Trying to make sense of what is happening, and this thought came to mind:

We have been going from one extreme to the other since at least 2000, and this is where constant extremism ultimately leads. There is a way for this to end well, and that is for congress to assert itself, reverse the flow of power from congress to the executive branch over the last eight decades, and restore a balance of power. But that requires that both sides of the aisle have to work together, and I really don't see the likes of Schumer and Pelosi burying the hatchet with the likes of McConnell and Ryan. Maybe what needs to happen is for the rank and file in congress to assert themselves.

I have congressional contacts on both sides of the aisle who have told me that probably 90% of congress actually get along and understand the issues, and could resolve most of them if only we could lock the president and congressional leaders up long enough for them to do it. For example, back during the shutdown/sequester time frame, I heard from both sides of the aisle that the solution was easy if only we could get Obama and Reid and Pelosi and Boehner and McConnell to quit posturing and shut up. And that has been going on for some time through multiple administrations. I really think congress has to take back control. I'd be perfectly happy if the presidency became a figurehead, and in fact I think that's the best possible outcome.

I think our system is flawed and largely to blame. I thought going from smoke-filled rooms to primaries was a good idea when it happened. But those primaries have become dominated by the loony extremes on both sides. Back when the political bosses made the decisions in back room, electability was always the primary concern (or else they were out of a job) so they tended to choose moderates who had a chance to appeal to the most voters. Now the chances of a moderate getting either party's nomination are pretty much zero, zilch, nada. If we're not going to be able to elect mainstream presidents, maybe the best answer is to take power back from the president and return it to congress.

(02-05-2017 09:31 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Trying to make sense of what is happening, and this thought came to mind:

We have been going from one extreme to the other since at least 2000, and this is where constant extremism ultimately leads. There is a way for this to end well, and that is for congress to assert itself, reverse the flow of power from congress to the executive branch over the last eight decades, and restore a balance of power. But that requires that both sides of the aisle have to work together, and I really don't see the likes of Schumer and Pelosi burying the hatchet with the likes of McConnell and Ryan. Maybe what needs to happen is for the rank and file in congress to assert themselves.

I have congressional contacts on both sides of the aisle who have told me that probably 90% of congress actually get along and understand the issues, and could resolve most of them if only we could lock the president and congressional leaders up long enough for them to do it. For example, back during the shutdown/sequester time frame, I heard from both sides of the aisle that the solution was easy if only we could get Obama and Reid and Pelosi and Boehner and McConnell to quit posturing and shut up. And that has been going on for some time through multiple administrations. I really think congress has to take back control. I'd be perfectly happy if the presidency became a figurehead, and in fact I think that's the best possible outcome.

I think our system is flawed and largely to blame. I thought going from smoke-filled rooms to primaries was a good idea when it happened. But those primaries have become dominated by the loony extremes on both sides. Back when the political bosses made the decisions in back room, electability was always the primary concern (or else they were out of a job) so they tended to choose moderates who had a chance to appeal to the most voters. Now the chances of a moderate getting either party's nomination are pretty much zero, zilch, nada. If we're not going to be able to elect mainstream presidents, maybe the best answer is to take power back from the president and return it to congress.

Congress has had really bad leaders. Pelosi is an extreme partisan and stupid on top of that. Reid is a party first guy and the ultimate jerk. McConnell and Boehner were weak and to borrow a term from the Shawshank Redemption, "Institutionalized." Obama was a narcissistic jerk. Few things dribbling out now about how even Democrats complained about his arrogance.

One thing that would help would be term limits. Right now with seniority, some of these people have too much power and can't be replaced. Term limits puts new blood in.

This would also deal with a second problem, lack of accountability. 7 of the 8 years Obama was in office there was no budget. I don't believe that had EVER happened before. People should have fired Congressmen and Congressmen should have fired their leaders. And Congress WANTS to send authority to the executive branch and administrative agencies. They don't want to take tough votes.

