If you have (in some order) Isaiah Johnson, Jaaron Simmons, Marcus Keene and Jimmy Hall as first team All-MAC ....

Who is No. 5???

Blake Hamilton or Thomas Wilder

Or ...

Who of the four do you leave off

It's Steve Taylor. 21 double/ doubles this season. No other player in the conference is even close to that.

Blake Hamilton is sixth in the league in scoring, fifth in assists and 11th in rebounding...He is the most well-rounded player of Taylor and Wilder

(02-26-2017 10:50 AM)utpotts Wrote:  It's Steve Taylor. 21 double/ doubles this season. No other player in the conference is even close to that.

Ranked #3 nationally in rebounds and double/doubles. 3.7 assists per game and shooting 53% from the field.

To me Wilder is POY. Without him Western would be battling Miami for 11th place. Plus, he's the best crunch time one on one scorer in the league and one of the better iso defenders when you need a turnover or defensive play.

Big Dog gets the nod as the best player on the best team, but I don't think he is head and shoulders better than any of the other top 10 guys in the league.

Hamilton is a good all around player on one of the better teams in the league but I can't see arguing that he needs to be a 1st teamer.

Jonjon Williams has the stats to be 1st team and is one of the top 5 when he is on, but has been too inconsistent and prob slides to 2nd team.

Keene and Taylor should both be 1st team if you apply the same stats and eye test logic. Both are unstoppable in stretches (can be sloppy in others) and have nationally significant stats. To say Keene must be 1st team because his scoring avg is great means Taylor must be 1st team because his rebounding and double double numbers are great.

Simmons is consistently good and has had some excellent senior year games when OU really needed them. He plays on the 2nd best team. So, prob gotta go with him as a 1st teamer even though I personally don't think his game is clearly top 5.

Hall can be great. I've watched him be just OK in some important games so he's sort of like a Jonjon Williams to me. For whatever reason though people seem to assume he's a top 3 guy in the league so will likely get 1st team.

I think Antino Jackson is a 2nd teamer and nearly as important to Akron as Big Dog. The zips would lose a lot of versatility without him. Other huge role players that don't have all-mac stats but influence games big time are Gavin Block of OU, Jordan Lauf of Toledo, Tim Bond of EMU. Franko House at Ball St

And I'm surprised JT4 isn't on many lists. I see him as a 2nd teamer but curious that he's fallen out of favor. He's a better player than last season but his team is struggling.

(02-26-2017 05:48 PM)pono Wrote:  To me Wilder is POY. Without him Western would be battling Miami for 11th place. Plus, he's the best crunch time one on one scorer in the league and one of the better iso defenders when you need a turnover or defensive play.

Big Dog gets the nod as the best player on the best team, but I don't think he is head and shoulders better than any of the other top 10 guys in the league.

Hamilton is a good all around player on one of the better teams in the league but I can't see arguing that he needs to be a 1st teamer.

Jonjon Williams has the stats to be 1st team and is one of the top 5 when he is on, but has been too inconsistent and prob slides to 2nd team.

Keene and Taylor should both be 1st team if you apply the same stats and eye test logic. Both are unstoppable in stretches (can be sloppy in others) and have nationally significant stats. To say Keene must be 1st team because his scoring avg is great means Taylor must be 1st team because his rebounding and double double numbers are great.

Simmons is consistently good and has had some excellent senior year games when OU really needed them. He plays on the 2nd best team. So, prob gotta go with him as a 1st teamer even though I personally don't think his game is clearly top 5.

Hall can be great. I've watched him be just OK in some important games so he's sort of like a Jonjon Williams to me. For whatever reason though people seem to assume he's a top 3 guy in the league so will likely get 1st team.

I think Antino Jackson is a 2nd teamer and nearly as important to Akron as Big Dog. The zips would lose a lot of versatility without him. Other huge role players that don't have all-mac stats but influence games big time are Gavin Block of OU, Jordan Lauf of Toledo, Tim Bond of EMU. Franko House at Ball St

And I'm surprised JT4 isn't on many lists. I see him as a 2nd teamer but curious that he's fallen out of favor. He's a better player than last season but his team is struggling.

SERIOUS QUESTION ... How much should team accomplishment factor into individual award?

Wilder, Taylor, Keene, Williams in particular

....

(02-26-2017 05:48 PM)pono Wrote:  Simmons is consistently good and has had some excellent senior year games when OU really needed them. He plays on the 2nd best team. So, prob gotta go with him as a 1st teamer even though I personally don't think his game is clearly top 5....

to clarify, Simmons is just a junior. In conference play he ranks 7th in scoring (17.8pts/gm) and 1st in assists (6.3). Unquestioned leader on and off the court, Simmons is the best PG in the MAC.

Big Dog is going to win MAC POY and honestly I don't expect voting to be close.

(02-26-2017 10:58 AM)BullBoy Wrote:  Blake Hamilton is sixth in the league in scoring, fifth in assists and 11th in rebounding...He is the most well-rounded player of Taylor and Wilder

Not sure how you quantify this but say we add up Hamilton's MAC places in those three areas: 11+5+6=22

Taylor: 11 in scoring, 1 in rebounding and 9 in assists. If those are your standards Taylor gets a 21 to Hamilton's 22.

