(02-26-2017 01:51 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:41 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  You made a good point there. So I'm going to go ahead and move the goal posts back some and hope you can't hit a field goal from the new distance.

FTFY

Actually that's exactly what the nullifying Republicans attempt to do consistently.

We're pretty consistent. There isn't going to be a 'give us this, and we will stop' unless 'this' is full 100 percent equality.

I understand your wanting inclusion for transgender student athletes. They already have challenges that a "normal high school student doesn't have and the transgender issue compounds an already difficult time in a person's life.

However in high school athletics there are rules for every game and those who wish to participate. They weren't created to personally disadvantage specific students, they are to try and have fair competition and avoid unfair advantage.
• There are rules such as a maximum of 4 years of competing so that you don't have kids flunking to gain a size advantage.
• There are rules that you can't compete in high school if you are over 20 years old no matter what age you started high school so you don't have over 20 years old competing.
• There are very specific rules against performance enhancing drugs. Student athletes regularly must be subjected to drug tests so that they are performing clean. (You made a charge that there are student athletes under the care of doctors getting PEDs and that athletic governing bodies are allowing this.... If you are going to make the charge you should provide proof. That is a very serious ethical charge to make against doctors. I'm sure there have been random cases of this but it is not widespread.)

As an example of a similar eligibility issue, a 20 year old who is still in high school could argue that his not being eligbil to participate is age discrimination and the 20 year old might legally have a case but that rule exists for fair competition, not to punish the rare 20 year old still in high school. That rule also exists for safety reasons so you don't have a 20 year old man competing against a 14 year old teen.

Rules with regard to gender in competition are for much the same reasons. I don't believe they are intended to discriminate against trans students. These rules have been in place well before there were kids coming out as trans in high school. No boys in girls competitions and no girls in boys competition are for fair competition and safety. Can you imagine the unfairness of a 19 year old male transitioning to female competing against a 14 year old girl in wrestling? Or a 19 year old female transitioning to male getting to compete against girls? You can argue that the trans student should get to compete however they choose to but where is the fairness to the girls they are competing against? Just because they have a perceived tougher road in life for being trans doesn't mean they should be advantaged in high school athletics.

I have actually argued a case in front of the OHSAA for an exemption to the rule for a max of 4 years of high school competition for a young man. He had started high school at 12 at an accelerated school in one state and switched to a traditional high school in another. As a freshman at the new school he was told he had two years of eligibility left. He was only 14 years old as a freshman and had 4 years of high school ahead and would finish high school at 18. He asked for two additional years of eligibility so that he could compete all the way through high school or to be allowed to train only and not compete as a freshmen and sophomore in order to save his two remaining years of eligibility for his jr and sr years. In this case, this young man wasn't going to get any kind of competitive advantage as he was age appropriate. But the OHSAA Rules state that in total a student gets 4 consecutive years of high school competition so this student's "clock" started ticking at 12 and ended at 16. No exceptions. He wasn't happy about it but sucked it up and went on. A decision he had taken in another state to start high school at 12 ended up hurting his ability to compete but rules are rules.

(02-25-2017 12:21 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  in ANY sport or organization originally dedicated to biological sex individuals? For example...

should M to F be allowed to participate in the WNBA, WPGA, American Professional Women's Association, Sociey of Womens Engineers, etc?

Likewise should F to M trans people be allowed to do the inverse?

Seems like the identity politics wing of the left is on a collision course.

There is no need for 5 pages of arguments in this thread. The answer is simple.

No.

It does not matter what parts you choose to remove or add. It does not matter how many different hormones you take. Genetically a male will remain a male, and a female will remain a female. No doctor, surgery, or drug regiment can change that. Your chromosomes determine which sex you are, and need to determine where trans play.

Of course, I have no problem with females playing in male sports, if they have the ability. But, that has nothing to do with this issue.

(02-26-2017 01:55 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 01:51 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:41 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  You made a good point there. So I'm going to go ahead and move the goal posts back some and hope you can't hit a field goal from the new distance.

FTFY

Actually that's exactly what the nullifying Republicans attempt to do consistently.

We're pretty consistent. There isn't going to be a 'give us this, and we will stop' unless 'this' is full 100 percent equality.

Should this women be awarded a scholarship intended for a black and/or black woman?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/26/rac...eless.html

Does Rachel Dolezal's case hurt or help your cause?

