(02-20-2017 03:58 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:37 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Slow down there son. You're getting way ahead of yourself. I only mentioned Army in passing because they are a mid-major indy. They are in the pool of FBS schools that fit our criteria. You notice I mentioned them last, because I know they are the least likely of the four to accept a SBC invite. I never said anything about Army joining. You notice the bulk of my post was about Liberty and NMSU. Stop picking a fight where there isn't one.

You placed us in the same category as Idaho, UMass and MNSU. Army (and BYU by extension) are not mid-major (that is a basketball term) and in fact are considered by P6 by many conferences. That is a fact, Jack.

There will not be a fight as long as you think clearly on these matters.

What is P6?

(02-18-2017 08:27 PM)bladhmadh Wrote:  It also hurts that they discourage interracial dating. Those views are used against them in recruiting

What? Who hit you with a stupid stick?

I personally don't care one way or the other about Liberty going FBS independent.

If they begin to show that they have a great athletic program by going to the NCAA Tournament in basketball consistently, beating P5 teams in football and cracking the Top 25, and going to the College World Series in baseball... then I will want them in the Sun Belt.

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Army is a dumpster fire.

FBS record

2016: 6-5, with two good upsets over AAC teams and a win at Wake. Good, but not prime rib.
2015: 1-9 vs FBS (only win over a 1 win team). 1-1 vs FCS
2014: 3-7 vs FBS (all 3 wins vs losing records). 1-1 vs FCS including a ROAD loss at a FCS team (who the hell plays at FCS teams????)
2013: 2-9 vs FBS (both wins vs losing record teams). 1-0 vs FCS.
2012: 2-9 vs FBS (both with losing records). 0-1 vs FCS
2011: 2-9 vs FBS (both with losing records) 1-0 vs FCS
2010: 6-6 vs FBS (1 team finished .500, all othes had losing records) 1-0 vs FBS
2009: 4-7 vs FBS (all with awful records). 1-0 vs FCS
2008: 3-8 vs FBS (1 win over a team with a winning record) 0-1 vs FCS
2007: 2-9 vs FBS (all with losing records) 1-0 vs FCS.

FBS record 29-78 in the last 10 years.
FCS record.....7-4.

Dude..in the last 10 years, Army has beaten THREE teams that finished with a winning FBS record

2016 Temple (9-4)
2016 Navy (8-5)
2008 La Tech (8-5)

You lost more games (4) versus FCS than you won versus FBS teams with a winning record.

And I could go back 20 years and it wouldn't look any better for you guys. In the last 20 years, Army has lost 172 football games. Are there any FBS teams that have lost more?

----

Prime Rib? BTW, that national championship SEVENTY years ago is as relevant today as Loyola of Chicago's NCAA basketball championship is today.

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TWO LOSSES in the last 20 years. If I'm calculating your winning percentage correctly during that time frame, only Charlotte, Georgia State, and Eastern Michigan worse winning percentages if we just look back to 1997-2016.

(02-20-2017 03:58 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:37 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Slow down there son. You're getting way ahead of yourself. I only mentioned Army in passing because they are a mid-major indy. They are in the pool of FBS schools that fit our criteria. You notice I mentioned them last, because I know they are the least likely of the four to accept a SBC invite. I never said anything about Army joining. You notice the bulk of my post was about Liberty and NMSU. Stop picking a fight where there isn't one.

You placed us in the same category as Idaho, UMass and MNSU. Army (and BYU by extension) are not mid-major (that is a basketball term) and in fact are considered by P6 by many conferences. That is a fact, Jack.

There will not be a fight as long as you think clearly on these matters.

Army is not considered a P6. Same as Navy in the AAC or Air Force in the MWC is. Lol...Wow...ARMY is P6 prime rib. Lol. They rarely have winning seasons but ...Wow. Hey I admire that school and the students that go there. I am proud of them but athetically they would middle of the pack. Lol.

(02-20-2017 04:56 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:58 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:37 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Slow down there son. You're getting way ahead of yourself. I only mentioned Army in passing because they are a mid-major indy. They are in the pool of FBS schools that fit our criteria. You notice I mentioned them last, because I know they are the least likely of the four to accept a SBC invite. I never said anything about Army joining. You notice the bulk of my post was about Liberty and NMSU. Stop picking a fight where there isn't one.