I think your smoke filled room anology was rejected overwhelmingly this cycle. Clinton was the smoke filled room candidate and lost to the worst candidate the Republicans have ever produced. Jeb Bush was a great governor, great person and would have been IMO a great president and never got traction. Graham, Christie, Kasich, Perry, Walker, Jindal, etc. got even less traction.

The people in the smoke filled room or the DC/NYC echo chamber have missed what has been going on outside their circle. Trump, the billionaire from NYC and Bernie, the hippie from Vermont who never got a real job, somehow managed to "get it" when nobody else did.

Reagan got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

George HW Bush got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

Bill Clinton got things done with a frequently Republican House and Republican Senate.

George W. Bush got things done with a frequently Democratic House and Democratic Senate.

Obama rarely got things done even when he had overwhelming majorities.
Jimmy Carter rarely got things done and he always had overwhelming majorities.

Richard Nixon even got things done with overwhelming minorities.

Its about leadership. Obama was terrible. He had charisma with crowds but was a disaster on the individual level.

(02-05-2017 09:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  One thing that would help would be term limits. Right now with seniority, some of these people have too much power and can't be replaced. Term limits puts new blood in.

Yes and no. They put a new name on the door. But if Congressman Bob is only there six years, when Congressman Fred takes over he's going to depend on Professional Aide Kathy to tell him what the bill on his desk really means, Kathy who's been there for 30 years in different offices. And no one elected Kathy.

To make term limits work - and I fully agree that people like The Turtle should have been zoo exhibits decades ago - there needs to be some means to keep an unelected shadow network of professional staffers from becoming the real Congress.

(02-05-2017 09:48 AM)bullet Wrote:  Reagan got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

George HW Bush got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

Bill Clinton got things done with a frequently Republican House and Republican Senate.

George W. Bush got things done with a frequently Democratic House and Democratic Senate.

Obama rarely got things done even when he had overwhelming majorities.
Jimmy Carter rarely got things done and he always had overwhelming majorities.

Richard Nixon even got things done with overwhelming minorities.

Its about leadership. Obama was terrible. He had charisma with crowds but was a disaster on the individual level.

Hindsight always makes the past look better.

Reagan "got things done" by cutting a "you spend all you want on squishy social toys and I'll spend all I want on toys that go boom" deal, racking up gigantic debt.

W "got things done" by starting endless wars that still aren't resolved, and calling it patriotism.

HW "got things done" by failing to read his own lips.

Clinton got impeached over a blow job, which is sort of the antithesis of getting things done with Congress.

(02-05-2017 09:55 AM)58-56 Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 09:48 AM)bullet Wrote:  Reagan got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

George HW Bush got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

Bill Clinton got things done with a frequently Republican House and Republican Senate.

George W. Bush got things done with a frequently Democratic House and Democratic Senate.

Obama rarely got things done even when he had overwhelming majorities.
Jimmy Carter rarely got things done and he always had overwhelming majorities.

Richard Nixon even got things done with overwhelming minorities.

Its about leadership. Obama was terrible. He had charisma with crowds but was a disaster on the individual level.

Hindsight always makes the past look better.

Reagan "got things done" by cutting a "you spend all you want on squishy social toys and I'll spend all I want on toys that go boom" deal, racking up gigantic debt.

W "got things done" by starting endless wars that still aren't resolved, and calling it patriotism.

HW "got things done" by failing to read his own lips.

Clinton got impeached over a blow job, which is sort of the antithesis of getting things done with Congress.

You may not have liked what they got done, but they did.

Clinton did welfare reform and sentencing reform. They reduced the welfare rolls and reduced crime.

W got everyone behind the war on terror despite the hatred of him by the Democrats which was almost as bad as Trump and got his bi-partisan No Child Left Behind Bill.

HW got the whole world behind him on the First Gulf War and did it with minimal allied casualties. He also oversaw the peaceful end of the Cold War and dissolution of the Soviet Union. He did reach budget deals to get some of what he and the Democrats wanted.