Transgenders should be able to participate in anything they want, and accept whichever restrictions are the natural result of their decisions--just like everybody else.

(02-26-2017 02:26 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  I understand your wanting inclusion for transgender student athletes. They already have challenges that a "normal high school student doesn't have and the transgender issue compounds an already difficult time in a person's life.

However in high school athletics there are rules for every game and those who wish to participate. They weren't created to personally disadvantage specific students, they are to try and have fair competition and avoid unfair advantage.
• There are rules such as a maximum of 4 years of competing so that you don't have kids flunking to gain a size advantage.
• There are rules that you can't compete in high school if you are over 20 years old no matter what age you started high school so you don't have over 20 years old competing.
• There are very specific rules against performance enhancing drugs. Student athletes regularly must be subjected to drug tests so that they are performing clean. (You made a charge that there are student athletes under the care of doctors getting PEDs and that athletic governing bodies are allowing this.... If you are going to make the charge you should provide proof. That is a very serious ethical charge to make against doctors. I'm sure there have been random cases of this but it is not widespread.)

As an example of a similar eligibility issue, a 20 year old who is still in high school could argue that his not being eligbil to participate is age discrimination and the 20 year old might legally have a case but that rule exists for fair competition, not to punish the rare 20 year old still in high school. That rule also exists for safety reasons so you don't have a 20 year old man competing against a 14 year old teen.

Rules with regard to gender in competition are for much the same reasons. I don't believe they are intended to discriminate against trans students. These rules have been in place well before there were kids coming out as trans in high school. No boys in girls competitions and no girls in boys competition are for fair competition and safety. Can you imagine the unfairness of a 19 year old male transitioning to female competing against a 14 year old girl in wrestling? Or a 19 year old female transitioning to male getting to compete against girls? You can argue that the trans student should get to compete however they choose to but where is the fairness to the girls they are competing against? Just because they have a perceived tougher road in life for being trans doesn't mean they should be advantaged in high school athletics.

I have actually argued a case in front of the OHSAA for an exemption to the rule for a max of 4 years of high school competition for a young man. He had started high school at 12 at an accelerated school in one state and switched to a traditional high school in another. As a freshman at the new school he was told he had two years of eligibility left. He was only 14 years old as a freshman and had 4 years of high school ahead and would finish high school at 18. He asked for two additional years of eligibility so that he could compete all the way through high school or to be allowed to train only and not compete as a freshmen and sophomore in order to save his two remaining years of eligibility for his jr and sr years. In this case, this young man wasn't going to get any kind of competitive advantage as he was age appropriate. But the OHSAA Rules state that in total a student gets 4 consecutive years of high school competition so this student's "clock" started ticking at 12 and ended at 16. No exceptions. He wasn't happy about it but sucked it up and went on. A decision he had taken in another state to start high school at 12 ended up hurting his ability to compete but rules are rules.

Texas' leaders including the UIL, appear to be laser focused on trying to needlessly abuse Trans kids, for the sport of it. One only needs to look at the legislation to see that.

I think that part of the problem that many LGBT kids face is systematic typecasting and exclusion from cool sports. Excluding them either by policy (UIL) or de facto (allowing the religious groups to determine who makes teams - or turning public school teams into evangelizing efforts that demean non-Christian and LGBT kids) is part of the process to encourage marginalization of LGBT kids. The FCA doesn't target the chess club for a reason.

If there's a benefit to participating in physical team sports, that is so pressing that the state of Texas spends HUNDREDS of millions of taxpayer funds on it each year, then LGBT persons should be able to compete VISIBLY. Or they can just shut down all the sports. Equal protection....means Equal protection.

The UIL rule was passed last year.

Males and females are taking certain PED and do compete in UIL events. Have been for years. If you get an allergy, you can get steroids. You don't lose the ability to compete automatically due to that. They get notes from doctors and they're usually allowed to compete. There's no reason for a Trans ban, other than an attempt to keep Trans kids invisible and marginalized.

(02-26-2017 03:15 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Transgenders should be able to participate in anything they want, and accept whichever restrictions are the natural result of their decisions--just like everybody else.

Restrictions enacted to specifically prevent them from competing aren't legitimate. "Allowing" Trans kids to compete, so long as they aren't Trans isn't a solution.