You placed us in the same category as Idaho, UMass and MNSU. Army (and BYU by extension) are not mid-major (that is a basketball term) and in fact are considered by P6 by many conferences. That is a fact, Jack.

There will not be a fight as long as you think clearly on these matters.

Army is not considered a P6. Same as Navy in the AAC or Air Force in the MWC is. Lol...Wow...ARMY is P6 prime rib. Lol. They rarely have winning seasons but ...Wow. Hey I admire that school and the students that go there. I am proud of them but athetically they would middle of the pack. Lol.

They have a worse FBS record in the last 20 years than all but 4 FBS schools. Ga State, UMass, Charlotte, and Eastern Michigan. They have 170+ losses in the last 20 years, which is just stunning. He's upset because we put them with NMSU and Idaho...but both of those teams have performed better over the last 20 years.

(02-20-2017 03:53 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:28 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Oh good grief. When they still wore one bar face masks or no face mask Army was a big deal. Not anymore. They would have a hard time competing with our top teams year in year out. Army is prime rib...Lol. You are as pompous as your name. Lol...prime rib....fuuuunnnnyyyy.

Define big deal. Our own TV deal, massive ratings for Army-Navy, etc are all trophies that are coveted by the G4.

I knew that I should have placed a disclaimer in my statement that my analysis had nothing to do with skill on the gridiron because of stupid comments like yours.

Simple fact: the Sun Belt is beneath Army (due to prestige, academic standards etc) and that is not my stance.

Enjoy being ground beef.

My name is honoring 4 gridiron legends. (One from Michigan, one from Army, one from Dartmouth and one from Iowa.) I have read extensively on CFB history and I have never come across an all-time great from Arky State in the same breath as those heroes.

Overlander idiot...when you say P5 you know you are talking about athletics right not the school...Lol. Moron. Seems you figured out we don't much respect for today's Army football because that haven't done anything to earn it. That might be middle of this pack in the SBC looking at their record. Ahh your name...any of those heroes less than a hundred years old....Lol. Great players in their day but today probably wouldn't start for any of those schools you mentioned. Of course when you mentioned G4 you lost all credibility. Lol...bless your heart little fella..here we thought we were talking with someone capable of thought. P5....Army....G4..prime rib...lol...moron. You can go back to your mother's basement little fella.

(02-20-2017 03:53 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:28 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Oh good grief. When they still wore one bar face masks or no face mask Army was a big deal. Not anymore. They would have a hard time competing with our top teams year in year out. Army is prime rib...Lol. You are as pompous as your name. Lol...prime rib....fuuuunnnnyyyy.

Define big deal. Our own TV deal, massive ratings for Army-Navy, etc are all trophies that are coveted by the G4.

I knew that I should have placed a disclaimer in my statement that my analysis had nothing to do with skill on the gridiron because of stupid comments like yours.

Simple fact: the Sun Belt is beneath Army (due to prestige, academic standards etc) and that is not my stance.

Enjoy being ground beef.

My name is honoring 4 gridiron legends. (One from Michigan, one from Army, one from Dartmouth and one from Iowa.) I have read extensively on CFB history and I have never come across an all-time great from Arky State in the same breath as those heroes.

G4 = ignernt. I say that with love as a C-130 guy that was helped by the Army and also helped the Army. :)

(02-20-2017 04:03 PM)CardinalBlackTrojan Wrote:  

(02-18-2017 08:27 PM)bladhmadh Wrote:  It also hurts that they discourage interracial dating. Those views are used against them in recruiting

What? Who hit you with a stupid stick?

I personally don't care one way or the other about Liberty going FBS independent.

If they begin to show that they have a great athletic program by going to the NCAA Tournament in basketball consistently, beating P5 teams in football and cracking the Top 25, and going to the College World Series in baseball... then I will want them in the Sun Belt.

You better hope that doesn't happen because they will jump right over the SBC.

