(02-07-2017 11:41 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:41 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:38 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:35 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I used to say that the best option was to close them.

Here in Alabama schools like Alabama A&M and Alabama State are largely wastes of public money, while being great gravy trains for minimally competent administrators.

The problem is, where do the kids go?

The answer is nowhere. That's not a good thing.

Even the best students at HBCUs are not usually capable of gaining admission to even regional state schools.

Cutting all of those kids off is not a positive. We must ensure that they can at least attend other state schools.

or introduce them to trades and technical programs in high school. tech school is a good option for lots of kids who don't fit the traditional academic mold. worked wonders for me.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Thats a good plan but we should make damn sure there is flexibility and choice.

Not every kid in high school knows what direction they want their lives to take and it isn't right to lock them into something.

That ability to shift gears and directions is the best thing about our education system.

Some of these schools serve the same purpose as community colleges, but are more expensive and don't do it well.

Yeah, there is an element of "we don't really know what we want to be" in many of these cases.

(02-07-2017 11:48 AM)pcm0103 Wrote:  And what bull$hit is that? The fact that I'm right. How are Republicans any different than what you believe the Democrats aren't doing?

Republicans would prefer not to create a culture of dependency on tax dollars. Poverty used to mean "shame". Now, there's a culture of shameless handouts. I'm fine with the government providing a leg up for people, but not a handout. Remove the dependency on the government and instill a new culture where people can raise themselves up out of poverty through education.

Ben Carson had plans for exactly that when he was running for president. He runs a foundation that provides merit-based scholarships in inner-city schools of all 50 states. Just the mere presence of such scholarships raised the average GPA in classrooms.

We need more of that, not dependency that keeps people from having incentive to improve their lives. The private sector and charities can step in in this area far better than the government ever could. That's how capitalism works. It provides incentives for growth and improvement. Efforts to move towards more socialized education only create mediocrity.

(02-07-2017 11:51 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 11:41 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:41 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:38 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:35 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I used to say that the best option was to close them.

Here in Alabama schools like Alabama A&M and Alabama State are largely wastes of public money, while being great gravy trains for minimally competent administrators.

The problem is, where do the kids go?

The answer is nowhere. That's not a good thing.

Even the best students at HBCUs are not usually capable of gaining admission to even regional state schools.

Cutting all of those kids off is not a positive. We must ensure that they can at least attend other state schools.

or introduce them to trades and technical programs in high school. tech school is a good option for lots of kids who don't fit the traditional academic mold. worked wonders for me.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Thats a good plan but we should make damn sure there is flexibility and choice.

Not every kid in high school knows what direction they want their lives to take and it isn't right to lock them into something.

That ability to shift gears and directions is the best thing about our education system.

Some of these schools serve the same purpose as community colleges, but are more expensive and don't do it well.

Yeah, there is an element of "we don't really know what we want to be" in many of these cases.

They had a purpose when Blacks couldn't get into "white" schools. But they continue to exist even though that's no longer the case.

(02-07-2017 04:14 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  HBCUs have been struggling long before Obama showed up.

While there has often been struggle, the past 6 years or so has been really hard on them.

The Parent PLUS loans were a big part of students getting through the first couple of years, when federal student loans are not enough to cover tuition.

In 2011, the federal government made getting PLUS loans more difficult.

Between 2011 and 2013, according to US News & World Report, there were 45% fewer PLUS loan recipients at HBCU institutions.

These sudden, steep, declines lead a lot of schools to trim staff and they have never recovered.

This all happened on Obama's watch and partly due to actions of the executive branch.

(02-07-2017 09:43 AM)pcm0103 Wrote:  I hope he does but I'll wait and give my opinion when I see the order. Past presidents have said the same thing. Yet nothing changes. HBCU's still get less than other state colleges year after year. It's even worse on the state level. Government funding is just one problem with HBCU's. Enrollment is declining and poor leadership are also major problems with in HBCU's.

This part can not be stressed above. The 2011 PLUS loan changes were a gut punch but the leadership has been awful. They have done nothing to deal with the poorer retention rates and the higher delayed graduation rates.

Quote:Or Apple can pick one poor public school district in Appalachia and make it into the most technologically advanced public school district in the US. Just to see what happens.

Probably the stuff gets stolen for meth money.

(02-07-2017 10:51 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:28 AM)pcm0103 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 02:59 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  When will folks realize that Democrats WANT blacks to struggle......

So when did Republicans stop wanting us to struggle?

Is the emancipation proclamation far enough back for you?

Ouch

(02-07-2017 11:45 AM)pcm0103 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:51 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:28 AM)pcm0103 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 02:59 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  When will folks realize that Democrats WANT blacks to struggle......

So when did Republicans stop wanting us to struggle?

Is the emancipation proclamation far enough back for you?

How about something more recent. That took a war to get that done. Republicans going to war again to help the struggle?

How about supporting charter schools and vouchers which provide more educational choice and better options to people living in failing urban school districts.