(02-26-2017 03:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 02:26 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  I understand your wanting inclusion for transgender student athletes. They already have challenges that a "normal high school student doesn't have and the transgender issue compounds an already difficult time in a person's life.

However in high school athletics there are rules for every game and those who wish to participate. They weren't created to personally disadvantage specific students, they are to try and have fair competition and avoid unfair advantage.
• There are rules such as a maximum of 4 years of competing so that you don't have kids flunking to gain a size advantage.
• There are rules that you can't compete in high school if you are over 20 years old no matter what age you started high school so you don't have over 20 years old competing.
• There are very specific rules against performance enhancing drugs. Student athletes regularly must be subjected to drug tests so that they are performing clean. (You made a charge that there are student athletes under the care of doctors getting PEDs and that athletic governing bodies are allowing this.... If you are going to make the charge you should provide proof. That is a very serious ethical charge to make against doctors. I'm sure there have been random cases of this but it is not widespread.)

As an example of a similar eligibility issue, a 20 year old who is still in high school could argue that his not being eligbil to participate is age discrimination and the 20 year old might legally have a case but that rule exists for fair competition, not to punish the rare 20 year old still in high school. That rule also exists for safety reasons so you don't have a 20 year old man competing against a 14 year old teen.

Rules with regard to gender in competition are for much the same reasons. I don't believe they are intended to discriminate against trans students. These rules have been in place well before there were kids coming out as trans in high school. No boys in girls competitions and no girls in boys competition are for fair competition and safety. Can you imagine the unfairness of a 19 year old male transitioning to female competing against a 14 year old girl in wrestling? Or a 19 year old female transitioning to male getting to compete against girls? You can argue that the trans student should get to compete however they choose to but where is the fairness to the girls they are competing against? Just because they have a perceived tougher road in life for being trans doesn't mean they should be advantaged in high school athletics.

I have actually argued a case in front of the OHSAA for an exemption to the rule for a max of 4 years of high school competition for a young man. He had started high school at 12 at an accelerated school in one state and switched to a traditional high school in another. As a freshman at the new school he was told he had two years of eligibility left. He was only 14 years old as a freshman and had 4 years of high school ahead and would finish high school at 18. He asked for two additional years of eligibility so that he could compete all the way through high school or to be allowed to train only and not compete as a freshmen and sophomore in order to save his two remaining years of eligibility for his jr and sr years. In this case, this young man wasn't going to get any kind of competitive advantage as he was age appropriate. But the OHSAA Rules state that in total a student gets 4 consecutive years of high school competition so this student's "clock" started ticking at 12 and ended at 16. No exceptions. He wasn't happy about it but sucked it up and went on. A decision he had taken in another state to start high school at 12 ended up hurting his ability to compete but rules are rules.

Texas' leaders including the UIL, appear to be laser focused on trying to needlessly abuse Trans kids, for the sport of it. One only needs to look at the legislation to see that.

I think that part of the problem that many LGBT kids face is systematic typecasting and exclusion from cool sports. Excluding them either by policy (UIL) or de facto (allowing the religious groups to determine who makes teams - or turning public school teams into evangelizing efforts that demean non-Christian and LGBT kids) is part of the process to encourage marginalization of LGBT kids. The FCA doesn't target the chess club for a reason.

If there's a benefit to participating in physical team sports, that is so pressing that the state of Texas spends HUNDREDS of millions of taxpayer funds on it each year, then LGBT persons should be able to compete VISIBLY. Or they can just shut down all the sports. Equal protection....means Equal protection.

The UIL rule was passed last year.

Males and females are taking certain PED and do compete in UIL events. Have been for years. If you get an allergy, you can get steroids. You don't lose the ability to compete automatically due to that. They get notes from doctors and they're usually allowed to compete. There's no reason for a Trans ban, other than an attempt to keep Trans kids invisible and marginalized.

If what you are saying is true then it is a Texas problem not a national one.

(02-26-2017 04:28 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 03:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 02:26 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  I understand your wanting inclusion for transgender student athletes. They already have challenges that a "normal high school student doesn't have and the transgender issue compounds an already difficult time in a person's life.

