(02-07-2017 12:57 PM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  Time to gut the Department of Ed.

Personally, I think it should be totally eliminated. There was once a Department of Health, Education and Welfare.

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:57 PM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  Time to gut the Department of Ed.

THIS!

Let the states manage their own schools.

I could not disagree with this more. We are a country no matter where you live the education should be the same. If you move from Texas to Washington to New York to Mississippi there should be a common system. If it goes to the state, then it can impact that the level of education that one gets. Should a child going to school in one state have less of an education than another child in a different state. We are 1 country not 50.
Do we need major changes yes, I am not sure DeVos is that person and has no experience other than giving money to Republicans for the job it seems. But I am willing to give her a shot, just like all of President Trumps nominees.

(02-07-2017 01:21 PM)HappyAppy Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:46 PM)HappyAppy Wrote:  It's celebrated now when a completely unqualified person with zero experience is put in charge of our schools. On top of that, the only reason they are even in the room is the hundreds of millions of dollars their family has donated to the GOP, but that is somehow "draining the swamp"? How can someone even type that with a straight face?

Given the clusterflock that the supposedly "qualified" education "leaders" have given us over the past 40 years, she would be hard pressed to do worse.

So bring in a reformer with actual experience in public schools. Someone who has seen what is broken and what is working. Nothing wrong with a massive overhaul, but that can be done with a qualified candidate.

I think I'll hire a Golden Retreiver to do my taxes this year. He doesn't know a thing about accounting but it will really shake things up.

If your tax accountants have been as incompetent as the education department, then yea, I'd go with the golden retriever as well.

(02-07-2017 01:25 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:21 PM)HappyAppy Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:46 PM)HappyAppy Wrote:  It's celebrated now when a completely unqualified person with zero experience is put in charge of our schools. On top of that, the only reason they are even in the room is the hundreds of millions of dollars their family has donated to the GOP, but that is somehow "draining the swamp"? How can someone even type that with a straight face?

Given the clusterflock that the supposedly "qualified" education "leaders" have given us over the past 40 years, she would be hard pressed to do worse.

So bring in a reformer with actual experience in public schools. Someone who has seen what is broken and what is working. Nothing wrong with a massive overhaul, but that can be done with a qualified candidate.

I think I'll hire a Golden Retreiver to do my taxes this year. He doesn't know a thing about accounting but it will really shake things up.

If your tax accountants have been as incompetent as the education department, then yea, I'd go with the golden retriever as well.

Incompetent education department? Can you give an example of that?

(02-07-2017 01:05 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:46 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:44 PM)LeFlâneur Wrote:  If I were a union teacher, I'd be afraid; I'd be very afraid, since we will now have an Education Secretary who puts the welfare of the students above the welfare of the teachers.

More swamp draining confirmed.

That is a problem. She created the Charter School system in Michigan, and it is a complete failure and the education in that state is in chaos. Charter schools that are private became more of a for profit identity. Some of them turned out to be scams and we do not want this take place in this country. Yes, we need reforms, but not Devos ways where what happened in Michigan will take place throughout the country. A lot of Republicans got calls to go against Devos. They need to listen to the people, and stop making Trump happy. It is not in the best interest to give Trump everything.

Kind of like Rahm Emmanuel's hand picked leader of the Chicago schools (now in jail for theft). The head of the Atlanta Public Schools would be in jail, but she died before trial. Her lieutenants are all in jail. Next door in DeKalb County, the superintendent Lewis went to jail. All three districts basket cases.

(02-07-2017 01:26 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:25 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:21 PM)HappyAppy Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:46 PM)HappyAppy Wrote:  It's celebrated now when a completely unqualified person with zero experience is put in charge of our schools. On top of that, the only reason they are even in the room is the hundreds of millions of dollars their family has donated to the GOP, but that is somehow "draining the swamp"? How can someone even type that with a straight face?

Given the clusterflock that the supposedly "qualified" education "leaders" have given us over the past 40 years, she would be hard pressed to do worse.

So bring in a reformer with actual experience in public schools. Someone who has seen what is broken and what is working. Nothing wrong with a massive overhaul, but that can be done with a qualified candidate.

I think I'll hire a Golden Retreiver to do my taxes this year. He doesn't know a thing about accounting but it will really shake things up.

If your tax accountants have been as incompetent as the education department, then yea, I'd go with the golden retriever as well.

Incompetent education department? Can you give an example of that?