(02-20-2017 04:02 PM)CoastalAlum2011 Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:58 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:37 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Slow down there son. You're getting way ahead of yourself. I only mentioned Army in passing because they are a mid-major indy. They are in the pool of FBS schools that fit our criteria. You notice I mentioned them last, because I know they are the least likely of the four to accept a SBC invite. I never said anything about Army joining. You notice the bulk of my post was about Liberty and NMSU. Stop picking a fight where there isn't one.

You placed us in the same category as Idaho, UMass and MNSU. Army (and BYU by extension) are not mid-major (that is a basketball term) and in fact are considered by P6 by many conferences. That is a fact, Jack.

There will not be a fight as long as you think clearly on these matters.

What is P6?

It is a secret club.

Send me $5 and I will give you the password.

(02-20-2017 05:36 PM)troutbummike Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:53 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:28 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Oh good grief. When they still wore one bar face masks or no face mask Army was a big deal. Not anymore. They would have a hard time competing with our top teams year in year out. Army is prime rib...Lol. You are as pompous as your name. Lol...prime rib....fuuuunnnnyyyy.

Define big deal. Our own TV deal, massive ratings for Army-Navy, etc are all trophies that are coveted by the G4.

I knew that I should have placed a disclaimer in my statement that my analysis had nothing to do with skill on the gridiron because of stupid comments like yours.

Simple fact: the Sun Belt is beneath Army (due to prestige, academic standards etc) and that is not my stance.

Enjoy being ground beef.

My name is honoring 4 gridiron legends. (One from Michigan, one from Army, one from Dartmouth and one from Iowa.) I have read extensively on CFB history and I have never come across an all-time great from Arky State in the same breath as those heroes.

G4 = ignernt. I say that with love as a C-130 guy that was helped by the Army and also helped the Army. :)

How about G6?

Thanks for the help!

(02-20-2017 04:13 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Army is a dumpster fire.

FBS record

2016: 6-5, with two good upsets over AAC teams and a win at Wake. Good, but not prime rib.
2015: 1-9 vs FBS (only win over a 1 win team). 1-1 vs FCS
2014: 3-7 vs FBS (all 3 wins vs losing records). 1-1 vs FCS including a ROAD loss at a FCS team (who the hell plays at FCS teams????)
2013: 2-9 vs FBS (both wins vs losing record teams). 1-0 vs FCS.
2012: 2-9 vs FBS (both with losing records). 0-1 vs FCS
2011: 2-9 vs FBS (both with losing records) 1-0 vs FCS
2010: 6-6 vs FBS (1 team finished .500, all othes had losing records) 1-0 vs FBS
2009: 4-7 vs FBS (all with awful records). 1-0 vs FCS
2008: 3-8 vs FBS (1 win over a team with a winning record) 0-1 vs FCS
2007: 2-9 vs FBS (all with losing records) 1-0 vs FCS.

FBS record 29-78 in the last 10 years.
FCS record.....7-4.

Dude..in the last 10 years, Army has beaten THREE teams that finished with a winning FBS record

2016 Temple (9-4)
2016 Navy (8-5)
2008 La Tech (8-5)

You lost more games (4) versus FCS than you won versus FBS teams with a winning record.

And I could go back 20 years and it wouldn't look any better for you guys. In the last 20 years, Army has lost 172 football games. Are there any FBS teams that have lost more?

----

Prime Rib? BTW, that national championship SEVENTY years ago is as relevant today as Loyola of Chicago's NCAA basketball championship is today.

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TWO LOSSES in the last 20 years. If I'm calculating your winning percentage correctly during that time frame, only Charlotte, Georgia State, and Eastern Michigan worse winning percentages if we just look back to 1997-2016.

Tom, you have made me quite sad now. First, a massive headache and now this.

It is actually 3 national championships from over 70 seventy years ago. Something that a Sun Belt team will never have.

And once again, my prime rib comment is referring to our status as an institution and brand name. Not the play on the field. You won't find a bigger critic than me of how Army football was allowed to deteriorate.

(02-20-2017 05:16 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:53 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 03:28 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Oh good grief. When they still wore one bar face masks or no face mask Army was a big deal. Not anymore. They would have a hard time competing with our top teams year in year out. Army is prime rib...Lol. You are as pompous as your name. Lol...prime rib....fuuuunnnnyyyy.

