(02-07-2017 09:25 AM)etsubuc Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 07:07 AM)Wadood Abides Wrote:  I really expected more. Last season wasn't all that great, but it was acceptable, because it was the first of a rebuilding year and we had an inherited roster. This year, we might be seeing the ceiling on this system.

That is my fear also. We haven't been to the NCAA Tournament in 7 years and the fans are getting antsy. Wofford has been to the tournament 3 times since we have been. This was supposed to be the year, and any objective observer can look at the makeup of this team and see some rough years ahead.

Don't agree with this at all. These are the best two seasons ETSU has had in 7 years. I see no reason not to think an upward trajectory is occurring. The culture has certainly shifted, and although play can be inconsistent, these are better teams than we've seen since the Tiggs, Pigram, Smith teams.

And an inherited roster last year??????? Forbes recruited Guynn, Cromer, and Bello. That's the two leading scorers on last years team and I believe the 4th leading scorer as well. Please tell, how is that inherited in any way, shape or form?

(02-07-2017 10:31 AM)Running_Fool15 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 09:25 AM)etsubuc Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 07:07 AM)Wadood Abides Wrote:  I really expected more. Last season wasn't all that great, but it was acceptable, because it was the first of a rebuilding year and we had an inherited roster. This year, we might be seeing the ceiling on this system.

That is my fear also. We haven't been to the NCAA Tournament in 7 years and the fans are getting antsy. Wofford has been to the tournament 3 times since we have been. This was supposed to be the year, and any objective observer can look at the makeup of this team and see some rough years ahead.

Don't agree with this at all. These are the best two seasons ETSU has had in 7 years. I see no reason not to think an upward trajectory is occurring. The culture has certainly shifted, and although play can be inconsistent, these are better teams than we've seen since the Tiggs, Pigram, Smith teams.

And an inherited roster last year??????? Forbes recruited Guynn, Cromer, and Bello. That's the two leading scorers on last years team and I believe the 4th leading scorer as well. Please tell, how is that inherited in any way, shape or form?

Thank you!

My fear is the roster turnover. Consistently losing half of your team is not good for long term viability. I agree that this has overall been a successful 2 years. But at the end of the day, my measure of success is the NCAA or NIT. We can go to the CIT and win a game or two, but that just doesn't move the needle.

(02-07-2017 11:40 AM)etsubuc Wrote:  My fear is the roster turnover. Consistently losing half of your team is not good for long term viability. I agree that this has overall been a successful 2 years. But at the end of the day, my measure of success is the NCAA or NIT. We can go to the CIT and win a game or two, but that just doesn't move the needle.

Kind of this.

Forbes has put together a good team, they are not a great team. Flipping the roster every year is not building something, every year is it on separate team. Honestly I am not sure Forbes is trying to build something lasting, I think he is looking to throw up a lot of wins,
use his connections and move up. Good for him but it would gut ETSU if that happens, we will be in a lot worse place then with Bartow.
Also what happens if Forbes has to many misses in a class, a couple of more Lufile and Holley.

But how would the fan base feel about taking a step back? Actually recruiting some freshmen and taking some lumps for a couple of years. That probably wouldn't go to well. Not sure what the answer is.
They came close last year, reloaded and at the moment seem to be falling short of the lofty goals set for them by some on this board.
If the fail again this year, it is not a case of learn from the mistakes and get better next year it will be bring in a whole new team and try again. Rinse and Repeat.

(02-07-2017 10:31 AM)Running_Fool15 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 09:25 AM)etsubuc Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 07:07 AM)Wadood Abides Wrote:  I really expected more. Last season wasn't all that great, but it was acceptable, because it was the first of a rebuilding year and we had an inherited roster. This year, we might be seeing the ceiling on this system.

That is my fear also. We haven't been to the NCAA Tournament in 7 years and the fans are getting antsy. Wofford has been to the tournament 3 times since we have been. This was supposed to be the year, and any objective observer can look at the makeup of this team and see some rough years ahead.