However in high school athletics there are rules for every game and those who wish to participate. They weren't created to personally disadvantage specific students, they are to try and have fair competition and avoid unfair advantage.
• There are rules such as a maximum of 4 years of competing so that you don't have kids flunking to gain a size advantage.
• There are rules that you can't compete in high school if you are over 20 years old no matter what age you started high school so you don't have over 20 years old competing.
• There are very specific rules against performance enhancing drugs. Student athletes regularly must be subjected to drug tests so that they are performing clean. (You made a charge that there are student athletes under the care of doctors getting PEDs and that athletic governing bodies are allowing this.... If you are going to make the charge you should provide proof. That is a very serious ethical charge to make against doctors. I'm sure there have been random cases of this but it is not widespread.)

As an example of a similar eligibility issue, a 20 year old who is still in high school could argue that his not being eligbil to participate is age discrimination and the 20 year old might legally have a case but that rule exists for fair competition, not to punish the rare 20 year old still in high school. That rule also exists for safety reasons so you don't have a 20 year old man competing against a 14 year old teen.

Rules with regard to gender in competition are for much the same reasons. I don't believe they are intended to discriminate against trans students. These rules have been in place well before there were kids coming out as trans in high school. No boys in girls competitions and no girls in boys competition are for fair competition and safety. Can you imagine the unfairness of a 19 year old male transitioning to female competing against a 14 year old girl in wrestling? Or a 19 year old female transitioning to male getting to compete against girls? You can argue that the trans student should get to compete however they choose to but where is the fairness to the girls they are competing against? Just because they have a perceived tougher road in life for being trans doesn't mean they should be advantaged in high school athletics.

I have actually argued a case in front of the OHSAA for an exemption to the rule for a max of 4 years of high school competition for a young man. He had started high school at 12 at an accelerated school in one state and switched to a traditional high school in another. As a freshman at the new school he was told he had two years of eligibility left. He was only 14 years old as a freshman and had 4 years of high school ahead and would finish high school at 18. He asked for two additional years of eligibility so that he could compete all the way through high school or to be allowed to train only and not compete as a freshmen and sophomore in order to save his two remaining years of eligibility for his jr and sr years. In this case, this young man wasn't going to get any kind of competitive advantage as he was age appropriate. But the OHSAA Rules state that in total a student gets 4 consecutive years of high school competition so this student's "clock" started ticking at 12 and ended at 16. No exceptions. He wasn't happy about it but sucked it up and went on. A decision he had taken in another state to start high school at 12 ended up hurting his ability to compete but rules are rules.

Texas' leaders including the UIL, appear to be laser focused on trying to needlessly abuse Trans kids, for the sport of it. One only needs to look at the legislation to see that.

I think that part of the problem that many LGBT kids face is systematic typecasting and exclusion from cool sports. Excluding them either by policy (UIL) or de facto (allowing the religious groups to determine who makes teams - or turning public school teams into evangelizing efforts that demean non-Christian and LGBT kids) is part of the process to encourage marginalization of LGBT kids. The FCA doesn't target the chess club for a reason.

If there's a benefit to participating in physical team sports, that is so pressing that the state of Texas spends HUNDREDS of millions of taxpayer funds on it each year, then LGBT persons should be able to compete VISIBLY. Or they can just shut down all the sports. Equal protection....means Equal protection.

The UIL rule was passed last year.

Males and females are taking certain PED and do compete in UIL events. Have been for years. If you get an allergy, you can get steroids. You don't lose the ability to compete automatically due to that. They get notes from doctors and they're usually allowed to compete. There's no reason for a Trans ban, other than an attempt to keep Trans kids invisible and marginalized.

If what you are saying is true then it is a Texas problem not a national one.

Oddly enough, Ohio (that's where you're from, right?) is actually WORSE on Trans inclusion in some respects. Ohio refuses to allow a gender change even AFTER reassignment surgery. Born male, stay male. No matter what.

So in Ohio, if there was a case where reassignment has taken place, that Transman would be required to play on the girls team, even if he has a *****. If the Ohio leagues mandate legal gender being controlling.

Jesus Christ, Tom.... You're ridiculous

We spend millions on sports for men and women because men and women make up 99% of the population.

I bet you couldn't field a TRULY 'mixed doubles' (if you catch my joke) Tennis team in 99% of schools... and you couldn't put more than a dozen such teams in a state as big as Texas... Much less a whole tennis team, or a volleyball team, or baseball/softball or

Trans women have an unfair genetic advantage... so unless you're willing to scrap Title IX altogether and just let 'the best' compete and we fund that (and believe me, that's where ALL of the money comes from and would go) then you're only screwing the people you say you support.