Define big deal. Our own TV deal, massive ratings for Army-Navy, etc are all trophies that are coveted by the G4.

I knew that I should have placed a disclaimer in my statement that my analysis had nothing to do with skill on the gridiron because of stupid comments like yours.

Simple fact: the Sun Belt is beneath Army (due to prestige, academic standards etc) and that is not my stance.

Enjoy being ground beef.

My name is honoring 4 gridiron legends. (One from Michigan, one from Army, one from Dartmouth and one from Iowa.) I have read extensively on CFB history and I have never come across an all-time great from Arky State in the same breath as those heroes.

Overlander idiot...when you say P5 you know you are talking about athletics right not the school...Lol. Moron. Seems you figured out we don't much respect for today's Army football because that haven't done anything to earn it. That might be middle of this pack in the SBC looking at their record. Ahh your name...any of those heroes less than a hundred years old....Lol. Great players in their day but today probably wouldn't start for any of those schools you mentioned. Of course when you mentioned G4 you lost all credibility. Lol...bless your heart little fella..here we thought we were talking with someone capable of thought. P5....Army....G4..prime rib...lol...moron. You can go back to your mother's basement little fella.

Oberlander, you twit.

P5 or P6 (as the AAC and pot stirrers like to say) is more than just athletics. It is branding, institutional status.

Fair enough. I haven't got much respect either. I had the #FireMonken hashtag for the whole year.

Oliphant played in the 1910's. Harmon would be the youngest. WW2 hero to boot. Devine and Oberlander were in the 1920's. I encourage you to look them up!

I never said that they could play today, I think Harmon could, I just picked them for their character and style of play. I like CFB history.

It is amazing how by just writing G4, you folks over here lose it. It is so much fun to write then.

Your insults are cliche. I expect more from the Sun Belt Nationalist. Great tag line by the way.

(02-20-2017 06:43 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 04:13 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Army is a dumpster fire.

FBS record

2016: 6-5, with two good upsets over AAC teams and a win at Wake. Good, but not prime rib.
2015: 1-9 vs FBS (only win over a 1 win team). 1-1 vs FCS
2014: 3-7 vs FBS (all 3 wins vs losing records). 1-1 vs FCS including a ROAD loss at a FCS team (who the hell plays at FCS teams????)
2013: 2-9 vs FBS (both wins vs losing record teams). 1-0 vs FCS.
2012: 2-9 vs FBS (both with losing records). 0-1 vs FCS
2011: 2-9 vs FBS (both with losing records) 1-0 vs FCS
2010: 6-6 vs FBS (1 team finished .500, all othes had losing records) 1-0 vs FBS
2009: 4-7 vs FBS (all with awful records). 1-0 vs FCS
2008: 3-8 vs FBS (1 win over a team with a winning record) 0-1 vs FCS
2007: 2-9 vs FBS (all with losing records) 1-0 vs FCS.

FBS record 29-78 in the last 10 years.
FCS record.....7-4.

Dude..in the last 10 years, Army has beaten THREE teams that finished with a winning FBS record

2016 Temple (9-4)
2016 Navy (8-5)
2008 La Tech (8-5)

You lost more games (4) versus FCS than you won versus FBS teams with a winning record.

And I could go back 20 years and it wouldn't look any better for you guys. In the last 20 years, Army has lost 172 football games. Are there any FBS teams that have lost more?

----

Prime Rib? BTW, that national championship SEVENTY years ago is as relevant today as Loyola of Chicago's NCAA basketball championship is today.

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TWO LOSSES in the last 20 years. If I'm calculating your winning percentage correctly during that time frame, only Charlotte, Georgia State, and Eastern Michigan worse winning percentages if we just look back to 1997-2016.

Tom, you have made me quite sad now. First, a massive headache and now this.

It is actually 3 national championships from over 70 seventy years ago. Something that a Sun Belt team will never have.

And once again, my prime rib comment is referring to our status as an institution and brand name. Not the play on the field. You won't find a bigger critic than me of how Army football was allowed to deteriorate.

Sorry, guy, but if you're gonna come in here and talk smack, expect that you'll have to account for it.