The results speak for themselves. We are now a country that is results based, not excuse based, not lala unicorn land based, but results based.

(02-07-2017 01:23 PM)Greenroom Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:57 PM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  Time to gut the Department of Ed.

THIS!

Let the states manage their own schools.

I could not disagree with this more. We are a country no matter where you live the education should be the same. If you move from Texas to Washington to New York to Mississippi there should be a common system. If it goes to the state, then it can impact that the level of education that one gets. Should a child going to school in one state have less of an education than another child in a different state. We are 1 country not 50.
Do we need major changes yes, I am not sure DeVos is that person and has no experience other than giving money to Republicans for the job it seems. But I am willing to give her a shot, just like all of President Trumps nominees.

Like they say, you love the Post Office, you would love nationalized schools. Or VA Hospitals?

You seem to have a problem with federalism and local control.

(02-07-2017 01:23 PM)Greenroom Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:57 PM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  Time to gut the Department of Ed.

THIS!

Let the states manage their own schools.

I could not disagree with this more. We are a country no matter where you live the education should be the same. If you move from Texas to Washington to New York to Mississippi there should be a common system.

So the closer government to the parents the less that layer of government should have a say in the education of the kids...

Laboratories of democracy are also laboratories of education.

Quote:If it goes to the state, then it can impact that the level of education that one gets.

And the people of that state can then determine how they want to fix it. Idaho solutions are not the same thing you will need in Mississippi, is not the same thing you need in Arizona.

Quote:Should a child going to school in one state have less of an education than another child in a different state.

That is unavoidable. It does not matter who makes the rules, there will be disparity of result. But with power resting at the local level ships get easier to turn around.

Should one bad decision in Washington hurt *EVERY* school child in America?

Quote:We are 1 country not 50.

We are a national federal union of 50 states. I know that's not very convenient to big government folks but it's what we are.

Quote:Do we need major changes yes

What massive changes to Massachusetts and Minnesota need? They have excellent systems outside of one or two urban districts (and ftr my kids are in one of those districts).

The idea that every state, every school, ever district has the same exact needs and should have one big federal fix is completely incorrect. So one big powerful authority owning every single decision is not going to make schools better for everyone.

It will sink most of the country.

(02-07-2017 01:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:23 PM)Greenroom Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:57 PM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  Time to gut the Department of Ed.

THIS!

Let the states manage their own schools.

I could not disagree with this more. We are a country no matter where you live the education should be the same. If you move from Texas to Washington to New York to Mississippi there should be a common system. If it goes to the state, then it can impact that the level of education that one gets. Should a child going to school in one state have less of an education than another child in a different state. We are 1 country not 50.
Do we need major changes yes, I am not sure DeVos is that person and has no experience other than giving money to Republicans for the job it seems. But I am willing to give her a shot, just like all of President Trumps nominees.

Like they say, you love the Post Office, you would love nationalized schools. Or VA Hospitals?

You seem to have a problem with federalism and local control.

Actually I love the postal system to get mail, and the VA Hospital was very good to my father and grand father before they passed away. I know that not's popular, but my experience is very good with the VA. but you better figure wasting a day since it is the same military hurry up and wait crap that has been going on for decades.

(02-07-2017 01:15 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:05 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  That is a problem. She created the Charter School system in Michigan, and it is a complete failure and the education in that state is in chaos. Charter schools that are private became more of a for profit identity. Some of them turned out to be scams and we do not want this take place in this country. Yes, we need reforms, but not Devos ways where what happened in Michigan will take place throughout the country. A lot of Republicans got calls to go against Devos. They need to listen to the people, and stop making Trump happy. It is not in the best interest to give Trump everything.

According to this research, while not every charter school outperforms the traditional public school,

Quote:"compared to the educational gains that charter students would have had in a traditional public school (TPS), the analysis shows that, on average, students in Michigan charter schools make larger learning gains in both reading and mathematics. Thirty-five percent of the charter schools have significantly more positive learning gains than their TPS counterparts in reading, while two percent of charter schools have significantly lower learning gains. In math, forty-two percent of the charter schools studied outperform their TPS peers and six percent perform worse. These findings position Michigan among the highest performing charter school states CREDO has studied to date."

https://credo.stanford.edu/pdfs/MI_repor...ermark.pdf

I was just about to post that same study...

(02-07-2017 01:38 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:23 PM)Greenroom Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 12:57 PM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  Time to gut the Department of Ed.