Reagan was a great president. His deficits quickly turned to surpluses once he spent the Soviet Union into oblivion.

The rank and file keep putting the Schumer's and Pelosi's and McConnell's and Ryan's in controll though.

And yes, The President shouldn't be much more than a figurehead. They keep taking more and more power that ain't their's and it needs taken back. Limited is what a President should be. Lead, set a mood and direction and let the Congress and Judiciary do their jobs.

Schumer is an improvement. Ryan is a big improvement.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre...n-millions

Peripheral to the topic, but this article definitely addresses the rejection of smoke filled rooms.

For as long as I can remember, the primary public responsibility of the Senate and House minority leaders has been to be an attack dog against the majority. It's what they do. And both sides do it.

I'll never forget Dick Gebhardt announcing that Republicans were going to starve children when they approved a 3% increase in school lunch programs instead of the previous year's 4%.

We see it right now with Dems having said before the nominee was announced, that they would filibuster whoever Trump nominated for SCOTUS. The opposition party has become the obstructionist party.

And the base demands that their side doesn't back down and expects their team to ratchet up the obstruction. Tit for tat.

Frankly I don't see this changing.

(02-05-2017 10:12 AM)bullet Wrote:  Schumer is an improvement. Ryan is a big improvement.

I think Schumer is a truly despicable human being. I have so wished that somehow he would have gotten caught in the scandals involving his buddy Spitzer or his protege Weiner. But the other day, I saw a book by him in a used book store for a dollar. I like to keep up with what the enemy is thinking, particularly when it doesn't involve paying royalties to said enemy. Guess what, I actually found several ideas that I like. If I were in congress, I could work with him to make them happen. That's the sort of stuff that I think could save us.

(02-05-2017 10:24 AM)LeFlâneur Wrote:  For as long as I can remember, the primary public responsibility of the Senate and House minority leaders has been to be an attack dog against the majority. It's what they do. And both sides do it.

I'll never forget Dick Gebhardt announcing that Republicans were going to starve children when they approved a 3% increase in school lunch programs instead of the previous year's 4%.

We see it right now with Dems having said before the nominee was announced, that they would filibuster whoever Trump nominated for SCOTUS. The opposition party has become the obstructionist party.

And the base demands that their side doesn't back down and expects their team to ratchet up the obstruction. Tit for tat.

Frankly I don't see this changing.

Typically its been the whip who does that rather than the leader. Much like normally the VP gets nasty while the president stays above the fray (reversed in Trump administration).

(02-05-2017 10:26 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 10:12 AM)bullet Wrote:  Schumer is an improvement. Ryan is a big improvement.

I think Schumer is a truly despicable human being. I have so wished that somehow he would have gotten caught in the scandals involving his buddy Spitzer or his protege Weiner. But the other day, I saw a book by him in a used book store for a dollar. I like to keep up with what the enemy is thinking, particularly when it doesn't involve paying royalties to said enemy. Guess what, I actually found several ideas that I like. If I were in congress, I could work with him to make them happen. That's the sort of stuff that I think could save us.

Schumer is despicable compared to Harry Reid?

it's not going to change and frankly I don't have a problem with that. as long as the left keeps electing left wing socialists we'll get the same results.

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Politics has gotten so nasty that few normal, well balanced people are willing to do it.

Can you imagine putting yourself up to that type of scrutiny and your family hearing those attacks all the time?

Look at what we got for president? HRC, a seriously vile delusional human being; Bernie, a worthless hippy who just recently moved out of his parent's basement; Kasich, perhaps the most delusional one in the bunch as he sometimes couldn't even finish 3rd in a 3 man race, Carson, who thought he could be president without bothering to read up on things simply because he was a brilliant surgeon, Rubio who couldn't even manage his own personal finances, Cruz who thought being hated by everyone was a virtue and, of course, Trump.

(02-05-2017 11:26 AM)bullet Wrote:  Politics has gotten so nasty that few normal, well balanced people are willing to do it.