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

There ya go. Liberty will give strict Southern Baptist (especially) families lots of reasons to pressure "Junior" to attend Liberty U, even more so now that LU will be in the "big leagues" thus adding to the possibility of making it to the next level. They will be on the big boy networks as much as any of us due to the body bag games they'll be playing as an independent. LU will be fine I think, and I wish them nothing but the best.

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

RE your cutting on the Belt versus Army, LMFAO - Army wouldn't compete very well at all in this conference, IMO. Now if you're talking about the brand, I agree with your comments, which could be taken multiple ways.

As far as the Ivy League goes, conference-wise, Army could actually compete there but it'll never happen without a huge waiver because Cadets are paid at the E-5 level and the Ivy League doesn't even give athletic scholarships out. As for the ACC - I can't see that happening ever. Yeah, the Army brand is worth money but everybody knows they generally have a crap team that probably belongs more in the FCS Ivy League than they do in any group of FBS schools.

That stated, congrats on finally beating Navy! I was rooting for y'all!

(02-20-2017 08:35 PM)airtroop Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

There ya go. Liberty will give strict Southern Baptist (especially) families lots of reasons to pressure "Junior" to attend Liberty U, even more so now that LU will be in the "big leagues" thus adding to the possibility of making it to the next level. They will be on the big boy networks as much as any of us due to the body bag games they'll be playing as an independent. LU will be fine I think, and I wish them nothing but the best.

So why was LU not particularly successful, much less dominant in FCS?

(02-20-2017 08:45 PM)airtroop Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

RE your cutting on the Belt versus Army, LMFAO - Army wouldn't compete very well at all in this conference, IMO. Now if you're talking about the brand, I agree with your comments, which could be taken multiple ways.

As far as the Ivy League goes, conference-wise, Army could actually compete there but it'll never happen without a huge waiver because Cadets are paid at the E-5 level and the Ivy League doesn't even give athletic scholarships out. As for the ACC - I can't see that happening ever. Yeah, the Army brand is worth money but everybody knows they generally have a crap team that probably belongs more in the FCS Ivy League than they do in any group of FBS schools.

That stated, congrats on finally beating Navy! I was rooting for y'all!

I should have explained the status better in my first post and I have admitted as much in my subsequent posts. Poor skirmish opener.

I think Army could compete in any G5 conference (like Air Force and Navy) and I think our administration is starting to realize dreadful football is a negative (and I hate to use this excuse but the land war in Iraq has hurt as well and terrible coaching decisions). Our recruiting has improved so we will see.

Ivy League: the conference of hypocrisy. They built football into the monster that ravages today but they left it behind. Like the soldier in Beowulf, they woke up the dragon and left others to deal with it. No FCS playoffs but they compete in the NCAA Tournament where real money is made. Seriously, if we somehow dropped to the Ivy League, I would throw Michie into the Hudson.

Thanks! I still think sometimes that it was a dream. A mirage fabricated by desperate dreams.

How many Sun Belt nationalists are there?!

(02-20-2017 09:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 08:35 PM)airtroop Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 11:07 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  Liberty is in a unique position. They have the budget surplus that only the biggest of the big boys can boast. To me, their move up to independence affords them an audition. They have 5 years to say "hey look, we're good...let us in. I know you have your trepidations but see, we've proven we're worthy." And they're hoping that if/when regional realignment occurs someone will have to let them in.

twitter.com/DieselOnRadio

For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

There ya go. Liberty will give strict Southern Baptist (especially) families lots of reasons to pressure "Junior" to attend Liberty U, even more so now that LU will be in the "big leagues" thus adding to the possibility of making it to the next level. They will be on the big boy networks as much as any of us due to the body bag games they'll be playing as an independent. LU will be fine I think, and I wish them nothing but the best.

So why was LU not particularly successful, much less dominant in FCS?

Coaching. Same for any program, IMO.

(02-20-2017 07:15 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 06:43 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 04:13 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 02:56 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(02-20-2017 01:46 PM)Eagleditka Wrote:  For the Sun Belt, we now have the luxury of taking FBS schools instead on FCS moveups if we want. We now have NMSU, Liberty, UMass, and even Army to choose from rather than looking for a reach like EKU or Missouri State. We've been over JMU several times and that doesn't look like its going to happen. Our goal as a conference should be to make this the best mid-major football conference in the country (or at least as close to the AAC/MWC as possible). The two most obvious additions for us, if we ever decide to add again, would be Liberty and NMSU for full membership. The impetus to go to 12 teams is not there now so we don't have to do anything, unless we can prove that both schools add value to the conference.