I feel bad for this girl... I really do... but she STOLE opportunities from dozens of other girls by competing unfairly.... unless you're going to allow natural born girls to take artificial testosterone from birth until high school and still compete as 'women'.

Let's just do that. One team... the best people compete.

Surprise, surprise... Men/boys are going to hold 85+% of all athletic positions and 95% of all college scholarships.

You're the worst sort of Troll, Tom.... because you just argue to argue and claim victimization at every turn. You are the WORST advocate for these people because you aren't interested in an actual solution... just in arguing and claiming to be a victim.

(02-26-2017 05:05 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Jesus Christ, Tom.... You're ridiculous

We spend millions on sports for men and women because men and women make up 99% of the population.

I bet you couldn't field a TRULY 'mixed doubles' (if you catch my joke) Tennis team in 99% of schools... and you couldn't put more than a dozen such teams in a state as big as Texas... Much less a whole tennis team, or a volleyball team, or baseball/softball or

Trans women have an unfair genetic advantage... so unless you're willing to scrap Title IX altogether and just let 'the best' compete and we fund that (and believe me, that's where ALL of the money comes from and would go) then you're only screwing the people you say you support.

I feel bad for this girl... I really do... but she STOLE opportunities from dozens of other girls by competing unfairly.... unless you're going to allow natural born girls to take artificial testosterone from birth until high school and still compete as 'women'.

Let's just do that. One team... the best people compete.

Surprise, surprise... Men/boys are going to hold 85+% of all athletic positions and 95% of all college scholarships.

You're the worst sort of Troll, Tom.... because you just argue to argue and claim victimization at every turn. You are the WORST advocate for these people because you aren't interested in an actual solution... just in arguing and claiming to be a victim.

Ham,

Its Texas, its Trans people. Come on, you've heard those ads calling all Trans people like child molesters. There's only about 1000 pieces of legislation specifically trying to enable discrimination against them working their way through Dan Patrick's statehouse.

Again, if we weren't in an environment where Trans people were demonized by the GOP with incredible frequency here in Texas, and Trans kids weren't being abused and otherwise marginalized in schools, then maybe we could have a discussion.

But no, while the war on Trans people is going on, expect full on equal protection arguments to erupt nationally.

(02-26-2017 12:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Simple solution. Women's/girls' competitions are open only to genetic females not taking any gender alteration drugs that would tend to be performance enhancing. Men's/boys' competitions are open competitions, open to all.

Along the lines with what what I was thinking.

(02-26-2017 04:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 04:28 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 03:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 02:26 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  I understand your wanting inclusion for transgender student athletes. They already have challenges that a "normal high school student doesn't have and the transgender issue compounds an already difficult time in a person's life.

However in high school athletics there are rules for every game and those who wish to participate. They weren't created to personally disadvantage specific students, they are to try and have fair competition and avoid unfair advantage.
• There are rules such as a maximum of 4 years of competing so that you don't have kids flunking to gain a size advantage.
• There are rules that you can't compete in high school if you are over 20 years old no matter what age you started high school so you don't have over 20 years old competing.
• There are very specific rules against performance enhancing drugs. Student athletes regularly must be subjected to drug tests so that they are performing clean. (You made a charge that there are student athletes under the care of doctors getting PEDs and that athletic governing bodies are allowing this.... If you are going to make the charge you should provide proof. That is a very serious ethical charge to make against doctors. I'm sure there have been random cases of this but it is not widespread.)

As an example of a similar eligibility issue, a 20 year old who is still in high school could argue that his not being eligbil to participate is age discrimination and the 20 year old might legally have a case but that rule exists for fair competition, not to punish the rare 20 year old still in high school. That rule also exists for safety reasons so you don't have a 20 year old man competing against a 14 year old teen.

Rules with regard to gender in competition are for much the same reasons. I don't believe they are intended to discriminate against trans students. These rules have been in place well before there were kids coming out as trans in high school. No boys in girls competitions and no girls in boys competition are for fair competition and safety. Can you imagine the unfairness of a 19 year old male transitioning to female competing against a 14 year old girl in wrestling? Or a 19 year old female transitioning to male getting to compete against girls? You can argue that the trans student should get to compete however they choose to but where is the fairness to the girls they are competing against? Just because they have a perceived tougher road in life for being trans doesn't mean they should be advantaged in high school athletics.

