http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mike-gundy-...05815.html

Mike Gundy's comments raises the question of how many major schools cheat on a regular basis. Something drastic sure happened at Ole Miss around 2009 or so...

I hear CFB fans say "everybody cheats" quite frequently these days...but I don't believe it. I thought I'd ask my favorite board of fans what they thought.

I guess there are different types of cheating.

IMHO every P5 school and some of the G5 schools are cheating. If they are not cheating, they are not doing their job.

The past few years has shown the rewards outweighs the risks/penalty for the act(s). In a nutshell, commit a serious offense and said team makes themselves bowl ineligible (often in a down year), the NCAA may tack on another year, maybe takes back a prior conference championship, reduces a few schollys over a few years, tacks on a fine (which is picked up by a few donors). Bip whop! The athletic department made millions off their success the past few years. Nobody forgets said team won the hardware- despite it being taken away.

(02-27-2017 11:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  IMHO every P5 school and some of the G5 schools are cheating. If they are not cheating, they are not doing their job.

The past few years has shown the rewards outweighs the risks/penalty for the act(s). In a nutshell, commit a serious offense and said team makes themselves bowl ineligible (often in a down year), the NCAA may tack on another year, maybe takes back a prior conference championship, reduces a few schollys over a few years, tacks on a fine (which is picked up by a few donors). Bip whop! The athletic department made millions off their success the past few years. Nobody forgets said team won the hardware- despite it being taken away.

Yep.

We all Know Cam was bought but all we remember is Auburn's natty.

I personally think there are many variables at play and levels of cheating. Basic stuff happens everywhere but I don't think there are as many boosters willing to play that game as some schools compared to others.

For schools willing to pay people like Cam Newton hundreds of thousands of dollars to play I think the list is pretty short as even most p-5 programs wouldn't do that IMO.

I also don't think stuff like the Louisville BB prostitution ring are that common. That takes a coach and administration willing to go the extra mile to get recruits. IT worked and all we remember is the championship, not how they got there.

I think that has been the issue at places like Nebraska who really doesn't' have coaches and boosters willing to do that stuff to win, so they are content with losing those battles. IT takes a certain mentality and I think most of us woudl agree that it's more common in the Southeast than other parts of the country.

If Gundy's theory is, "I got beat only because they were cheating," well, the last sentence of the article linked by the OP pops the needle into that balloon:

Quote:Only one player from that Ole Miss team, offensive tackle Laremy Tunsil, has caught the attention of NCAA investigators (that we know of), so it’d be a pretty big leap to say that the outcome really could have been much different.

Also:

If you're asking me to believe that only the teams or coaches or athletes that get busted are cheating... nope, not gonna believe that.

If you're asking me to believe that only P5 teams cheat, or that only the most successful teams cheat... nope, not gonna believe that either.

As I've said here before, I think it's actually easier to cheat at programs that have less day-to-day scrutiny, just like it would be easier for a student to cheat on an exam if they know there's no proctor or teacher watching them. At the king programs there must be a few dozen reporters, bloggers, fansites, whatever, looking at different aspects of the team obsessively - at the very biggest programs, I bet it's closer to a hundred such people - and we all know examples that show they still find ways to do things "under the table." How much easier must it be to do something "under the table" at a G5 program, or in a sport that has a much lower profile, where there are far fewer people watching you closely.

And taking the exam analogy further - you wouldn't suspect only the A students of cheating, would you? No. I bet experience would show that struggling students desperate for a better grade are at least as likely to cheat on an exam, if not more so.

Do you think CAL is actively involved in cheating?

(02-27-2017 01:00 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If Gundy's theory is, "I got beat only because they were cheating," well, the last sentence of the article linked by the OP pops the needle into that balloon:

Quote:Only one player from that Ole Miss team, offensive tackle Laremy Tunsil, has caught the attention of NCAA investigators (that we know of), so it’d be a pretty big leap to say that the outcome really could have been much different.

Also:

If you're asking me to believe that only the teams or coaches or athletes that get busted are cheating... nope, not gonna believe that.

