord created to destroy evil, Satan, and demons and bring redemption. It has been playing out for more than 3000 years. Demons have much more influence on human conditions than even religious modernists can fathom.

People forget that Ellison was backed by a Jew named Bernie Sanders.
So, it is Bernie Vs Alan on this one. Alan sides with the establishment while Ellison sides with the Bernie faction.

(02-28-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  In two short sentences can someone tell me why people don't like Jews? I never been able to completely understand it......

Deuteronomy 28:64-66

64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:



I could have posted several other passages, but they all say the same thing : God himself cursed them as punishment for wickedness and rejecting their Messiah. The punishment was to be scattered across the whole earth and be hated almost anywhere they went.

This is why they have been through so much the last 2000 years from the Roman persecution, to the middle age inquisitions all the way up to the holocaust of WW2 and Hitler and even into modern day with the Muslim threat.

Its not an eternal punishment so to speak, because it ends at the 2nd coming.

(02-28-2017 11:53 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-28-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  In two short sentences can someone tell me why people don't like Jews? I never been able to completely understand it......

In he unseen spiritual world, the demons hate Jews and Israel and in turn Christ, as they were the path the Lord created to destroy evil, Satan, and demons and bring redemption. It has been playing out for more than 3000 years. Demons have much more influence on human conditions than even religious modernists can fathom.

The real reasons. The Jews have scrapped against the other peoples in the ME for many thousands of years. While that in and of itself is not THE story, it does help lay the groundwork for why the Jews are viewed negatively by the other semitic peoples who lived in the same areas. But THE defining reason why is laid at the feet of the gospel writers - in particular the gospel of John - who revved up the rhetoric against the Jews to the point that the Romans were meek sheep following the will of the Jews. The gospels were written - in order of Mark, Matt, Luke and John. In each passion narrative, the Romans were given less responsibility of killing Jesus and the Jews were made more of the root cause upon each retelling. Remember, the gospels were not written by eyewitness accounts. Each writer was anonymous and written at a minimum 40 years after the death of Jesus. The gospel narratives are likely not how it really happened but are allegories that were written to reflect the competition between the traditional Jews and the "New Jews" that were following their leader Jesus. Of course while that was going on, the "new Jews" were converting gentiles - Greeks in particular - to the new Jewish offshoot.

In short, the Jews were made the scapegoats because of the competition between the two groups. They weren't taking on the Roman deities at that time, but scrapping over the same group of peoples. Over time, Christianity came to dominate - thanks to Constantine - and by that time the books of the bible were set in stone during the council of Nicea (I think), with all the anti-Jewish writings preserved from the earlier competition. Since Christianity spread like wildfire thanks to the might of the Roman Empire and the emperors following Constantine, people far and wide saw the Jews as Christ Killers. From that point on, it was basically "game over" from a public relations standpoint for the Jews.

That's why the Jews have been despised so long - because of propaganda from a Jewish offshoot that competed with them for converts and power in the Jerusalem area and surrounding communities.

(03-01-2017 04:58 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-28-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  In two short sentences can someone tell me why people don't like Jews? I never been able to completely understand it......

Deuteronomy 28:64-66

64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:



I could have posted several other passages, but they all say the same thing : God himself cursed them as punishment for wickedness and rejecting their Messiah. The punishment was to be scattered across the whole earth and be hated almost anywhere they went.

This is why they have been through so much the last 2000 years from the Roman persecution, to the middle age inquisitions all the way up to the holocaust of WW2 and Hitler and even into modern day with the Muslim threat.

Its not an eternal punishment so to speak, because it ends at the 2nd coming.

A lot of this is post hoc. The Jews were well established in the diaspora before the books of the NT were penned and before the death of Jesus ever happened. What you are actually seeing is propaganda originally intended to compete against the Jews on a smaller scale that later became swept up into a bible after the might of the Roman Empire championed Christianity as the formal religion. Shortly after that, the persecutions began - against anyone who did not become Christian.

(03-01-2017 08:27 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 04:58 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-28-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  In two short sentences can someone tell me why people don't like Jews? I never been able to completely understand it......

Deuteronomy 28:64-66

64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:



I could have posted several other passages, but they all say the same thing : God himself cursed them as punishment for wickedness and rejecting their Messiah. The punishment was to be scattered across the whole earth and be hated almost anywhere they went.

This is why they have been through so much the last 2000 years from the Roman persecution, to the middle age inquisitions all the way up to the holocaust of WW2 and Hitler and even into modern day with the Muslim threat.

Its not an eternal punishment so to speak, because it ends at the 2nd coming.