Don't agree with this at all. These are the best two seasons ETSU has had in 7 years. I see no reason not to think an upward trajectory is occurring. The culture has certainly shifted, and although play can be inconsistent, these are better teams than we've seen since the Tiggs, Pigram, Smith teams.

And an inherited roster last year??????? Forbes recruited Guynn, Cromer, and Bello. That's the two leading scorers on last years team and I believe the 4th leading scorer as well. Please tell, how is that inherited in any way, shape or form?

Don't intentionally misread what I wrote. I said that finishing as we did last year was acceptable because it was his first year on the job and he had an inherited roster. An inherited roster shouldn't be misconstrued to say that every single position was a holdover, that never happens anywhere. It was to say that he had to largely work with whatever talent was already here, even if it didn't fit his desired skillset or ability plus he had a late start on recruiting. Even the one-offs like Guyn and Bello, who were great contributors, didn't have the advantage of working with the coaching staff for very long.

The statement about an inherited roster was to excuse the episodic underperformances and depth issues last year.

For THIS year, most of the roster is Forbes recruited, including three starters. The guys who were here already (AJM, DB, IB) have had going-on two years to develop in the Forbes style. He owns it now.

SO, when we lost at Furman and lost at Wofford and we let Greensborough come into Freedom Hall and beat us, I don't feel as gracious and forgiving as I did with a first year rebuild job.

It isn't that I expect to win every game, but these are worrisome lapses from a team that is senior-laden and has superior overall talent to all but Chattanooga from an objective standard.

(02-07-2017 12:28 PM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 11:40 AM)etsubuc Wrote:  My fear is the roster turnover. Consistently losing half of your team is not good for long term viability. I agree that this has overall been a successful 2 years. But at the end of the day, my measure of success is the NCAA or NIT. We can go to the CIT and win a game or two, but that just doesn't move the needle.

Honestly I am not sure Forbes is trying to build something lasting, I think he is looking to throw up a lot of wins,
use his connections and move up. Good for him but it would gut ETSU if that happens, we will be in a lot worse place then with Bartow.......

.......If the fail again this year, it is not a case of learn from the mistakes and get better next year it will be bring in a whole new team and try again. Rinse and Repeat.

This is my suspicion, too. (Although I definitely disagree that we'd be in a worse place than with bartow.) I don't think Forbes 'wants' to be here indefinitely, or even more than 3-4 years, if that. His "reload with jucos" method is working, if not perfectly. He's showing that he can be successful as a head coach at the D-I level. In fact, I'll bet he gets some offers after this season, just maybe not the top ones he's hoping for. But if Greg Marshall goes somewhere big (after a presumed good year, especially if it includes a couple more NCAA wins), then I think Forbes would be a top candidate there AND would take it if offered. (Moderately large "if".) He's an ambitious guy - no way around that. And ETSU is just not his dream job; it's just not. But I'm very thankful he's our coach. And I hope Dick Sander is still here whenever the Forbes ship goes "bon voyage". That is to some extent a "safety net", and should temper his leaving. Should.

We have high expectations here - because of the success we've known in the past - and he knows that, and is not afraid of it.
It's hard to say we're not happy with 18-6 (16-6 in 'real' games), because 80-85% of the D-1 programs around the country would be. But it's also hard to say we're tickled blue, as we all saw the athletic prowess 15 months ago at last year's Bluenanza, and knew what the possibilities were. We're somewhere close to expectations, probably, AND assuming we don't fold up from here on out. But we're not fully realizing our "hopes", lofty though those were.

(02-07-2017 12:30 PM)Wadood Abides Wrote:  It isn't that I expect to win every game, but these are worrisome lapses from a team that is senior-laden and has superior overall talent to all but Chattanooga from an objective standard.

That is another way to say what I'm thinking, too. *Especially* with the vibe I thought I detected last night, both on the court and on the bench. Hope I'm wrong about that, but something just seemed different and 'off'.

posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  This is my suspicion, too. (Although I definitely disagree that we'd be in a worse place than with bartow.) .