If you're asking me to believe that only P5 teams cheat, or that only the most successful teams cheat... nope, not gonna believe that either.

As I've said here before, I think it's actually easier to cheat at programs that have less day-to-day scrutiny, just like it would be easier for a student to cheat on an exam if they know there's no proctor or teacher watching them. At the king programs there must be a few dozen reporters, bloggers, fansites, whatever, looking at different aspects of the team obsessively - at the very biggest programs, I bet it's closer to a hundred such people - and we all know examples that show they still find ways to do things "under the table." How much easier must it be to do something "under the table" at a G5 program, or in a sport that has a much lower profile, where there are far fewer people watching you closely.

And taking the exam analogy further - you wouldn't suspect only the A students of cheating, would you? No. I bet experience would show that struggling students desperate for a better grade are at least as likely to cheat on an exam, if not more so.

I am sure cheating goes on at the G5 level; but I do not believe one could do it "under the radar". As an alum of a G5 school, I would argue my alma mater is under constant scrutiny from the local media (in particularly the local newspaper). The Cincinnati Enquirer writes sensational headline after headline about UC. The reason being is that in a pro sports town like Cincinnati-- NFL and MLB are king. Most of the writers are graduates of other schools. They have no qualms about harming the local university**, unlike say in Columbus, Ohio or Tuscaloosa, AL where the college football team is king and there would be serious repercussions if a media members goes on full frontal attack.

** Most recent example, the Enquirer took UC to task for paying Luke Fickell 3x more than the newly hired president of the university. There was no mention of the fact that Ohio State pays their football coach 6x what they pay their university president or that basically every university is paying their football coach more than their president.

(02-27-2017 01:05 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 01:00 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If Gundy's theory is, "I got beat only because they were cheating," well, the last sentence of the article linked by the OP pops the needle into that balloon:

Quote:Only one player from that Ole Miss team, offensive tackle Laremy Tunsil, has caught the attention of NCAA investigators (that we know of), so it’d be a pretty big leap to say that the outcome really could have been much different.

Also:

If you're asking me to believe that only the teams or coaches or athletes that get busted are cheating... nope, not gonna believe that.

If you're asking me to believe that only P5 teams cheat, or that only the most successful teams cheat... nope, not gonna believe that either.

As I've said here before, I think it's actually easier to cheat at programs that have less day-to-day scrutiny, just like it would be easier for a student to cheat on an exam if they know there's no proctor or teacher watching them. At the king programs there must be a few dozen reporters, bloggers, fansites, whatever, looking at different aspects of the team obsessively - at the very biggest programs, I bet it's closer to a hundred such people - and we all know examples that show they still find ways to do things "under the table." How much easier must it be to do something "under the table" at a G5 program, or in a sport that has a much lower profile, where there are far fewer people watching you closely.

And taking the exam analogy further - you wouldn't suspect only the A students of cheating, would you? No. I bet experience would show that struggling students desperate for a better grade are at least as likely to cheat on an exam, if not more so.

I am sure cheating goes on at the G5 level; but I do not believe one could do it "under the radar". As an alum of a G5 school, I would argue my alma mater is under constant scrutiny from the local media (in particularly the local newspaper). The Cincinnati Enquirer writes sensational headline after headline about UC. The reason being is that in a pro sports town like Cincinnati-- NFL and MLB are king. Most of the writers are graduates of other schools. They have no qualms about harming the local university**, unlike say in Columbus, Ohio or Tuscaloosa, AL where the college football team is king and there would be serious repercussions if a media members goes on full frontal attack.

** Most recent example, the Enquirer took UC to task for paying Luke Fickell 3x more than the newly hired president of the university. There was no mention of the fact that Ohio State pays their football coach 6x what they pay their university president or that basically every university is paying their football coach more than their president.

That's not cheating, though. That's just criticism of perfectly legal decisions. Excessively harsh criticism, for sure. But it's not really scrutiny, it's kind of lazy commentary on readily-available information that took no effort to uncover.

I'm sure Cincinnati gets much more attention from media and fan sites than, say, the MAC programs in Ohio, but not nearly as much as Ohio State gets, including plenty of attention from fans of rival schools who would love to find dirt on the Buckeyes, and even that much scrutiny didn't stop the Tressel/tattoo shenanigans from happening and not coming to light until more than a year later.