A lot of this is post hoc. The Jews were well established in the diaspora before the books of the NT were penned and before the death of Jesus ever happened. What you are actually seeing is propaganda originally intended to compete against the Jews on a smaller scale that later became swept up into a bible after the might of the Roman Empire championed Christianity as the formal religion. Shortly after that, the persecutions began - against anyone who did not become Christian.

Actually everything I said was right on the money. The Jews have been under judgment since they fell to Babylon some 600 year before Christ, but the bible makes clear the bigger judgment and dispersal of the Jews across the whole world was when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and sold the Jews into slavery across the whole world.

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


The persecution by the Roman Catholic church was after the destruction of Jerusalem, obviously. Christianity was not married into pagan Rome until the 4th century AD.

(03-01-2017 04:14 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 08:27 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(03-01-2017 04:58 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-28-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  In two short sentences can someone tell me why people don't like Jews? I never been able to completely understand it......

Deuteronomy 28:64-66

64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:



I could have posted several other passages, but they all say the same thing : God himself cursed them as punishment for wickedness and rejecting their Messiah. The punishment was to be scattered across the whole earth and be hated almost anywhere they went.

This is why they have been through so much the last 2000 years from the Roman persecution, to the middle age inquisitions all the way up to the holocaust of WW2 and Hitler and even into modern day with the Muslim threat.

Its not an eternal punishment so to speak, because it ends at the 2nd coming.

A lot of this is post hoc. The Jews were well established in the diaspora before the books of the NT were penned and before the death of Jesus ever happened. What you are actually seeing is propaganda originally intended to compete against the Jews on a smaller scale that later became swept up into a bible after the might of the Roman Empire championed Christianity as the formal religion. Shortly after that, the persecutions began - against anyone who did not become Christian.

Actually everything I said was right on the money. The Jews have been under judgment since they fell to Babylon some 600 year before Christ, but the bible makes clear the bigger judgment and dispersal of the Jews across the whole world was when Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and sold the Jews into slavery across the whole word.

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


The persecution by the Roman Catholic church was after the destruction of Jerusalem, obviously. Christianity was not married into pagan Rome until the 4th century AD.

Shortly after the rebellion was squashed, the first gospel account was written and attributed to Mark. Then the other gospels followed. What was put into the mouth of Jesus in those texts were based on events that already took place. Just like in the book of Daniel when it was written well past the time it tried to represent. The Jews were thoroughly beaten and their temple destroyed; however, the synagogue style of Judaism was born from the destruction of the temple and the Jews continued on. The Jewish plight didn't really start until after Christianity won the lottery and Constantine backed it as the official religion of the empire. Once that happened...Jews, Druids and all other pagans either converted or were treated harshly. The Jews took the special place based on the gospel writings. While it was clear as day that Jesus was killed because he was viewed as a rebel by the Roman governor, the Jews were given the credit of forcing Pilate's hand and making the Roman's look like the meek souls trying every way possible to not kill Jesus. It did not happen that way.

(03-01-2017 04:34 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Shortly after the rebellion was squashed, the first gospel account was written and attributed to Mark. Then the other gospels followed. What was put into the mouth of Jesus in those texts were based on events that already took place. Just like in the book of Daniel when it was written well past the time it tried to represent. The Jews were thoroughly beaten and their temple destroyed; however, the synagogue style of Judaism was born from the destruction of the temple and the Jews continued on. The Jewish plight didn't really start until after Christianity won the lottery and Constantine backed it as the official religion of the empire. Once that happened...Jews, Druids and all other pagans either converted or were treated harshly. The Jews took the special place based on the gospel writings. While it was clear as day that Jesus was killed because he was viewed as a rebel by the Roman governor, the Jews were given the credit of forcing Pilate's hand and making the Roman's look like the meek souls trying every way possible to not kill Jesus. It did not happen that way.

Not much here worth responding to. Just a lot of anti-christian trolling gibberish.

Its believed as many as 1 million Jews were killed in the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD (when the temple & city was destroyed), and many more in the revolt a generation later. Many were eventually sold into slavery across the word throughout the 1st and into the 2nd century.

The worst thing that ever happen to Christianity was its marriage into pagan Rome.The Roman Catholic Church (which became the Holy Roman Empire) tortured and murdered millions of people (both Jew and Gentile) in the middle ages in the name of God.

This did not all play out in justthe revolt in 70ce but in following revolts including 130 CE by Simon bar kokhba. Rome dealt with revolts in the same way as in other parts of the empire. It wasn't unique or unusual treatment of the Jews. Not until Christianity became the official religion did the plight of the Jews truly worsen. They were accused as being the collective who committed deicide. It became a self fulfillng prophesy since the Christians in those times made it so.