Well Lets say Forbes leaves after this season. We have 1 freshman who I doubt would stay around, not sure he will even if Forbes stays.
We have 1 recruit for next year, if he stays committed and doesn't seek a release or just transfer anyway.
Yeah I think a new coach coming in with virtually no team would be worse then what Forbes got from Bartow.

(02-07-2017 01:51 PM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  

posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  This is my suspicion, too. (Although I definitely disagree that we'd be in a worse place than with bartow.) .

Well Lets say Forbes leaves after this season. We have 1 freshman who I doubt would stay around, not sure he will even if Forbes stays.
We have 1 recruit for next year, if he stays committed and doesn't seek a release or just transfer anyway.
Yeah I think a new coach coming in with virtually no team would be worse then what Forbes got from Bartow.

Well, yeah, it might be worse (in terms of wins and losses) for one year, but with bartow there was no hope going forward. None. That had been permanently erased. We now have Dick Sander who has a (nearly) golden touch, at least so far. I can live with a year of turmoil and turnover if we have Sander picking our new coach. Not to mention we have all the changes and new optimism, upgraded facility (although I'm one who thought the Dome was just fine, although many didn't), etc., etc. If Forbes leaves in 6-9 weeks from right now (it could happen), we'll still be better off than we were two years ago. Without question. Do you not remember the LONG YEARS of suffering? (Yes, I know you do.)

I'll take hope at a brighter future, even with having to go through temporary turmoil, over a mediocre present and literally hopeless future. You and I (and 90% of Buc fans) know we had a 'ceiling' with bartow that wasn't ever going to be raised.

(02-07-2017 02:15 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:51 PM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  

posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  This is my suspicion, too. (Although I definitely disagree that we'd be in a worse place than with bartow.) .

Well Lets say Forbes leaves after this season. We have 1 freshman who I doubt would stay around, not sure he will even if Forbes stays.
We have 1 recruit for next year, if he stays committed and doesn't seek a release or just transfer anyway.
Yeah I think a new coach coming in with virtually no team would be worse then what Forbes got from Bartow.

Well, yeah, it might be worse (in terms of wins and losses) for one year, but with bartow there was no hope going forward. None. That had been permanently erased. We now have Dick Sander who has a (nearly) golden touch, at least so far. I can live with a year of turmoil and turnover if we have Sander picking our new coach. Not to mention we have all the changes and new optimism, upgraded facility (although I'm one who thought the Dome was just fine, although many didn't), etc., etc. If Forbes leaves in 6-9 weeks from right now (it could happen), we'll still be better off than we were two years ago. Without question. Do you not remember the LONG YEARS of suffering? (Yes, I know you do.)

I'll take hope at a brighter future, even with having to go through temporary turmoil, over a mediocre present and literally hopeless future. You and I (and 90% of Buc fans) know we had a 'ceiling' with bartow that wasn't ever going to be raised.

See Highlighted.. Forbes would leave the incoming coach in a worse place then he got from Bartow and unless the new coach uses (successfully) Forbes method of restocking it will take more then 1 year to recover. Not EVEN sure what we are arguing about.

With very few exceptions it can be said that this team will play a half of basketball for fans...doesn't matter to them which half, just pick one and they'll play it for you!

Yes sir fans, just pick a half, any half...

They are a very talented group of individuals that have won a number of games based on talent alone.

As I have posted before, so far they are all hat and no cowboy. I beg them to prove me wrong but right now they more closely resemble the over hyped team that included Junior Floyd, Tony Patterson and Geoff Herman (a 9-5 conference team that bowed out in the SoCon semis to UTC).

Playing half a game will most likely result in 3 more losses. Team, I implore you to FOCUS, prove me wrong!

BTW, before newcomers to the forum label me as a Johnny come lately I have been a season ticket holder for more than 25 years. Someone who at one time was a regular contributor to the forum. Yep, someone who cares.

(02-07-2017 02:19 PM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 02:15 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 01:51 PM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  

posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  This is my suspicion, too. (Although I definitely disagree that we'd be in a worse place than with bartow.) .