I have actually argued a case in front of the OHSAA for an exemption to the rule for a max of 4 years of high school competition for a young man. He had started high school at 12 at an accelerated school in one state and switched to a traditional high school in another. As a freshman at the new school he was told he had two years of eligibility left. He was only 14 years old as a freshman and had 4 years of high school ahead and would finish high school at 18. He asked for two additional years of eligibility so that he could compete all the way through high school or to be allowed to train only and not compete as a freshmen and sophomore in order to save his two remaining years of eligibility for his jr and sr years. In this case, this young man wasn't going to get any kind of competitive advantage as he was age appropriate. But the OHSAA Rules state that in total a student gets 4 consecutive years of high school competition so this student's "clock" started ticking at 12 and ended at 16. No exceptions. He wasn't happy about it but sucked it up and went on. A decision he had taken in another state to start high school at 12 ended up hurting his ability to compete but rules are rules.

Texas' leaders including the UIL, appear to be laser focused on trying to needlessly abuse Trans kids, for the sport of it. One only needs to look at the legislation to see that.

I think that part of the problem that many LGBT kids face is systematic typecasting and exclusion from cool sports. Excluding them either by policy (UIL) or de facto (allowing the religious groups to determine who makes teams - or turning public school teams into evangelizing efforts that demean non-Christian and LGBT kids) is part of the process to encourage marginalization of LGBT kids. The FCA doesn't target the chess club for a reason.

If there's a benefit to participating in physical team sports, that is so pressing that the state of Texas spends HUNDREDS of millions of taxpayer funds on it each year, then LGBT persons should be able to compete VISIBLY. Or they can just shut down all the sports. Equal protection....means Equal protection.

The UIL rule was passed last year.

Males and females are taking certain PED and do compete in UIL events. Have been for years. If you get an allergy, you can get steroids. You don't lose the ability to compete automatically due to that. They get notes from doctors and they're usually allowed to compete. There's no reason for a Trans ban, other than an attempt to keep Trans kids invisible and marginalized.

If what you are saying is true then it is a Texas problem not a national one.

Oddly enough, Ohio (that's where you're from, right?) is actually WORSE on Trans inclusion in some respects. Ohio refuses to allow a gender change even AFTER reassignment surgery. Born male, stay male. No matter what.

So in Ohio, if there was a case where reassignment has taken place, that Transman would be required to play on the girls team, even if he has a *****. If the Ohio leagues mandate legal gender being controlling.

You are FLAT OUT WRONG on OHSAA's transgender policy which has been in effect since 2014. The OHSAA will allow transgendered athletes to compete in their new gender if their transformation is complete and there are no physical advantages gained.
The OHSAA policy with regard to transgenders is concerned with fairness in competition and safety.

…A transgender athlete's potential for clearance rests largely with his or her commitment to hormone or testosterone treatments.

• A male-to-female (MTF) transgender athlete who is taking prescribed hormone treatment related to gender transition may participate on a boys' team at any time.
But before a MTF transgender athlete can compete in a girls' sport, the athlete must either complete a minimum of one year of hormone treatment or show the OHSAA medical evidence that there are no physical or physiological advantages over genetic females.

• A female-to-male (FTM) transgender athlete who has not yet begun testosterone treatment for gender transition can compete on a boys' team.
But once testosterone treatment has begun, the athlete must show the OHSAA that muscle mass doesn't exceed that of a typical genetic boy of the same age. Also, a physician must monitor hormone levels every few months and report to the OHSAA.¬

http://www.cleveland.com/hssports/blog/i...for_a.html

(02-26-2017 05:56 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 04:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 04:28 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 03:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 02:26 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  I understand your wanting inclusion for transgender student athletes. They already have challenges that a "normal high school student doesn't have and the transgender issue compounds an already difficult time in a person's life.

