(02-26-2017 11:27 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:22 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  When was the last time you guys were in a high school? There are tons of vocational training tracks. There is also a great deal of coordination between community / trade colleges and the high schools. There is a new fire / emergency services program at our local school. There are medical services, food services, construction, agriculture and business trade programs. At the middle school level we go on a field trip every year to our local community college to share with students just how many options other that the traditional 4 year college track. Students take interest and aptitude tests and surveys to try and get them thinking about their future. The problem is student apathy. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I graduated from HS 11 years ago. We had 0 vocational classes. Kids could go to the career center for half the day to learn a trade, but only a handful of kids from my school actually did that. I think more would have participated if those classes existed on campus rather than a different campus 15 miles away.

That is odd. I would say that your high school would be the exception rather than the rule. You mean there were literally no welding, brick masonry, food services, carpentry and agriculture classes at your school? Where did you go to school?

(02-26-2017 11:56 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:27 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:22 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  When was the last time you guys were in a high school? There are tons of vocational training tracks. There is also a great deal of coordination between community / trade colleges and the high schools. There is a new fire / emergency services program at our local school. There are medical services, food services, construction, agriculture and business trade programs. At the middle school level we go on a field trip every year to our local community college to share with students just how many options other that the traditional 4 year college track. Students take interest and aptitude tests and surveys to try and get them thinking about their future. The problem is student apathy. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I graduated from HS 11 years ago. We had 0 vocational classes. Kids could go to the career center for half the day to learn a trade, but only a handful of kids from my school actually did that. I think more would have participated if those classes existed on campus rather than a different campus 15 miles away.

That is odd. I would say that your high school would be the exception rather than the rule. You mean there were literally no welding, brick masonry, food services, carpentry and agriculture classes at your school? Where did you go to school?

All of those classes were at the career center, which served the whole county. I think it is called something else now.

I went to Weddington High School in Union County.

(02-26-2017 11:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  What jobs are these illegal immigrants taking? More importantly, what jobs are they taking that anyone on this message board would be willing to take?

It's not like these people are taking 6 figure admin positions guys, let's be real here.

plenty of Americans are willing to do construction but the influx of illegals have driven and kept wages down. plus there are so many here that in many areas yiu dont HAVE TO hire Americans. It's a catch 22, not a simple as they just wont did the work. I've been there.

(02-26-2017 12:02 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  What jobs are these illegal immigrants taking? More importantly, what jobs are they taking that anyone on this message board would be willing to take?

It's not like these people are taking 6 figure admin positions guys, let's be real here.

plenty of Americans are willing to do construction but the influx of illegals have driven and kept wages down. It's a catch 22, not a simple as they just wont did the work. I've been there.

Here's the problem, without foreign workers, construction will be more expensive and there will be less demand for it.

AND there will be less demand for construction because there will be fewer people. Migrants buy houses, rent apartments, buy goods too.

(02-26-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:02 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  What jobs are these illegal immigrants taking? More importantly, what jobs are they taking that anyone on this message board would be willing to take?

It's not like these people are taking 6 figure admin positions guys, let's be real here.

plenty of Americans are willing to do construction but the influx of illegals have driven and kept wages down. It's a catch 22, not a simple as they just wont did the work. I've been there.

Here's the problem, without foreign workers, construction will be more expensive and there will be less demand for it.

AND there will be less demand for construction because there will be fewer people. Migrants buy houses, rent apartments, buy goods too.

Indeed a catch-22 then. We can't simply allow illegal immigration to happen, I agree with that aspect of the right, but to simply round them up and toss them out is bordering on a human rights violation at best, and extremely economically short sighted at worst.

(02-26-2017 12:09 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:02 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  What jobs are these illegal immigrants taking? More importantly, what jobs are they taking that anyone on this message board would be willing to take?

It's not like these people are taking 6 figure admin positions guys, let's be real here.

plenty of Americans are willing to do construction but the influx of illegals have driven and kept wages down. It's a catch 22, not a simple as they just wont did the work. I've been there.

Here's the problem, without foreign workers, construction will be more expensive and there will be less demand for it.

AND there will be less demand for construction because there will be fewer people. Migrants buy houses, rent apartments, buy goods too.

Indeed a catch-22 then. We can't simply allow illegal immigration to happen, I agree with that aspect of the right, but to simply round them up and toss them out is bordering on a human rights violation at best, and extremely economically short sighted at worst.

Houston, Dallas, and Pheonix among other cities would be devastated economically by this. There'd be massive job losses and it would impact native born US citizens too.