(02-26-2017 09:18 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  Big Dog is going to win MAC POY and honestly I don't expect voting to be close.

players with multiple Player of the Week awards-

5- Keene, CMU
4- Hall, Kent St
3- Campbell, Ohio
3- Johnson, Akron
2- Taylor, Toledo
2- Williams, Toledo


you should recalibrate your expectations.

(02-26-2017 10:50 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:18 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  Big Dog is going to win MAC POY and honestly I don't expect voting to be close.

players with multiple Player of the Week awards-

5- Keene, CMU
4- Hall, Kent St
3- Campbell, Ohio
3- Johnson, Akron
2- Taylor, Toledo
2- Williams, Toledo


you should recalibrate your expectations.

Time shall tell. I'd like Keene's chances a lot better if not for the fact CMU would be the #11 seed if the tournament started today.

(02-26-2017 08:59 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  ....

(02-26-2017 05:48 PM)pono Wrote:  Simmons is consistently good and has had some excellent senior year games when OU really needed them. He plays on the 2nd best team. So, prob gotta go with him as a 1st teamer even though I personally don't think his game is clearly top 5....

to clarify, Simmons is just a junior. In conference play he ranks 7th in scoring (17.8pts/gm) and 1st in assists (6.3). Unquestioned leader on and off the court, Simmons is the best PG in the MAC.

wow, he's like kareem hunt in football-never graduates (hunt's back next year, btw).

i would take wilder over simmons at pg. simmons is good but wilder is better. and the stats add it up. wilder has a better fg% 3pt fg% ff%, scores more points a game, gets more steals, and has a better asst-TO ratio (although simmons dishes out many more assists-he is 2nd in the league in turnovers to Keene's astronomical 4.7 pg), both have similar rebounding numbers and, imo, wilder is tougher on defense (although he doesn't always lock in). with wilder WMU has a good shot at top 4 and MAC tourney bye even though they don't have another top 25 MAC player. while simmons is crucial to OU's success as the likely #2 team in the league he does have guys like dartis, block, kaminski, carter and for 1/2 yr campbell around him which is a more experienced and accomplished core than surround Wilder at WMU.

I would wager thhat none of the voters are doing the kind of in depth analysis seen on this thread to determine their choices.

(02-27-2017 07:40 AM)hilltopper Wrote:  I would wager thhat none of the voters are doing the kind of in depth analysis seen on this thread to determine their choices.

Probably not ... coaches pick the All-MAC teams

But do coaches pick the POY? I thought the media did?

As much as I don't like the guy, I would argue Jimmy Hall is playing the best basketball of anyone right now and could be POTY candidate.

So Jimmy Hall vs Isaiah Johnson -

Points - Hall 18.3 - Johnson 16.6
Rebounds - Hall 6.2 - Johnson 4.5
Blocks - Hall 1.2 - Johnson 0.8
Assists - Johnson 3.0 - Hall 2.5
Minutes - Hall 32.1 - Johnson 29.6

Johnson's 62% shooting may be the difference maker for me. I thought it was lame that Johnson was 1st team MAC last year, playing just 25 minutes per game.

But if I were voting, I can't pass up on 29 points per game

(02-27-2017 10:02 AM)Slinkin Street Flash Wrote:  So Jimmy Hall vs Isaiah Johnson -

Points - Hall 18.3 - Johnson 16.6
Rebounds - Hall 6.2 - Johnson 4.5
Blocks - Hall 1.2 - Johnson 0.8
Assists - Johnson 3.0 - Hall 2.5
Minutes - Hall 32.1 - Johnson 29.6

Johnson's 62% shooting may be the difference maker for me. I thought it was lame that Johnson was 1st team MAC last year, playing just 25 minutes per game.

But if I were voting, I can't pass up on 29 points per game

Rebounds: Hall is 10.3, Johnson is 7.4. overall; 9.6 to 8.0 in MAC only games.

They have sometimes simply given it to the leading, more experienced player on the #1 team. If they do that, Johnson would be the choice. I don't think he would be the choice if it were purely "who is the best player in the league this year?". He is the best in the conference when he gets the ball on the low block consistently. If he can do that, Akron wins. But he has too many limitations to his game. He is a defensive liability when the game is at all uptempo, and the free throw shooting remains an issue in end of game situations.

But, again, they sometimes simply look at the leading offensive player on the first place team. It all depends on how the voters want to define the award.

(02-26-2017 10:50 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:18 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  Big Dog is going to win MAC POY and honestly I don't expect voting to be close.

players with multiple Player of the Week awards-

5- Keene, CMU
4- Hall, Kent St
3- Campbell, Ohio
3- Johnson, Akron
2- Taylor, Toledo
2- Williams, Toledo


you should recalibrate your expectations.

He shouldn't need to recalibrate. It's what the MAC media does. Isaiah Johnson is the best player on the best team. It doesn't matter that he's not the best player in the league. It's how you end up with guys like DeAndre Haynes, Romeo Travis, Al Fisher and Justin Greene winning the award. And they don't even pay attention to the West so you can eliminate Keene, Wilder and Taylor (1 of last 12 has gone to a player from the West).