(03-02-2017 05:19 PM)miko33 Wrote:  This did not all play out in justthe revolt in 70ce but in following revolts including 130 CE by Simon bar kokhba. Rome dealt with revolts in the same way as in other parts of the empire. It wasn't unique or unusual treatment of the Jews. Not until Christianity became the official religion did the plight of the Jews truly worsen. They were accused as being the collective who committed deicide. It became a self fulfillng prophesy since the Christians in those times made it so.

I think you need to slow down and read, that is exactly what was posted.

Over a million Jews were murdered in siege of Jeruslam in 70 AD and then the revolt a generation later in130 AD and many more were sold into slavery. Rome did not convert to roman Catholicism until the 4th century.

So Rome completely destroyed Israel as a nation and it was wiped off the map for almost 2000 years. Calling it a "self fulfilling prophecy" is just about as stupid as stupid gets.

(03-02-2017 05:55 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 05:19 PM)miko33 Wrote:  This did not all play out in justthe revolt in 70ce but in following revolts including 130 CE by Simon bar kokhba. Rome dealt with revolts in the same way as in other parts of the empire. It wasn't unique or unusual treatment of the Jews. Not until Christianity became the official religion did the plight of the Jews truly worsen. They were accused as being the collective who committed deicide. It became a self fulfillng prophesy since the Christians in those times made it so.

I think you need to slow down and read, that is exactly what was posted.

Over a million Jews were murdered in siege of Jeruslam in 70 AD and then the revolt a generation later in130 AD and many more were sold into slavery. Rome did not convert to roman Catholicism until the 4th century.

So Rome completely destroyed Israel as a nation and it was wiped off the map for almost 2000 years. Calling it a "self fulfilling prophecy" is just about as stupid as stupid gets.

Sure eric. Ignore the fact that the earliest gospel was written shortly after the great revolt circa 66-70 ce, and that much of the gospel predictions were based on events that already occur. Then, the bar kokhba revolt finally shut the Jews out of Jerusalem because the Jews were repeatedly revolting. SOP for the Romans. Don't conflate this with the rancor that the Jews faced from Christians in later centuries into the middle ages and later. The gospels described the jews in very unflattering ways - to the point that the death of Christ was laid squarely at the feet of the jews. That is how the hatred was fomented against the jews in medieval Christian Europe.

It's not my problem that you allow everything to be colored by your POV that you fail to see the obvious history in front of you.

(03-02-2017 10:21 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 05:55 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(03-02-2017 05:19 PM)miko33 Wrote:  This did not all play out in justthe revolt in 70ce but in following revolts including 130 CE by Simon bar kokhba. Rome dealt with revolts in the same way as in other parts of the empire. It wasn't unique or unusual treatment of the Jews. Not until Christianity became the official religion did the plight of the Jews truly worsen. They were accused as being the collective who committed deicide. It became a self fulfillng prophesy since the Christians in those times made it so.

I think you need to slow down and read, that is exactly what was posted.

Over a million Jews were murdered in siege of Jeruslam in 70 AD and then the revolt a generation later in130 AD and many more were sold into slavery. Rome did not convert to roman Catholicism until the 4th century.

So Rome completely destroyed Israel as a nation and it was wiped off the map for almost 2000 years. Calling it a "self fulfilling prophecy" is just about as stupid as stupid gets.

Sure eric. Ignore the fact that the earliest gospel was written shortly after the great revolt circa 66-70 ce, and that much of the gospel predictions were based on events that already occur. Then, the bar kokhba revolt finally shut the Jews out of Jerusalem because the Jews were repeatedly revolting. SOP for the Romans. Don't conflate this with the rancor that the Jews faced from Christians in later centuries into the middle ages and later. The gospels described the jews in very unflattering ways - to the point that the death of Christ was laid squarely at the feet of the jews. That is how the hatred was fomented against the jews in medieval Christian Europe.

It's not my problem that you allow everything to be colored by your POV that you fail to see the obvious history in front of you.

Just strait up trolling.

The age of the gospels has nothing to do with anything I posted and I specifically mentioned the revolts a generation later in the previews posts. Stop being dishonest.

(03-02-2017 10:21 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The gospels described the jews in very unflattering ways - to the point that the death of Christ was laid squarely at the feet of the jews. That is how the hatred was fomented against the jews in medieval Christian Europe.

It's not my problem that you allow everything to be colored by your POV that you fail to see the obvious history in front of you.

You are simply exposing how utterly clueless of what the bible actually says. The fact that the Christ was handed over to Pilot by the Jews does not mean the bible teaches antisemitism. The Jews rejecting and betraying Jesus was wirtten throughout the OT, not just the Gospels. Its all part of His redemptive plan for Jacob and the Gentiles to who come to Christ.


Romans Chapter 11

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

But hey Trump is Hitler.

(03-02-2017 10:41 PM)gdunn Wrote:  But hey Trump is Hitler.

You mean Hitler is Trump.