THIS!

Let the states manage their own schools.

I could not disagree with this more. We are a country no matter where you live the education should be the same. If you move from Texas to Washington to New York to Mississippi there should be a common system.

So the closer government to the parents the less that layer of government should have a say in the education of the kids...

Laboratories of democracy are also laboratories of education.

Quote:If it goes to the state, then it can impact that the level of education that one gets.

And the people of that state can then determine how they want to fix it. Idaho solution are not the same thing you will need in Mississippi, is not the same thing you need in Arizona.

Quote:Should a child going to school in one state have less of an education than another child in a different state.

That is unavoidable. It does not matter who makes the rules, there will be disparity of result. But with power resting at the local level ships get easier to turn around.

Should one bad decision in Washington hurt *EVERY* school child in America?

Quote:We are 1 country not 50.

We are a national federal union of 50 states. I know that's not very convenient to big government folks but it's what we are.

Quote:Do we need major changes yes

What massive changes to Massachusetts and Minnesota need? They have excellent systems outside of one or two urban districts (and ftr my kids are in one of those districts).

The idea that every state, every school, ever district has the same exact needs and should have one big federal fix is completely incorrect. So one big powerful authority owning every single decision is not going to make schools better for everyone.

It will sink most of the country.

Look I believe that we are 1 country, you want 50 different units that fine. When I served in the Navy, I served 1 flag and not 50 different flags. I think there needs to be basics that every state has, and if the states want to go beyond that fine, but to put it all on the local level is a recipe for disaster IMO.

(02-07-2017 01:43 PM)Greenroom Wrote:  Look I believe that we are 1 country, you want 50 different units that fine. When I served in the Navy, I served 1 flag and not 50 different flags. I think there needs to be basics that every state has, and if the states want to go beyond that fine, but to put it all on the local level is a recipe for disaster IMO.

Education was all at the local level for 200 years and we were doing just fine. The department of education is barely older than the millennials. How great has American education gotten in the last 30 years? eh?

Should all police department, all fire departments, all street crews, in every city, town, and hamlet be run by one agency out of Washington?

Why do we let cities control their own sanitation departments? I mean there should be a missive unyielding group of unaccountable, unelected, bureaucrats to make all those decisions.

I am fine with a very small dept of ed publishing annual guidelines for what qualifies as 4th grade reading, 8th grade math, and the like.

But no money, no bribes, and no teeth.

My kids teachers and I know better for my kids than someone in Washington.

Education in this country is a disaster. Devos has no idea what she is doing. Teachers won't support her, and schools will do their best to work around any actual changes she tries.

Students get left behind in the end again. Like they have ever since Bush Jr implemented no Child Left behind.

(02-07-2017 01:48 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:43 PM)Greenroom Wrote:  Look I believe that we are 1 country, you want 50 different units that fine. When I served in the Navy, I served 1 flag and not 50 different flags. I think there needs to be basics that every state has, and if the states want to go beyond that fine, but to put it all on the local level is a recipe for disaster IMO.

Education was all at the local level for 200 years and we were doing just fine. The department of education is barely older than the millennials. How great has American education gotten in the last 30 years? eh?

Should all police department, all fire departments, all street crews, in every city, town, and hamlet be run by one agency out of Washington?

Why do we let cities control their own sanitation departments? I mean there should be a missive unyielding group of unaccountable, unelected, bureaucrats to make all those decisions.

I am fine with a very small dept of ed publishing annual guidelines for what qualifies as 4th grade reading, 8th grade math, and the like.

But no money, no bribes, and no teeth.

My kids teachers and I know better for my kids than someone in Washington.

Problem is, state run Department of Eds are almost as bad as the Federal one.

The way to ultimately fix the Department of Education is to appoint actual teachers into Education posts. People who have been on the front lines and understand the issues they fight daily. It is not a position that should be handed to someone because they supported your campaign. Unfortunately, both the Democrats and Republicans have used the post for that method.

(02-07-2017 01:50 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  Education in this country is a disaster. Devos has no idea what she is doing. Teachers won't support her, and schools will do their best to work around any actual changes she tries.

Students get left behind in the end again. Like they have ever since Bush Jr implemented no Child Left behind.

Education in this country is not a disaster. What evidence do you have to prove that it is?