However in high school athletics there are rules for every game and those who wish to participate. They weren't created to personally disadvantage specific students, they are to try and have fair competition and avoid unfair advantage.
• There are rules such as a maximum of 4 years of competing so that you don't have kids flunking to gain a size advantage.
• There are rules that you can't compete in high school if you are over 20 years old no matter what age you started high school so you don't have over 20 years old competing.
• There are very specific rules against performance enhancing drugs. Student athletes regularly must be subjected to drug tests so that they are performing clean. (You made a charge that there are student athletes under the care of doctors getting PEDs and that athletic governing bodies are allowing this.... If you are going to make the charge you should provide proof. That is a very serious ethical charge to make against doctors. I'm sure there have been random cases of this but it is not widespread.)

As an example of a similar eligibility issue, a 20 year old who is still in high school could argue that his not being eligbil to participate is age discrimination and the 20 year old might legally have a case but that rule exists for fair competition, not to punish the rare 20 year old still in high school. That rule also exists for safety reasons so you don't have a 20 year old man competing against a 14 year old teen.

Rules with regard to gender in competition are for much the same reasons. I don't believe they are intended to discriminate against trans students. These rules have been in place well before there were kids coming out as trans in high school. No boys in girls competitions and no girls in boys competition are for fair competition and safety. Can you imagine the unfairness of a 19 year old male transitioning to female competing against a 14 year old girl in wrestling? Or a 19 year old female transitioning to male getting to compete against girls? You can argue that the trans student should get to compete however they choose to but where is the fairness to the girls they are competing against? Just because they have a perceived tougher road in life for being trans doesn't mean they should be advantaged in high school athletics.

I have actually argued a case in front of the OHSAA for an exemption to the rule for a max of 4 years of high school competition for a young man. He had started high school at 12 at an accelerated school in one state and switched to a traditional high school in another. As a freshman at the new school he was told he had two years of eligibility left. He was only 14 years old as a freshman and had 4 years of high school ahead and would finish high school at 18. He asked for two additional years of eligibility so that he could compete all the way through high school or to be allowed to train only and not compete as a freshmen and sophomore in order to save his two remaining years of eligibility for his jr and sr years. In this case, this young man wasn't going to get any kind of competitive advantage as he was age appropriate. But the OHSAA Rules state that in total a student gets 4 consecutive years of high school competition so this student's "clock" started ticking at 12 and ended at 16. No exceptions. He wasn't happy about it but sucked it up and went on. A decision he had taken in another state to start high school at 12 ended up hurting his ability to compete but rules are rules.

Texas' leaders including the UIL, appear to be laser focused on trying to needlessly abuse Trans kids, for the sport of it. One only needs to look at the legislation to see that.

I think that part of the problem that many LGBT kids face is systematic typecasting and exclusion from cool sports. Excluding them either by policy (UIL) or de facto (allowing the religious groups to determine who makes teams - or turning public school teams into evangelizing efforts that demean non-Christian and LGBT kids) is part of the process to encourage marginalization of LGBT kids. The FCA doesn't target the chess club for a reason.

If there's a benefit to participating in physical team sports, that is so pressing that the state of Texas spends HUNDREDS of millions of taxpayer funds on it each year, then LGBT persons should be able to compete VISIBLY. Or they can just shut down all the sports. Equal protection....means Equal protection.

The UIL rule was passed last year.

Males and females are taking certain PED and do compete in UIL events. Have been for years. If you get an allergy, you can get steroids. You don't lose the ability to compete automatically due to that. They get notes from doctors and they're usually allowed to compete. There's no reason for a Trans ban, other than an attempt to keep Trans kids invisible and marginalized.

If what you are saying is true then it is a Texas problem not a national one.

Oddly enough, Ohio (that's where you're from, right?) is actually WORSE on Trans inclusion in some respects. Ohio refuses to allow a gender change even AFTER reassignment surgery. Born male, stay male. No matter what.

So in Ohio, if there was a case where reassignment has taken place, that Transman would be required to play on the girls team, even if he has a *****. If the Ohio leagues mandate legal gender being controlling.

You are FLAT OUT WRONG on OHSAA's transgender policy which has been in effect since 2014. The OHSAA will allow transgendered athletes to compete in their new gender if their transformation is complete and there are physical advantages gained.
The OHSAA policy with regard to transgenders is concerned with fairness in competition and safety.

…A transgender athlete's potential for clearance rests largely with his or her commitment to hormone or testosterone treatments.

