(02-23-2017 03:07 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  What a game; what an experience.......

.......I thought in general the refs were decent, but FAR from good.

.......I've brought up Cromer's bitching after every foul call more than once on this board, but it nearly cost us the game this time with the T on him.
Can I say.......It's great to be a Buccaneer.

Another great early-morning post, PFKD. My only quibble would be re the referees. I rarely complain about the officials, mainly because I think the SoCon referees have been excellent this year, but I give this crew very low marks. I don't think they favored one team over the other. I don't think they determined the outcome of the game. I just think they are a poor crew — and given the import of this game, the SoCon should have sent a better group.

I was talking with a friend at halftime, and he said most conferences help their weakest referees by matching them with a strong lead official. It certainly seemed that way as two of the officials were inconsistent and clearly unconfident.

I was most disappointed, however, when the "strong" official appeared to strongly (pun intended) overreact during the Banks/Sibley confrontation. You never know what is being said in those types of scrums, but it didn't look anywhere close to a situation deserving the assessment of three technical fouls on top of the already-called personal foul. Perhaps it was the stress of carrying two struggling officials, but I think a top official would have gotten control without all of the carnage.

I initially thought both technicals were on T.J. and he would have been gone. Then, we'd all have been in here crying about the officials. On T.J.'s behalf, I think he has done a good job lately of toning down the moaning — and he and the team have been better for it. I also give him a semi-pass for the technical. At least he was arguing on his teammate's behalf, not his own.

(02-23-2017 08:05 AM)ekxixis1984 Wrote:  Since I can only log-in using this computer, let me just say that Furman was by far the most cohesive, and overall strongest team that has entered Freedom Hall this year. I hope that someone else takes care of them in the tournament. The rank would go like this:

1. Furman (shooters galore and crisp)
2. UNCG (Streaky yet deadly still)
3. Samford
4. UTC (Sorry, but it's true)

From my handful of observations, I really like Niko Medved — his demeanor and the on-court results.

Furman has a lot of fine young players. For 2017-18, they lose Acox, but Rafferty will be back from injury. They won't be any easier next season.

I have to also agree about the refs - just borderline uncertain of themselves. They called what, one walk the entire game? I'm all for letting the game flow, but when my daughter, who loves basketball, but is not all that great about the rules and details sometimes gets mad because an obvious walk wasn't called, there's some incompetence going on. She was fussing that she almost never catches when walks happen, but happened to notice it before others around us started fussing about it and if SHE saw it, but the ref ignored it, he was a moron.

I was glad to see the students getting fired up last night. I think if they can get a core group of well liked students more involved to get the students more hype next year at every game, it would be a helpful thing. I think getting the team out on campus this year, giving out tickets was a great way to help too and should be continued. Many of the players are popular guys among the students and they should use that connection to push more student participation.

And WOW on the community getting all fired up about the Bucs this season! While it makes traffic a pain, seeing the crowds get bigger just coming into the game has been exciting and then seeing those upper levels filling out with the crowd was fantastic. The atmosphere was electric and I hope that carries over to next season at home as well as encourages big groups to head to Asheville next month. I know we all hated the loss to TN, but that brought a lot of people to Freedom Hall that may not normally have come, and a close game showed them the Bucs meant business. That, and the other great wins, have kept them coming.

I have a love/hate relationship with Senior Night. Always makes me sad knowing it is one of the last times I'll see those guys play as Bucs, but I LOVE seeing the guys with their families. You can see so much pride on both the players' and families' faces. These are some great "kids" and we are really blessed to have them a part of ETSU and our community as well.

I also thought that Cromer had received two technical fouls, and with 10 minutes left that could have cost us the game. But he was warned by the official to stop talking and he kept going while the official was trying to remove himself from the situation to go to the scorers table- that is going to get a technical most times.

Regarding the sell out, it was clearly not a true sell out. In both the UTC and Furman games, there were a few unsold tickets. But with how UTC inflated their attendance figure Saturday, I am fine with us calling that a sell out as it was really close.

This season's performance during big games at home (except for the UT game), as well as the environment that we were able to create, should have long lasting impacts. We have talked on here before about the likelihood that we lost a generation of fans when Bartow was coach when we didn't get the students engaged. Well, I don't know how any student could be at the games this year and not become a Buc fan. These students will graduate from ETSU, and hopefully come back as season ticket holders in the future to replace our aging fanbase.