(02-07-2017 01:56 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:48 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:43 PM)Greenroom Wrote:  Look I believe that we are 1 country, you want 50 different units that fine. When I served in the Navy, I served 1 flag and not 50 different flags. I think there needs to be basics that every state has, and if the states want to go beyond that fine, but to put it all on the local level is a recipe for disaster IMO.

Education was all at the local level for 200 years and we were doing just fine. The department of education is barely older than the millennials. How great has American education gotten in the last 30 years? eh?

Should all police department, all fire departments, all street crews, in every city, town, and hamlet be run by one agency out of Washington?

Why do we let cities control their own sanitation departments? I mean there should be a missive unyielding group of unaccountable, unelected, bureaucrats to make all those decisions.

I am fine with a very small dept of ed publishing annual guidelines for what qualifies as 4th grade reading, 8th grade math, and the like.

But no money, no bribes, and no teeth.

My kids teachers and I know better for my kids than someone in Washington.

Problem is, state run Department of Eds are almost as bad as the Federal one.

The way to ultimately fix the Department of Education is to appoint actual teachers into Education posts. People who have been on the front lines and understand the issues they fight daily. It is not a position that should be handed to someone because they supported your campaign. Unfortunately, both the Democrats and Republicans have used the post for that method.

Nope. In the business world, if a business in a particular sector is having issues after changes leadership do not improve the business, then often times a new leader and new senior team is brought in from the outside.

What we need is what is best for the kids. We will never get there if the first condition is kissing the ass of the teachers union. If the teachers union is a problem, then it either has to be addressed or killed off.

(02-07-2017 01:57 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:50 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  Education in this country is a disaster. Devos has no idea what she is doing. Teachers won't support her, and schools will do their best to work around any actual changes she tries.

Students get left behind in the end again. Like they have ever since Bush Jr implemented no Child Left behind.

Education in this country is not a disaster. What evidence do you have to prove that it is?

Too much time working in poor school districts dealing with kids who through no fault of their own, have little chance of success, and are not helped by schools completely tied up with corrupt administrations, or legal red tape that make functioning nearly impossible.


Arkansas Department of Education is so bad that the legislature is actually trying to run through a bill that would provide money to families who pull their kids out of the Public School System.

(02-07-2017 01:50 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  Education in this country is a disaster. Devos has no idea what she is doing. Teachers won't support her, and schools will do their best to work around any actual changes she tries.

Sooooo More local control then...

I'm good with that.

(02-07-2017 01:56 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  Problem is, state run Department of Eds are almost as bad as the Federal one.

The way to ultimately fix the Department of Education is to appoint actual teachers into Education posts.

There is a certain validity to that statement. Right now most of the folks calling the shots have EdDs. In my opinion, an EdD is quite possibly the biggest sham that ever existed.

(02-07-2017 02:00 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:56 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:48 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:43 PM)Greenroom Wrote:  Look I believe that we are 1 country, you want 50 different units that fine. When I served in the Navy, I served 1 flag and not 50 different flags. I think there needs to be basics that every state has, and if the states want to go beyond that fine, but to put it all on the local level is a recipe for disaster IMO.

Education was all at the local level for 200 years and we were doing just fine. The department of education is barely older than the millennials. How great has American education gotten in the last 30 years? eh?

Should all police department, all fire departments, all street crews, in every city, town, and hamlet be run by one agency out of Washington?

Why do we let cities control their own sanitation departments? I mean there should be a missive unyielding group of unaccountable, unelected, bureaucrats to make all those decisions.

I am fine with a very small dept of ed publishing annual guidelines for what qualifies as 4th grade reading, 8th grade math, and the like.

But no money, no bribes, and no teeth.

My kids teachers and I know better for my kids than someone in Washington.

Problem is, state run Department of Eds are almost as bad as the Federal one.

The way to ultimately fix the Department of Education is to appoint actual teachers into Education posts. People who have been on the front lines and understand the issues they fight daily. It is not a position that should be handed to someone because they supported your campaign. Unfortunately, both the Democrats and Republicans have used the post for that method.

Nope. In the business world, if a business in a particular sector is having issues after changes leadership do not improve the business, then often times a new leader and new senior team is brought in from the outside.

What we need is what is best for the kids. We will never get there if the first condition is kissing the ass of the teachers union. If the teachers union is a problem, then it either has to be addressed or killed off.

But you can't run schools like you run a business. I business, you keep only the best people and use only the best quality if you want your business to succeed.

Schools cannot simply get rid of or us only the best kids. They have to teach all of them and give all of them a chance to succeed.