Well Lets say Forbes leaves after this season. We have 1 freshman who I doubt would stay around, not sure he will even if Forbes stays.
We have 1 recruit for next year, if he stays committed and doesn't seek a release or just transfer anyway.
Yeah I think a new coach coming in with virtually no team would be worse then what Forbes got from Bartow.

Well, yeah, it might be worse (in terms of wins and losses) for one year, but with bartow there was no hope going forward. None. That had been permanently erased. We now have Dick Sander who has a (nearly) golden touch, at least so far. I can live with a year of turmoil and turnover if we have Sander picking our new coach. Not to mention we have all the changes and new optimism, upgraded facility (although I'm one who thought the Dome was just fine, although many didn't), etc., etc. If Forbes leaves in 6-9 weeks from right now (it could happen), we'll still be better off than we were two years ago. Without question. Do you not remember the LONG YEARS of suffering? (Yes, I know you do.)

I'll take hope at a brighter future, even with having to go through temporary turmoil, over a mediocre present and literally hopeless future. You and I (and 90% of Buc fans) know we had a 'ceiling' with bartow that wasn't ever going to be raised.

See Highlighted.. Forbes would leave the incoming coach in a worse place then he got from Bartow and unless the new coach uses (successfully) Forbes method of restocking it will take more then 1 year to recover. Not EVEN sure what we are arguing about.

Well, I don't even call it "arguing".....

The thing is.....I'm *assuming* that whoever new Sander would bring it might likely employ the same strategy that Forbes has. It seems the way of the world these days. That said, I actually originally wrote "a year or two" instead of "one year", but changed it on a difficult internal decision. Close call, and would depend on how good a recruiter we got and what contacts he had. I decided to be optimistic because of Sander's track record.

That said, I definitely still stand by preferring hope over lack of it.

(02-07-2017 02:22 PM)BucDoctor Wrote:  BTW, before newcomers to the forum label me as a Johnny come lately I have been a season ticket holder for more than 25 years. Someone who at one time was a regular contributor to the forum. Yep, someone who cares.

Any poster who would doubt BucDoctor's cred would simply be wrong.

God. I hate coming to this board after a win. I hate coming to this board after a loss. Overreactions to both ends.

I believe with how inconsistent this team, that we have, has been this year, it will be a tough task to go down to asheville and win 3 straight games. And that is what mostly matters at this point (longish shot at regular season still). I hope forbes can work out some of the kinks. Also I agree with most of the posters that are saying this is not Forbes dream job or any where close, but it will take somewhere special for him to get out of here.

I fear for the tourney because our bigs will get worn out. Perea cant play many minutes and gets worn out fast. Acox from furman, 33 from wofford, tuoyo any of them could turn our days into bad ones.

This team has talent, sometimes effort. Passion is absent.

(02-07-2017 05:31 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I believe with how inconsistent this team, that we have, has been this year, it will be a tough task to go down to asheville and win 3 straight games. And that is what mostly matters at this point (longish shot at regular season still). I hope forbes can work out some of the kinks. Also I agree with most of the posters that are saying this is not Forbes dream job or any where close, but it will take somewhere special for him to get out of here.

I fear for the tourney because our bigs will get worn out. Perea cant play many minutes and gets worn out fast. Acox from furman, 33 from wofford, tuoyo any of them could turn our days into bad ones.

Actually against Chatt it was Tuoyo, not Perea, that wore down.

Basically, my point is, why are we any less capable of winning this tournament than any other team? That seems to be the common consensus right now which is confusing to me. True, we aren't head and shoulders over any of the top 3-4 teams (Although on our best day I DO feel like ETSU is the best team). BUT, I also don't see why ETSU can't win this conference. They've beaten the preseason favorite and split with Wofford. I believe it's likely they beat UNCG and Furman and end up splitting with Chatt. Basically, I expect four losses and splitting with the top four teams. In fact, in a 3 day tourney, I like our chances over most teams due to our depth. Am I crazy here?