(02-23-2017 09:15 AM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  I have to also agree about the refs - just borderline uncertain of themselves. They called what, one walk the entire game? I'm all for letting the game flow, but when my daughter, who loves basketball, but is not all that great about the rules and details sometimes gets mad because an obvious walk wasn't called, there's some incompetence going on. She was fussing that she almost never catches when walks happen, but happened to notice it before others around us started fussing about it and if SHE saw it, but the ref ignored it, he was a moron.

I was glad to see the students getting fired up last night. I think if they can get a core group of well liked students more involved to get the students more hype next year at every game, it would be a helpful thing. I think getting the team out on campus this year, giving out tickets was a great way to help too and should be continued. Many of the players are popular guys among the students and they should use that connection to push more student participation.

I agree about the students but imagine what energy they would bring IF they were down at the floor level. I realize it's a revenue thing but just sayin . . .

And WOW on the community getting all fired up about the Bucs this season! While it makes traffic a pain, seeing the crowds get bigger just coming into the game has been exciting and then seeing those upper levels filling out with the crowd was fantastic. The atmosphere was electric and I hope that carries over to next season at home as well as encourages big groups to head to Asheville next month. I know we all hated the loss to TN, but that brought a lot of people to Freedom Hall that may not normally have come, and a close game showed them the Bucs meant business. That, and the other great wins, have kept them coming.

And speaking of traffic; it was unfortunate timing to have I26 shut down at exit 17 for an additional about 15 delay (after the extra OT) for us folks that have about an hour drive. The excitement of the game was worth it, but . . .

I have a love/hate relationship with Senior Night. Always makes me sad knowing it is one of the last times I'll see those guys play as Bucs, but I LOVE seeing the guys with their families. You can see so much pride on both the players' and families' faces. These are some great "kids" and we are really blessed to have them a part of ETSU and our community as well.

On a side note, nice job getting on the Kiss Cam Seagrove10! At least I think that was you...

(02-23-2017 06:27 AM)Bucfaithful Wrote:  Damn I couldn't sleep last night but I don't feel tired.

I raise you. I pulled an all nighter (didnt have to but hw pushed me to being awake till 5 in the morning so we know how that goes). Classes are sure fun today...

Also someone told me that they almost called a technical on the crowd with the bull**** chant.(they said the three refs turned around so atleast we got their attention) As someone who was participating is this true?? Also they can throw the crowd out of a game? Maybe if the officiating wasnt so much bull **** i wouldnt have had to help call them out on it.

Why do they always want to T up etsu fans. The socon tourney had me pissed off for a week after they said if anymore plastic balls were thrown on the court that etsu would be accessed a technical.(still dont see why chat fans didnt start chuckin)

Edit: I still am pissed about the socon championship crap.

Honestly, nobody should be throwing anything on the court. I was as upset about the championship game as you are but it looks bad on us fans when we start chucking things on the court in protest.

About the refs.........

I could have written much more than I initially did, but didn't want that to too much color the overall comments I was making, but now that others have weighed in.....

To me (and maybe that's just my experience of having seen so many games), I knew immediately that the first two T's were on Banks and Sibley - and imo they should have been. Not so much because of what had already happened, but because of the *potential* the officials were trying to nip in the bud. What they seemingly ignored was the foul(??)(Long was hoping/thinking it was a held ball, but I think he was dreaming) on Long that caused Sibley to get all hot and bothered. And then Banks was obviously standing up for Long and stepped in when Sibley began jawing and moving towards Long. I just didn't see anything Long did to warrant Sibley getting so upset.

On the *very* critical possession call with 0:52(?) left in regulation, with the refs taking a very long time to watch the replays, and *then* taking a long time to discuss it, I was sure they had seen an ETSU player (A.J.?) just tip the ball before it went out-of-bounds. They even changed the shot clock from 30 seconds, where it had already been set, *back* to 4 seconds, which obviously meant it was going to be Furman's ball. Then, they talked some more, and signaled ETSU ball and put the shot clock back to 30 for ETSU. *That* one I don't understand. My best guess is that they disagreed over what they were watching on the monitor. With the way Furman was (purple - nod to shampoo for that one)-raining long bombs just as the shot clock was expiring all night, they would have been set up for yet another one. Gigantic break/call for the Bucs.

And as to the moment I referred to earlier about Cromer giving HMP an earful, it's (the play - not the earful) on those highlights that Bucfaithful posted, at the 0:52 mark. It looks like HMP was tentative (to be kind) at not helping out when Fowler drove the lane uncontested. I suspect in HMP's mind he thought it was too late and didn't want an unnecessary foul, but that's what *that* was about for those who missed it.