For Liberty the benefits are money, name recognition, facilities, access to Virginia, political clout, and the potential to be the Baptist BYU.

The drawbacks have been beaten like a dead horse: large online school that allows them to essentially print money, academic standards (which I think is overblown), and of course the religion/science conflict.

For NMSU the benefits are that it is a good academic institution, good basketball and baseball, familiarity with the Sun Belt, and that it has been an established D1 program for a long time.

Drawbacks: location and football is comically inept (hadn't been bowling since 1960)


I think the pros outweigh the cons for both. I like the symmetry both schools add to both divisions. But obviously we don't need to add either. I see this as a post 2019 plan, after Coastal gets settled in. Travel partners would be hard to hammer out. Having two Texas schools in the Olympic sports helps NMSU out even if the distance is still gigantic. Not our fault, unless you're UNM or UTEP, Las Cruces is hard to get to. We essentially act as NMSU's waiting room until MWC has a spot open up. That's fine with me, as long as we get their basketball program in here. With Liberty, you're betting on the fact that with that pile of cash their sitting on, and the increased name recognition they'll get from being FBS, that the talent will follow. There are plenty of Christian families across the South and the rest of the country that have kids that play football and don't have the negative opinion of Liberty that we might have.

Listen, the rest of your post is good stuff and a fine analysis of the situation but Army will never join the Sun Belt. The only conference that I ever see us joining would be the AAC. (One rumor about our AD is he wants us to go to the Ivy League which is why we are scheduling those teams in the future. )

Army is prime rib. The Sun Belt is the bargain shopper. Stay at the Shop n Save.

Army is a dumpster fire.

FBS record

2016: 6-5, with two good upsets over AAC teams and a win at Wake. Good, but not prime rib.
2015: 1-9 vs FBS (only win over a 1 win team). 1-1 vs FCS
2014: 3-7 vs FBS (all 3 wins vs losing records). 1-1 vs FCS including a ROAD loss at a FCS team (who the hell plays at FCS teams????)
2013: 2-9 vs FBS (both wins vs losing record teams). 1-0 vs FCS.
2012: 2-9 vs FBS (both with losing records). 0-1 vs FCS
2011: 2-9 vs FBS (both with losing records) 1-0 vs FCS
2010: 6-6 vs FBS (1 team finished .500, all othes had losing records) 1-0 vs FBS
2009: 4-7 vs FBS (all with awful records). 1-0 vs FCS
2008: 3-8 vs FBS (1 win over a team with a winning record) 0-1 vs FCS
2007: 2-9 vs FBS (all with losing records) 1-0 vs FCS.

FBS record 29-78 in the last 10 years.
FCS record.....7-4.

Dude..in the last 10 years, Army has beaten THREE teams that finished with a winning FBS record

2016 Temple (9-4)
2016 Navy (8-5)
2008 La Tech (8-5)

You lost more games (4) versus FCS than you won versus FBS teams with a winning record.

And I could go back 20 years and it wouldn't look any better for you guys. In the last 20 years, Army has lost 172 football games. Are there any FBS teams that have lost more?

----

Prime Rib? BTW, that national championship SEVENTY years ago is as relevant today as Loyola of Chicago's NCAA basketball championship is today.

ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TWO LOSSES in the last 20 years. If I'm calculating your winning percentage correctly during that time frame, only Charlotte, Georgia State, and Eastern Michigan worse winning percentages if we just look back to 1997-2016.

Tom, you have made me quite sad now. First, a massive headache and now this.

It is actually 3 national championships from over 70 seventy years ago. Something that a Sun Belt team will never have.

And once again, my prime rib comment is referring to our status as an institution and brand name. Not the play on the field. You won't find a bigger critic than me of how Army football was allowed to deteriorate.

Sorry, guy, but if you're gonna come in here and talk smack, expect that you'll have to account for it.

I don't disagree with that. I should have framed and explained my position better in my first post.