Maybe this isn't typical but I have a relative that builds high end homes on the NC coast. He told me many years ago that he used Mexican labor out of necessity. When the market was booming native white and black workers would walk off the job whenever some other contractor drove up to a job site and offered them a quarter more an hour. When the market was down many would rather draw unemployment or would want you to pay them under that table while they continued to draw unemployment. Then there was the drug and alcohol issue. Many of the white guys were on meth and the black guys were on crack, and everybody was drunk on Monday morning and either didn't show up or were totally worthless that day. That was a while back, now the heroin and oxy epidemic has overtaken crack and meth. With Mexican workers he gets skilled labor that show up on time and put in a hard days work every day. It isn't that he can reduce his labor costs in the sense that he pays them less that he would pay a native worker. It is that he reduces his labor costs because he has a more productive, reliable labor source.

(02-26-2017 10:24 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:48 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  There are plenty of unfilled jobs. The problem is not a lack of jobs but rather a lack of skills and talent to fill the jobs that are available.

so how do we get enough Anericans qualified for these jobs? the cost of a 4 year degree is through the roof right now. I think we need to push tech skills / trades much harder than we are.

Universal free education through the college Bachelors level paid with sin taxes, luxury taxes, entertainment taxes and pollution taxes.

(02-26-2017 12:35 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 10:24 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:48 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  There are plenty of unfilled jobs. The problem is not a lack of jobs but rather a lack of skills and talent to fill the jobs that are available.

so how do we get enough Anericans qualified for these jobs? the cost of a 4 year degree is through the roof right now. I think we need to push tech skills / trades much harder than we are.

Universal free education through the college Bachelors level paid with sin taxes, luxury taxes, entertainment taxes and pollution taxes.

You do realize that everything tagged as universal and free ends up being crappy and expensive?

(02-26-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:02 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  What jobs are these illegal immigrants taking? More importantly, what jobs are they taking that anyone on this message board would be willing to take?

It's not like these people are taking 6 figure admin positions guys, let's be real here.

plenty of Americans are willing to do construction but the influx of illegals have driven and kept wages down. It's a catch 22, not a simple as they just wont did the work. I've been there.

Here's the problem, without foreign workers, construction will be more expensive and there will be less demand for it.

AND there will be less demand for construction because there will be fewer people. Migrants buy houses, rent apartments, buy goods too.

so you don't believe Americans would start going back to those jobs? it's funny how we (companies I've worked for) have no problem finding labor on jobs that require e-verify. I can almost guarantee you that there would be a hiring boom as the construction jobs open back up to Americans.

(02-26-2017 12:35 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 10:24 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:48 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  There are plenty of unfilled jobs. The problem is not a lack of jobs but rather a lack of skills and talent to fill the jobs that are available.

so how do we get enough Anericans qualified for these jobs? the cost of a 4 year degree is through the roof right now. I think we need to push tech skills / trades much harder than we are.

Universal free education through the college Bachelors level paid with sin taxes, luxury taxes, entertainment taxes and pollution taxes.

LOL. I have no other response for that nonsense. If anything I would rather make trade and tech education free. At least those degrees and are almost all employable.

(02-26-2017 12:55 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:02 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  What jobs are these illegal immigrants taking? More importantly, what jobs are they taking that anyone on this message board would be willing to take?

It's not like these people are taking 6 figure admin positions guys, let's be real here.

plenty of Americans are willing to do construction but the influx of illegals have driven and kept wages down. It's a catch 22, not a simple as they just wont did the work. I've been there.

Here's the problem, without foreign workers, construction will be more expensive and there will be less demand for it.

AND there will be less demand for construction because there will be fewer people. Migrants buy houses, rent apartments, buy goods too.

so you don't believe Americans would start going back to those jobs? it's funny how we (companies I've worked for) have no problem finding labor on jobs that require e-verify. I can almost guarantee you that there would be a hiring boom as the construction jobs open back up to Americans.

There will be fewer people and therefore less total economic activity.

there will also be $23 billion less sent back to Mexico, for starters.

(02-26-2017 01:04 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  there will also be $23 billion less sent back to Mexico, for starters.

23 Billion. That is about 1 month of economic activity in Houston, a city with 500,000 undocumented residents. And that's just one city.

Undocumented residents spend FAR more in the USA than they remit to their home country.

America will need to go through several changes in the future. If we want to curb poverty and rabid unemployment.


1st, Basic income. This might be the saving grace as many jobs disappear due to technology or move to part-time status.

2nd, Reduction of the 40 hour workweek. Moving towards a 6 hour work day and maybe even a 24 hour work week would allow for more people to be employed. Thus keeping people engaged in the economy.

3rd, Increase federal spending on infrastructure.

4th, Increase the need for the family farm. 5-10 acres can grow a lot of fruits and vegetables. Not to mention livestock.