As to the walking calls that were *not* called -- I didn't see a lot of them last night. The most egregious one (by far) was Cromer scoring by driving the lane, right by *2* defenders, one of whom was Acox (who stopped defending because he knew Cromer had used up his steps and was going to have to shoot or pass). Couldn't believe Nico didn't go bananas over that one. My opinion, and I see it all the time, is refs calling walking when it's not there. They *think* they've seen something, but it was too quick for their eyes, so they call it on the principle of "must have been". I was always taught to NEVER call something unless you're absolutely sure you saw it. We see many officials call fouls they think *must* have happened when clearly it was a good block, etc.

I think we all agreed that when we moved to the ASun, the officials were better than they were in the SoCon - at that time. It's been a relief (overall) to see that the quality of officiating has seemed to be much better in the SoCon now than it was 10-15 years ago. Back then, one of the first things we would ALL do was rag on the refs after virtually every game. Much better now. IMO.

(02-23-2017 12:10 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  About the refs.........

To me (and maybe that's just my experience of having seen so many games), I knew immediately that the first two T's were on Banks and Sibley - and imo they should have been. Not so much because of what had already happened, but because of the *potential* the officials were trying to nip in the bud. What they seemingly ignored was the foul(??)(Long was hoping/thinking it was a held ball, but I think he was dreaming) on Long that caused Sibley to get all hot and bothered. And then Banks was obviously standing up for Long and stepped in when Sibley began jawing and moving towards Long. I just didn't see anything Long did to warrant Sibley getting so upset.

They did not have to give either player a technical there. Good officials break that up and give warnings. No reason to give double technicals like that. That whole sequence was trash by the officials. First the double techs and tech on Cromer, then they call a cheap blocking foul on Cromer trying to get through a moving screen and then they call 2 charges in a row on ETSU. If we would have lost, Forbes should have sent in the tape of that sequence to the SoCon for review.

I'm sorry, but that officiating last night was garbage.

(02-23-2017 12:09 PM)Bucster Wrote:  Honestly, nobody should be throwing anything on the court. I was as upset about the championship game as you are but it looks bad on us fans when we start chucking things on the court in protest.

I agree on not chucking stuff on the court but, when you announce in the arena the next thing thrown on the court is a technical on a certain team that is just stupid. Chatt fans had balls too and they just make up some rule that was a disadvantage to us that chatt fans for some reason didnt exploit. If they had announced the next thing thrown on the court was a technical on chatt i would have been stealing alls yalls plastic balls and chucking them. Make stupid statements get stupid results.

(02-23-2017 12:34 PM)brock20 Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 12:10 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  About the refs.........

To me (and maybe that's just my experience of having seen so many games), I knew immediately that the first two T's were on Banks and Sibley - and imo they should have been. Not so much because of what had already happened, but because of the *potential* the officials were trying to nip in the bud. What they seemingly ignored was the foul(??)(Long was hoping/thinking it was a held ball, but I think he was dreaming) on Long that caused Sibley to get all hot and bothered. And then Banks was obviously standing up for Long and stepped in when Sibley began jawing and moving towards Long. I just didn't see anything Long did to warrant Sibley getting so upset.

They did not have to give either player a technical there. Good officials break that up and give warnings. No reason to give double technicals like that. That whole sequence was trash by the officials. First the double techs and tech on Cromer, then they call a cheap blocking foul on Cromer trying to get through a moving screen and then they call 2 charges in a row on ETSU. If we would have lost, Forbes should have sent in the tape of that sequence to the SoCon for review.

I'm sorry, but that officiating last night was garbage.

If you're referring to those two charging calls on Glass almost back-to-back (the second when he rebounded his own missed FT), then the way I saw them both was that they were the correct calls. Glass was leaning in (heavily) both times. The first one was obvious (more than leaning - he was flat out 'charging'), the second less so.

[edit: on the other hand, one blocking call on HMP was clearly wrong, too. They even showed that one on the video board. I think they were ruling he was inside the circle, but the replay showed he wasn't. I HATE that rule anyway, but I think they just blew that one. He looked completely established.]

In terms of *having* to give the players the T's...........well, likely not; they didn't *have* to. But in their minds they wanted to quash the potential for things to get out of hand. Words were said, especially by Banks, and they weren't 'nice' words. There is some discretion there, but I don't think the officials doubted themselves on that. And remember, they took the time to look at the replay in detail.