There are only 2 kinds, the caught and the uncaught.

(02-27-2017 01:50 PM)shere khan Wrote:  There are only 2 kinds, the caught and the uncaught.

I just don't really think the average ISU, KU, Cal, Northwestern, BC school is paying players large sums of money and has boosters deeply involved with such.

They may get a $100-500 handshake or some other small benefit but these are not situations where thousands of dollars per player is being spent on such.

I don't think Virginia gives away Escalades to players families. Don't think Indiana is buying prostitutes for FB players.

I think most schools prefer to stay out of that stuff for the most part and even to the point of hurting the program in places like Nebraska who I do not believe is in any sort of pay for play situation or giving cars to kids at this point.

It takes a certain kind of mentality among leadership and fans to do that kind of stuff and not every school has it and not every coach has it.

Finding your school's Hugh Freeze or Gene Chizik is like catching lightning in a bottle. Full cooperation from the school, coaches, and boosters all working toward a common goal is an amazing thing.

(02-27-2017 11:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  IMHO every P5 school and some of the G5 schools are cheating. If they are not cheating, they are not doing their job.

There is some level of rules violation going on at almost every school. P5, G5, FCS and even the lower divisions. One of the kids I used to coach told me once that boosters gave them "walking around money" every couple of weeks at the DII school he played for. Now it was just a couple hundred dollars or so for them to be able to go out to eat, put gas in their car, etc. but it's still a violation. He said that they also got significant discounts at various establishments around the area. Also a violation.

I highly doubt that the service academies are cheating because of the types of student-athletes they are recruiting and the commitment involved in going there, but I feel fairly confident that there is some kind of violation everywhere else. I also believe that in the overwhelming majority of the cases that it's booster initiated and ran with absolutely no involvement of the coaching or athletics staff, and it's kept fairly small so as to avoid drawing attention of investigators, the press, or both. If you think about the cases that have been uncovered it's almost never anything small and it usually involves either a coach or athletics dept staff. JRSec has talked before about the code of "honor" among schools and I honestly believe it. Everybody overlooks the minor stuff because they know they have their own dirt, but when someone crosses the line to excess all bets are off.

(02-27-2017 12:10 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 11:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  IMHO every P5 school and some of the G5 schools are cheating. If they are not cheating, they are not doing their job.

The past few years has shown the rewards outweighs the risks/penalty for the act(s). In a nutshell, commit a serious offense and said team makes themselves bowl ineligible (often in a down year), the NCAA may tack on another year, maybe takes back a prior conference championship, reduces a few schollys over a few years, tacks on a fine (which is picked up by a few donors). Bip whop! The athletic department made millions off their success the past few years. Nobody forgets said team won the hardware- despite it being taken away.

Yep.

We all Know Cam was bought but all we remember is Auburn's natty.

I personally think there are many variables at play and levels of cheating. Basic stuff happens everywhere but I don't think there are as many boosters willing to play that game as some schools compared to others.

For schools willing to pay people like Cam Newton hundreds of thousands of dollars to play I think the list is pretty short as even most p-5 programs wouldn't do that IMO.

I also don't think stuff like the Louisville BB prostitution ring are that common. That takes a coach and administration willing to go the extra mile to get recruits. IT worked and all we remember is the championship, not how they got there.

I think that has been the issue at places like Nebraska who really doesn't' have coaches and boosters willing to do that stuff to win, so they are content with losing those battles. IT takes a certain mentality and I think most of us woudl agree that it's more common in the Southeast than other parts of the country.

No you don't. The former FBI agent hired to investigate it found no indication of the alleged payout. Mullen sent him to Blinn while still working for Urban at Florida. The next year Mullen took the Miss St. job. Cam's father was told he could get money from Miss State. It was two former Alabama players working as agents that started the whole story. And Saban and Alabama found it very convenient that it broke the week before Alabama played Auburn in Tuscaloosa for the West Division championship. Mullen was just ticked that Cam wouldn't be headed his way. So there is no proof that Auburn did anything inappropriate with regards to Newton.