• A male-to-female (MTF) transgender athlete who is taking prescribed hormone treatment related to gender transition may participate on a boys' team at any time.
But before a MTF transgender athlete can compete in a girls' sport, the athlete must either complete a minimum of one year of hormone treatment or show the OHSAA medical evidence that there are no physical or physiological advantages over genetic females.

• A female-to-male (FTM) transgender athlete who has not yet begun testosterone treatment for gender transition can compete on a boys' team.
But once testosterone treatment has begun, the athlete must show the OHSAA that muscle mass doesn't exceed that of a typical genetic boy of the same age. Also, a physician must monitor hormone levels every few months and report to the OHSAA.¬

http://www.cleveland.com/hssports/blog/i...for_a.html

Oh, I know. Pesky rules. How dare they exist!

(02-26-2017 12:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Simple solution. Women's/girls' competitions are open only to genetic females not taking any gender alteration drugs that would tend to be performance enhancing. Men's/boys' competitions are open competitions, open to all.

Nope..Not good enough for Tom. No compromise...period. The alphabets must get their way 100 percent.

Full equality. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, passing a bunch of rules in order to stop participation by Trans kids is targeting.

The issue with Owl's plan is that it makes M to F Trans kids compete in their incorrect gender. You want male wrestlers to compete against a kid with boobs?

The real problem is that the UIL decided to look at it from a Texas GOP perspective, and forced Mack to choose between competing against girls or not compete at all.

Tom, this happens everywhere. I've done it. Almost lost until coach figured out what she was trying to do.

(02-25-2017 12:21 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  in ANY sport or organization originally dedicated to biological sex individuals? For example...

should M to F be allowed to participate in the WNBA, WPGA, American Professional Women's Association, Sociey of Womens Engineers, etc?

Likewise should F to M trans people be allowed to do the inverse?

Seems like the identity politics wing of the left is on a collision course.

IF the moonbats on the left are serious about forcing the bathroom and locker room issue, yes. Not only that, but M to F trans and F to M trans should be able to live in the dorm they choose, it's only fair it's either ALL or nothing, there's no halfway.

(02-26-2017 03:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Males and females are taking certain PED and do compete in UIL events. Have been for years. If you get an allergy, you can get steroids. You don't lose the ability to compete automatically due to that. They get notes from doctors and they're usually allowed to compete. There's no reason for a Trans ban, other than an attempt to keep Trans kids invisible and marginalized.

https://www.verywell.com/anabolic-steroi...nce-190456

Here's some information for anyone who thinks providers are prescribing P.E.D.s to teenagers on a regular basis. Complete horse manure.

(02-26-2017 06:34 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 03:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Males and females are taking certain PED and do compete in UIL events. Have been for years. If you get an allergy, you can get steroids. You don't lose the ability to compete automatically due to that. They get notes from doctors and they're usually allowed to compete. There's no reason for a Trans ban, other than an attempt to keep Trans kids invisible and marginalized.

https://www.verywell.com/anabolic-steroi...nce-190456

Here's some information for anyone who thinks providers are prescribing P.E.D.s to teenagers on a regular basis. Complete horse manure.

Thank you. There will always be cheaters but it is not on some systemic mass scale.

(02-26-2017 05:14 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Again, if we weren't in an environment where Trans people were demonized by the GOP with incredible frequency here in Texas, and Trans kids weren't being abused and otherwise marginalized in schools, then maybe we could have a discussion.

But no, while the war on Trans people is going on, expect full on equal protection arguments to erupt nationally.

Your intransigence on any alphabet issue is what stops discussion here Tom, and it's the kind of attitude which stops us from finding any national common ground.

For example... On bathrooms. I'm willing to discuss some compromises based on the nature of the business and it's size. But you're not. You are thrilled to see 70+ year old grandmothers have their tiny flower shop shut down.

(02-26-2017 03:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  here's no reason for a Trans ban, other than an attempt to keep Trans kids invisible and marginalized.

For a person who seems to be championing for inclusion and acceptance... it's odd that you have such a binary view of possible solutions. If you believe that gender/sex isn't binary... why do you think that a complex issue like this can only have two options... ie "Agree with with my solution to the issue" or "You are engaging in actions with Intent to marginalize trans people."

There's more than two colors on that LGBTQIA rainbow ya know... there's isn't a single solution that will cover every situation for every unique person that identifies somewhere on that rainbow.