5th, Online school system. Instead of going to school. Have more web-based school systems. This would increase the need for a stay at home parents.

(02-26-2017 12:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  Maybe this isn't typical but I have a relative that builds high end homes on the NC coast. He told me many years ago that he used Mexican labor out of necessity. When the market was booming native white and black workers would walk off the job whenever some other contractor drove up to a job site and offered them a quarter more an hour. When the market was down many would rather draw unemployment or would want you to pay them under that table while they continued to draw unemployment. Then there was the drug and alcohol issue. Many of the white guys were on meth and the black guys were on crack, and everybody was drunk on Monday morning and either didn't show up or were totally worthless that day. That was a while back, now the heroin and oxy epidemic has overtaken crack and meth. With Mexican workers he gets skilled labor that show up on time and put in a hard days work every day. It isn't that he can reduce his labor costs in the sense that he pays them less that he would pay a native worker. It is that he reduces his labor costs because he has a more productive, reliable labor source.

spent the last 6 years doing marketing and consulting with contractors. Most of them told me the same. Virtually all of them told me the hardest part about running their business was finding reliable employees.

Now I own a contracting business myself and I'm primarily looking for hispanic workers (legal of course). Not because I want to pay them less, I won't, but because the handful of white and black workers I've had over the last year were notoriously unreliable. One guy out of about 5 was reliable, but he was a raging alcoholic. He called me up one night threatening not to show up for work unless I paid him immediately (he was hammered). I paid him what I owed him and told him to never come back again.

My best friend's dad owned a construction company growing up and his crews were almost exclusively hispanic. They showed up, worked hard, and would always stay late for overtime if work needed to be completed on a deadline.

It's truly hard to find a native born American willing to do manual labor for $15-$20/hr with no criminal records, drug problems, alcohol problems, or reliability issues.

(02-26-2017 11:54 AM)HappyAppy Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:52 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:24 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:22 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  When was the last time you guys were in a high school? There are tons of vocational training tracks. There is also a great deal of coordination between community / trade colleges and the high schools. There is a new fire / emergency services program at our local school. There are medical services, food services, construction, agriculture and business trade programs. At the middle school level we go on a field trip every year to our local community college to share with students just how many options other that the traditional 4 year college track. Students take interest and aptitude tests and surveys to try and get them thinking about their future. The problem is student apathy. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I know that they exist but there isn't much encouragement to go down that road IMHO. how much have we heard that you've "got to go to university" the past 30 years?

There is a huge amount of encouragement where I live. More students are on these tracks than the college track.

That's great to hear. I graduated high school 14 years ago and none of this existed in the high school I went to (a public school in Charlotte). Hope to see more of this in all schools.

Myers Park in Charlotte had a great auto tech trade track back then. I know two lads who did that and now have their own shop.

(02-26-2017 10:42 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:54 AM)HappyAppy Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:52 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:24 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:22 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  When was the last time you guys were in a high school? There are tons of vocational training tracks. There is also a great deal of coordination between community / trade colleges and the high schools. There is a new fire / emergency services program at our local school. There are medical services, food services, construction, agriculture and business trade programs. At the middle school level we go on a field trip every year to our local community college to share with students just how many options other that the traditional 4 year college track. Students take interest and aptitude tests and surveys to try and get them thinking about their future. The problem is student apathy. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I know that they exist but there isn't much encouragement to go down that road IMHO. how much have we heard that you've "got to go to university" the past 30 years?

There is a huge amount of encouragement where I live. More students are on these tracks than the college track.

That's great to hear. I graduated high school 14 years ago and none of this existed in the high school I went to (a public school in Charlotte). Hope to see more of this in all schools.

Myers Park in Charlotte had a great auto tech trade track back then. I know two lads who did that and now have their own shop.

and they're probably way happier (and make more money) than the schmuck that thought going to college was going to guarantee him a good paying office job since that's all we were told growing up.

(02-26-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:02 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:55 AM)Kruciff Wrote:  What jobs are these illegal immigrants taking? More importantly, what jobs are they taking that anyone on this message board would be willing to take?

It's not like these people are taking 6 figure admin positions guys, let's be real here.

plenty of Americans are willing to do construction but the influx of illegals have driven and kept wages down. It's a catch 22, not a simple as they just wont did the work. I've been there.

Here's the problem, without foreign workers, construction will be more expensive and there will be less demand for it.

AND there will be less demand for construction because there will be fewer people. Migrants buy houses, rent apartments, buy goods too.

I'm not sure 8 roofers living together in one apartment is the ideal way to create housing demand.

The problem with illegal immigrants is that they take up the only jobs a certain class of American citizen is qualified for. They do the work well and they do it cheap for the employer, but the country would be better off with a higher demand and wage inflation in those jobs.