Auburn has been guilty of it in the past, as has every SEC, SWC, Big 8, and ACC program who recruited the Southeast with the following exceptions: Georgia Tech under Bill Curry, Duke prior to Cutcliffe and there is no indication he's cheated either, and Vanderbilt before Franklin. I found violations in 5 Southeastern states. Violations stemmed from trivial trinkets for family members, violations of being present in homes on signing day, to payola, ringers to take entrance exams, to cars. And most of it would be considered to be amateurish compared to the level of alleged involvement of boosters, some state officials in the procurement of jobs for family members, and the roundabout ways the money changes hands today. There's not as many of those handshakes as there once was because they are to visible. The truly sad part is that it is not all coordinated by coaches. Many boosters engage in it just to feel important. The Machiavellian aspects are there too.

There is now a whole new etiquette between SEC schools surrounding recruitment. If one of our schools catches another they let them know. If the school drops the recruitment of the player in question nobody gets turned in (Ever wondered how flips occur? Hello!). If they don't, well that's a whole other matter. Ole Miss was reckless and got burned, but by a fire that they started. So be it. As an Auburn fan I just worry about how truly savvy old Gus is. Apparently Freeze was not too swift at all!

(02-27-2017 09:15 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 12:10 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 11:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  IMHO every P5 school and some of the G5 schools are cheating. If they are not cheating, they are not doing their job.

The past few years has shown the rewards outweighs the risks/penalty for the act(s). In a nutshell, commit a serious offense and said team makes themselves bowl ineligible (often in a down year), the NCAA may tack on another year, maybe takes back a prior conference championship, reduces a few schollys over a few years, tacks on a fine (which is picked up by a few donors). Bip whop! The athletic department made millions off their success the past few years. Nobody forgets said team won the hardware- despite it being taken away.

Yep.

We all Know Cam was bought but all we remember is Auburn's natty.

I personally think there are many variables at play and levels of cheating. Basic stuff happens everywhere but I don't think there are as many boosters willing to play that game as some schools compared to others.

For schools willing to pay people like Cam Newton hundreds of thousands of dollars to play I think the list is pretty short as even most p-5 programs wouldn't do that IMO.

I also don't think stuff like the Louisville BB prostitution ring are that common. That takes a coach and administration willing to go the extra mile to get recruits. IT worked and all we remember is the championship, not how they got there.

I think that has been the issue at places like Nebraska who really doesn't' have coaches and boosters willing to do that stuff to win, so they are content with losing those battles. IT takes a certain mentality and I think most of us woudl agree that it's more common in the Southeast than other parts of the country.

No you don't. The former FBI agent hired to investigate it found no indication of the alleged payout. Mullen sent him to Blinn while still working for Urban at Florida. The next year Mullen took the Miss St. job. Cam's father was told he could get money from Miss State. It was two former Alabama players working as agents that started the whole story. And Saban and Alabama found it very convenient that it broke the week before Alabama played Auburn in Tuscaloosa for the West Division championship. Mullen was just ticked that Cam wouldn't be headed his way. So there is no proof that Auburn did anything inappropriate with regards to Newton.

Auburn has been guilty of it in the past, as has every SEC, SWC, Big 8, and ACC program who recruited the Southeast with the following exceptions: Georgia Tech under Bill Curry, Duke prior to Cutcliffe and there is no indication he's cheated either, and Vanderbilt before Franklin. I found violations in 5 Southeastern states. Violations stemmed from trivial trinkets for family members, violations of being present in homes on signing day, to payola, ringers to take entrance exams, to cars. And most of it would be considered to be amateurish compared to the level of alleged involvement of boosters, some state officials in the procurement of jobs for family members, and the roundabout ways the money changes hands today. There's not as many of those handshakes as there once was because they are to visible. The truly sad part is that it is not all coordinated by coaches. Many boosters engage in it just to feel important. The Machiavellian aspects are there too.