I know we can never go back in the 2017, but 5 minute reviews of an out-of-bounds call (no matter when) kills all the vibe, energy and momentum any basketball game may have. I understand the reasoning, but it's still very frustrating as a spectator to just pause while the three stooges last night kept talking back and forth.

(02-23-2017 01:05 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  If you're referring to those two charging calls on Glass almost back-to-back (the second when he rebounded his own missed FT), then the way I saw them both was that they were the correct calls. Glass was leaning in (heavily) both times. The first one was obvious (more than leaning - he was flat out 'charging'), the second less so.

They were both bad calls. I was looking right at them. You have to give the offensive guy some space to move around.

(02-23-2017 01:07 PM)ekxixis1984 Wrote:  I know we can never go back in the 2017, but 5 minute reviews of an out-of-bounds call (no matter when) kills all the vibe, energy and momentum any basketball game may have. I understand the reasoning, but it's still very frustrating as a spectator to just pause while the three stooges last night kept talking back and forth.

Absolutely agree. On the other hand, their deliberation on the critical out-of-bounds play could well have been the difference in the game. I hate the time it takes on NFL reviews, too, but I'd MUCH rather the calls be correct.
What I also disagree with is that the game has to be in the last 2 minutes for them to look at the out-of-bounds - type calls. Why is a critical event at 1:59 worthy but one at 2:01 not? I know - we "have to draw a line somewhere" - but if we could have another official who could *QUICKLY* review such plays who was sitting right in front of a monitor, and these things could be decided in less than 30 seconds, then look at most of them. Or give coaches X number of challenges in a game, like football. The stakes are too high (even in college basketball) to not try and get stuff right.

(02-23-2017 01:15 PM)brock20 Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 01:05 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  If you're referring to those two charging calls on Glass almost back-to-back (the second when he rebounded his own missed FT), then the way I saw them both was that they were the correct calls. Glass was leaning in (heavily) both times. The first one was obvious (more than leaning - he was flat out 'charging'), the second less so.

They were both bad calls. I was looking right at them. You have to give the offensive guy some space to move around.

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I was looking right at them, too. And NO, you do not have to give the offensive guy "some space". That's the whole point of playing tight D. You have to give him space IF, and only IF, he's already left his feet and is in the air. That was the case in neither of those instances.

(02-23-2017 01:19 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I was looking right at them, too. And NO, you do not have to give the offensive guy "some space". That's the whole point of playing tight D. You have to give him space IF, and only IF, he's already left his feet and is in the air. That was the case in neither of those instances.

If a player makes contact with the other player just by doing a normal shot move and is not trying to initiate the contact and the defensive player falls down that is not a charge, its a flop. That was the case on both of those calls.

I just now watched the replay of that 7-8 minute sequence and the ref who gave the technicals was bad. There is no other way to put it. There was no need to call the technical as the other 2 refs had already diffused the situation. That ref jumped in and called the techs after it was practically over. Then later he calls that blocking foul on Cromer trying to get through a screen where Acox acted like he had just got shoved by a sumo wrestler. And then he calls those 2 charges that were again major flops that were initiated by the defense.

(02-23-2017 01:19 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 01:15 PM)brock20 Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 01:05 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  If you're referring to those two charging calls on Glass almost back-to-back (the second when he rebounded his own missed FT), then the way I saw them both was that they were the correct calls. Glass was leaning in (heavily) both times. The first one was obvious (more than leaning - he was flat out 'charging'), the second less so.

They were both bad calls. I was looking right at them. You have to give the offensive guy some space to move around.

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I was looking right at them, too. And NO, you do not have to give the offensive guy "some space". That's the whole point of playing tight D. You have to give him space IF, and only IF, he's already left his feet and is in the air. That was the case in neither of those instances.

I honestly thought this might be his next move after those charges

(02-23-2017 01:47 PM)brock20 Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 01:19 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I was looking right at them, too. And NO, you do not have to give the offensive guy "some space". That's the whole point of playing tight D. You have to give him space IF, and only IF, he's already left his feet and is in the air. That was the case in neither of those instances.

If a player makes contact with the other player just by doing a normal shot move and is not trying to initiate the contact and the defensive player falls down that is not a charge, its a flop. That was the case on both of those calls.

I know Glass was not "trying" to initiate the contact, but he did. And those were not flops, imo. Clear contact. (If there wasn't contact, then, of course it would have been a flop. But there *was* contact.) A "normal shot move" can be a violation if there is a defender in the way, which there was in both of those cases.