Recent enough?

Or... Just for ***** and giggle...

How about Trump saying he wants to help the HBCUs get back on track after the 2011 Obama administration changes to PLUS loans screwed them over.

I know this doesn't have anything to do with HBCU. But people forget that segregation still exists up north, because the original laws were written merely to correct what was happening in the south:

(02-07-2017 12:35 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 11:45 AM)pcm0103 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:51 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:28 AM)pcm0103 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 02:59 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  When will folks realize that Democrats WANT blacks to struggle......

So when did Republicans stop wanting us to struggle?

Is the emancipation proclamation far enough back for you?

How about something more recent. That took a war to get that done. Republicans going to war again to help the struggle?

How about supporting charter schools and vouchers which provide more educational choice and better options to people living in failing urban school districts.

Recent enough?

Or... Just for ***** and giggle...

How about Trump saying he wants to help the HBCUs get back on track after the 2011 Obama administration changes to PLUS loans screwed them over.

Saying and doing is two different things my friend. Since its just for giggles and *****. People say a lot of stuff. I'll believe it when it happens. Which I hope it does. I don't get all excited just because he said he was going to do it.

Oh and Democrats supported charter schools as well. Especially Bernie Sanders.

linking John Oliver won't win you any points in here.

(02-07-2017 10:54 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  How about properly funding public schools so kids of all races who obviously want to attend college are prepared to do so.

Most funded school districts in the country:

Highest expenditures per student[1]
School district per student ($)
Newark Public Schools, New Jersey 30,742
Buffalo Public Schools, New York 29,023
Camden City Public Schools, New Jersey 26,826
DC Department of Education 26,661
East Orange School District, New Jersey 25,190

Is 30K per student, or three quarters of a million dollars per classroom, not enough money?

Quote:The real issue is that in Alabama, parents fled the public schools at integration then defunded the public schools.

Perhaps. But that's not a money problem that's an involvement problem. I went to a Buffalo Public School where I had to be bused across town to help racially balance everything out. My graduating class was about 30% white.

But my mother was on me every time I got a bad mark. Every time I had a spelling test coming up she was on me. Dragged me to shake-sphere in the park, made me learn an orchestra instrument while I wanted to play the guitar.

And she did this while raising 6 other kids....

It's not money guy, it's parenting. So long as we ignore that sad fact, because we can't hurt feelings, then we're not geoing to get any better at serving the urban school districts.

And many of the white schools that were created for the segregation leavers weren't much better than the public schools they fled.

Quote:But you can throw all the money you'd like at HBCUs or at open admissions non-HBCU's and you'll likely see the same results unless the schools address the critical thinking problem.

I love this.. you start by complain about funding and talk yourself into a circle where funding does not fix things.

(02-07-2017 12:41 PM)pcm0103 Wrote:  Saying and doing is two different things my friend. Since its just for giggles and *****. People say a lot of stuff. I'll believe it when it happens. Which I hope it does. I don't get all excited just because he said he was going to do it.

Oh and Democrats supported charter schools as well. Especially Bernie Sanders.

Some democrats, very few.. Most of them are too wound tightly around the figure of the NEA and teachers Unions to do anything substantial. Be honest with yourself here.

The *VAST* majority of push for vouchers and charters come from republicans on the right.

(02-07-2017 10:35 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I used to say that the best option was to close them.

Here in Alabama schools like Alabama A&M and Alabama State are largely wastes of public money, while being great gravy trains for minimally competent administrators.

The problem is, where do the kids go?

The answer is nowhere. That's not a good thing.

Even the best students at HBCUs are not usually capable of gaining admission to even regional state schools.

Cutting all of those kids off is not a positive. We must ensure that they can at least attend other state schools.

Make them a joint ventures like Alabama State-Auburn. Roll the Auburn-Montgomery into Alabama State where the poor white kids could get into Auburn at Alabama State.

Alabama A&M could do a joint venture with UAH to keep that school going.

Jackson State should stay.

I am not sure what to do with Southern U. They are over shadowed by LSU.

I heard that Grambling State would be rolled into La. Tech.

I do think a couple of Mississippi schools should merge together. Mississippi Valley State could be gone. I think that could be merged into Alcorn State.

(02-07-2017 11:41 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:41 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:38 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:35 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I used to say that the best option was to close them.

Here in Alabama schools like Alabama A&M and Alabama State are largely wastes of public money, while being great gravy trains for minimally competent administrators.

The problem is, where do the kids go?

The answer is nowhere. That's not a good thing.

Even the best students at HBCUs are not usually capable of gaining admission to even regional state schools.

Cutting all of those kids off is not a positive. We must ensure that they can at least attend other state schools.

or introduce them to trades and technical programs in high school. tech school is a good option for lots of kids who don't fit the traditional academic mold. worked wonders for me.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Thats a good plan but we should make damn sure there is flexibility and choice.

Not every kid in high school knows what direction they want their lives to take and it isn't right to lock them into something.