There is now a whole new etiquette between SEC schools surrounding recruitment. If one of our schools catches another they let them know. If the school drops the recruitment of the player in question nobody gets turned in (Ever wondered how flips occur? Hello!). If they don't, well that's a whole other matter. Ole Miss was reckless and got burned, but by a fire that they started. So be it. As an Auburn fan I just worry about how truly savvy old Gus is. Apparently Freeze was not too swift at all!

LOL. If you say so. I personally believe he was bought but I also believe OJ was guilty but he got off in court. YOu're certainly entitled to your opinion as well.


I think i've ready your "SEC eiquite" comments at least a dozen times by now in various threads on various boards. Makes sense.

(02-27-2017 01:00 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If Gundy's theory is, "I got beat only because they were cheating," well, the last sentence of the article linked by the OP pops the needle into that balloon:

Quote:Only one player from that Ole Miss team, offensive tackle Laremy Tunsil, has caught the attention of NCAA investigators (that we know of), so it’d be a pretty big leap to say that the outcome really could have been much different.

Also:

If you're asking me to believe that only the teams or coaches or athletes that get busted are cheating... nope, not gonna believe that.

If you're asking me to believe that only P5 teams cheat, or that only the most successful teams cheat... nope, not gonna believe that either.

As I've said here before, I think it's actually easier to cheat at programs that have less day-to-day scrutiny, just like it would be easier for a student to cheat on an exam if they know there's no proctor or teacher watching them. At the king programs there must be a few dozen reporters, bloggers, fansites, whatever, looking at different aspects of the team obsessively - at the very biggest programs, I bet it's closer to a hundred such people - and we all know examples that show they still find ways to do things "under the table." How much easier must it be to do something "under the table" at a G5 program, or in a sport that has a much lower profile, where there are far fewer people watching you closely.

And taking the exam analogy further - you wouldn't suspect only the A students of cheating, would you? No. I bet experience would show that struggling students desperate for a better grade are at least as likely to cheat on an exam, if not more so.

Do you think Cal is actively involved in cheating, paying players, fixing grades, buying cars, etc?

I guess the answer to the question is what your definition of getting paid through boosters is?

Do you consider an envelope with a few hundred dollars getting paid? Then every FBS school has multiple kids getting paid.

Or is your definition more along the lines of 10's of thousands of dollars in either goods (cars, houses, etc.) Or cash being paid through boosters to players? At that level I would say only 10-15 P5 schools and maybe 1 or 2 g schools are at that level.

I know numerous guys who were offered small amounts of money (100-200$) playing college football and basketball. I have heard rumors of bigger $$$ but I have no hard evidence of it.

All of it is wrong but it kind of goes with the territory, I think you would have to be pretty naive to think you don't have kids getting small amounts of money at your schools. It's a multi billion dollar industry where the coaches get paid millions, the schools make millions, and the schools recieve an immeasurable amount exposure and clout from success on the field. At least a little of that money finds its way into those kids hands.

I feel it was a much bigger practice 20-30 years ago. Today with social media and 24/7 sports coverage, it's more challenging to get away with. People begin asking questions when some inner city athlete rolls onto campus driving a new $50,000 Beamer. I say it still exists, but isn't as rampant.

I don't think it is possible to police the thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, of boosters that every school has. With the volumes of NCAA rules and regulations, every school likely has some violations. Many schools self-report violations. The real problem is when schools know about the violations and don't do anything about it or, even worse, condone or support the behavior.

As the UNC scandal showed the most rampant cheating going on in College today is simply trying to keep these kids Academically eligible.
In any random year you could have 50% + of any given Football or Basketball roster that would not be academically qualified to attend the school they are at without special Academic review boards for their admission and god knows some carefully crafted curriculums to keep them eligible. It is a damn shame since 95% of these kids never go pro. Big money only goes to a few key players and schools turn the other way when sports agents come sniffing around which they do to sign players in advance before they turn pro and in the process funnel money to their parents, girlfriend, preacher or whatever random person associated with the star athlete. Booster handshakes to give these kids walk around money is common and it is hard not to like these kids as you get to know them. If they swing by a tailgate bbq after the game a booster with some cash and a slight buzz has no problem handing them a couple hundred dollars.