Can you imagine putting yourself up to that type of scrutiny and your family hearing those attacks all the time?

Look at what we got for president? HRC, a seriously vile delusional human being; Bernie, a worthless hippy who just recently moved out of his parent's basement; Kasich, perhaps the most delusional one in the bunch as he sometimes couldn't even finish 3rd in a 3 man race, Carson, who thought he could be president without bothering to read up on things simply because he was a brilliant surgeon, Rubio who couldn't even manage his own personal finances, Cruz who thought being hated by everyone was a virtue and, of course, Trump.

and trump is doing what he promised so far. imagine that.

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(02-05-2017 11:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 10:26 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 10:12 AM)bullet Wrote:  Schumer is an improvement. Ryan is a big improvement.

I think Schumer is a truly despicable human being. I have so wished that somehow he would have gotten caught in the scandals involving his buddy Spitzer or his protege Weiner. But the other day, I saw a book by him in a used book store for a dollar. I like to keep up with what the enemy is thinking, particularly when it doesn't involve paying royalties to said enemy. Guess what, I actually found several ideas that I like. If I were in congress, I could work with him to make them happen. That's the sort of stuff that I think could save us.

Schumer is despicable compared to Harry Reid?

The devil himself is not more despicable than Harry Reid.

(02-05-2017 09:48 AM)bullet Wrote:  Reagan got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

George HW Bush got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

Bill Clinton got things done with a frequently Republican House and Republican Senate.

George W. Bush got things done with a frequently Democratic House and Democratic Senate.

Obama rarely got things done even when he had overwhelming majorities.
Jimmy Carter rarely got things done and he always had overwhelming majorities.

Richard Nixon even got things done with overwhelming minorities.

Its about leadership. Obama was terrible. He had charisma with crowds but was a disaster on the individual level.

Obama had a Congress that swore on day one that they would oppose him. And now the Democrats are likely to do the same to Trump. The GOP sealed our fate when they allowed the extreme right to take over their party. They laid the framework for how the exteme wings ofour country can take over. Watch and see how it will happen again with Trump.

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(02-05-2017 11:31 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 09:48 AM)bullet Wrote:  Reagan got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

George HW Bush got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

Bill Clinton got things done with a frequently Republican House and Republican Senate.

George W. Bush got things done with a frequently Democratic House and Democratic Senate.

Obama rarely got things done even when he had overwhelming majorities.
Jimmy Carter rarely got things done and he always had overwhelming majorities.

Richard Nixon even got things done with overwhelming minorities.

Its about leadership. Obama was terrible. He had charisma with crowds but was a disaster on the individual level.

Obama had a Congress that swore on day one that they would oppose him. And now the Democrats are likely to do the same to Trump. The GOP sealed our fate when they allowed the extreme right to take over their party. They laid the framework for how the exteme wings ofour country can take over. Watch and see how it will happen again with Trump.

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He had dim majorities in both the House and the Senate his first two years and pissed both away only passing the truly horrible ACA.

(02-05-2017 11:45 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 11:31 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 09:48 AM)bullet Wrote:  Reagan got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

George HW Bush got things done with a Democratic House and frequently a Democratic Senate.

Bill Clinton got things done with a frequently Republican House and Republican Senate.

George W. Bush got things done with a frequently Democratic House and Democratic Senate.

Obama rarely got things done even when he had overwhelming majorities.
Jimmy Carter rarely got things done and he always had overwhelming majorities.

Richard Nixon even got things done with overwhelming minorities.

Its about leadership. Obama was terrible. He had charisma with crowds but was a disaster on the individual level.

Obama had a Congress that swore on day one that they would oppose him. And now the Democrats are likely to do the same to Trump. The GOP sealed our fate when they allowed the extreme right to take over their party. They laid the framework for how the exteme wings ofour country can take over. Watch and see how it will happen again with Trump.

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He had dim majorities in both the House and the Senate his first two years and pissed both away only passing the truly horrible ACA.

facts 2.0

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