That ability to shift gears and directions is the best thing about our education system.

Some of these schools serve the same purpose as community colleges, but are more expensive and don't do it well.

How is that true?

Community colleges do not offer B.S. degrees, these HBCUs do.

Don't confuse competition for students with overlap in purpose.

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 11:41 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:41 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:38 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:35 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I used to say that the best option was to close them.

Here in Alabama schools like Alabama A&M and Alabama State are largely wastes of public money, while being great gravy trains for minimally competent administrators.

The problem is, where do the kids go?

The answer is nowhere. That's not a good thing.

Even the best students at HBCUs are not usually capable of gaining admission to even regional state schools.

Cutting all of those kids off is not a positive. We must ensure that they can at least attend other state schools.

or introduce them to trades and technical programs in high school. tech school is a good option for lots of kids who don't fit the traditional academic mold. worked wonders for me.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Thats a good plan but we should make damn sure there is flexibility and choice.

Not every kid in high school knows what direction they want their lives to take and it isn't right to lock them into something.

That ability to shift gears and directions is the best thing about our education system.

Some of these schools serve the same purpose as community colleges, but are more expensive and don't do it well.

How is that true?

Community colleges do not offer B.S. degrees, these HBCUs do.

Don't confuse competition for students with overlap in purpose.

They serve the same purpose in that they are open admission for people who really aren't ready for a typical 4 year school. And most of them flunk out or drop out so the fact that they offer a BS degree is frequently just that!

And actually some community colleges here is Georgia do offer a limited number of 4 year degrees.

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:35 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I used to say that the best option was to close them.

Here in Alabama schools like Alabama A&M and Alabama State are largely wastes of public money, while being great gravy trains for minimally competent administrators.

The problem is, where do the kids go?

The answer is nowhere. That's not a good thing.

Even the best students at HBCUs are not usually capable of gaining admission to even regional state schools.

Cutting all of those kids off is not a positive. We must ensure that they can at least attend other state schools.

Make them a joint ventures like Alabama State-Auburn. Roll the Auburn-Montgomery into Alabama State where the poor white kids could get into Auburn at Alabama State.

Alabama A&M could do a joint venture with UAH to keep that school going.

Jackson State should stay.

I am not sure what to do with Southern U. They are over shadowed by LSU.

I heard that Grambling State would be rolled into La. Tech.

I do think a couple of Mississippi schools should merge together. Mississippi Valley State could be gone. I think that could be merged into Alcorn State.

Some make sense (like Jackson St.). Some don't. Southern U-Baton Rouge does serve a little different purpose than LSU-Baton Rouge. But Southern U. New Orleans and Southern U. Shreveport are really not justified. Grambling really isn't justified anymore.

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:35 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I used to say that the best option was to close them.

Here in Alabama schools like Alabama A&M and Alabama State are largely wastes of public money, while being great gravy trains for minimally competent administrators.

The problem is, where do the kids go?

The answer is nowhere. That's not a good thing.

Even the best students at HBCUs are not usually capable of gaining admission to even regional state schools.

Cutting all of those kids off is not a positive. We must ensure that they can at least attend other state schools.

Make them a joint ventures like Alabama State-Auburn. Roll the Auburn-Montgomery into Alabama State where the poor white kids could get into Auburn at Alabama State.

Alabama A&M could do a joint venture with UAH to keep that school going.

Jackson State should stay.

I am not sure what to do with Southern U. They are over shadowed by LSU.

I heard that Grambling State would be rolled into La. Tech.

I do think a couple of Mississippi schools should merge together. Mississippi Valley State could be gone. I think that could be merged into Alcorn State.

That's not a workable solution.

The larger public schools don't want those kids and the HBCUs are run by administrators that love their cushy jobs, and that's to say noting of the fact that there are alumni etc that are proud of what they have built, no matter how modest.

You can take a look at the common data sets BTW and see that AUM and Alabama State are not comparable.

(02-07-2017 01:52 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:00 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 11:41 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:41 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 10:38 AM)Hood-rich Wrote:  or introduce them to trades and technical programs in high school. tech school is a good option for lots of kids who don't fit the traditional academic mold. worked wonders for me.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

Thats a good plan but we should make damn sure there is flexibility and choice.

Not every kid in high school knows what direction they want their lives to take and it isn't right to lock them into something.

That ability to shift gears and directions is the best thing about our education system.

Some of these schools serve the same purpose as community colleges, but are more expensive and don't do it well.

How is that true?

Community colleges do not offer B.S. degrees, these HBCUs do.

Don't confuse competition for students with overlap in purpose.

They serve the same purpose in that they are open admission for people who really aren't ready for a typical 4 year school. And most of them flunk out or drop out so the fact that they offer a BS degree is frequently just that!

And actually some community colleges here is Georgia do offer a limited number of 4 year degrees.

I can't argue with the fact that the majority go and end up with nothing at both of those but I still feel that the HBCU serves a different purpose than your run of the mill community college.

So what's the executive order?