(02-08-2017 09:14 AM)Running_Fool15 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 05:31 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I believe with how inconsistent this team, that we have, has been this year, it will be a tough task to go down to asheville and win 3 straight games. And that is what mostly matters at this point (longish shot at regular season still). I hope forbes can work out some of the kinks. Also I agree with most of the posters that are saying this is not Forbes dream job or any where close, but it will take somewhere special for him to get out of here.

I fear for the tourney because our bigs will get worn out. Perea cant play many minutes and gets worn out fast. Acox from furman, 33 from wofford, tuoyo any of them could turn our days into bad ones.

Actually against Chatt it was Tuoyo, not Perea, that wore down.

Basically, my point is, why are we any less capable of winning this tournament than any other team? That seems to be the common consensus right now which is confusing to me. True, we aren't head and shoulders over any of the top 3-4 teams (Although on our best day I DO feel like ETSU is the best team). BUT, I also don't see why ETSU can't win this conference. They've beaten the preseason favorite and split with Wofford. I believe it's likely they beat UNCG and Furman and end up splitting with Chatt. Basically, I expect four losses and splitting with the top four teams. In fact, in a 3 day tourney, I like our chances over most teams due to our depth. Am I crazy here?

As someone said earlier (or maybe in another thread), Furman's schedule from now to the tournament favors them as far as "winning the conference". Yeah, we could still win the tournament IMO.

(02-08-2017 09:25 AM)seagrove10 Wrote:  

(02-08-2017 09:14 AM)Running_Fool15 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 05:31 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I believe with how inconsistent this team, that we have, has been this year, it will be a tough task to go down to asheville and win 3 straight games. And that is what mostly matters at this point (longish shot at regular season still). I hope forbes can work out some of the kinks. Also I agree with most of the posters that are saying this is not Forbes dream job or any where close, but it will take somewhere special for him to get out of here.

I fear for the tourney because our bigs will get worn out. Perea cant play many minutes and gets worn out fast. Acox from furman, 33 from wofford, tuoyo any of them could turn our days into bad ones.

Actually against Chatt it was Tuoyo, not Perea, that wore down.

Basically, my point is, why are we any less capable of winning this tournament than any other team? That seems to be the common consensus right now which is confusing to me. True, we aren't head and shoulders over any of the top 3-4 teams (Although on our best day I DO feel like ETSU is the best team). BUT, I also don't see why ETSU can't win this conference. They've beaten the preseason favorite and split with Wofford. I believe it's likely they beat UNCG and Furman and end up splitting with Chatt. Basically, I expect four losses and splitting with the top four teams. In fact, in a 3 day tourney, I like our chances over most teams due to our depth. Am I crazy here?

As someone said earlier (or maybe in another thread), Furman's schedule from now to the tournament favors them as far as "winning the conference". Yeah, we could still win the tournament IMO.

They can't put two good halves of basketball together, 3 days worth?
I guess they can do it but I haven't seen much to make me believe it.

(02-08-2017 09:40 AM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  

(02-08-2017 09:25 AM)seagrove10 Wrote:  

(02-08-2017 09:14 AM)Running_Fool15 Wrote:  

(02-07-2017 05:31 PM)BucFan1244 Wrote:  I believe with how inconsistent this team, that we have, has been this year, it will be a tough task to go down to asheville and win 3 straight games. And that is what mostly matters at this point (longish shot at regular season still). I hope forbes can work out some of the kinks. Also I agree with most of the posters that are saying this is not Forbes dream job or any where close, but it will take somewhere special for him to get out of here.

I fear for the tourney because our bigs will get worn out. Perea cant play many minutes and gets worn out fast. Acox from furman, 33 from wofford, tuoyo any of them could turn our days into bad ones.

Actually against Chatt it was Tuoyo, not Perea, that wore down.

Basically, my point is, why are we any less capable of winning this tournament than any other team? That seems to be the common consensus right now which is confusing to me. True, we aren't head and shoulders over any of the top 3-4 teams (Although on our best day I DO feel like ETSU is the best team). BUT, I also don't see why ETSU can't win this conference. They've beaten the preseason favorite and split with Wofford. I believe it's likely they beat UNCG and Furman and end up splitting with Chatt. Basically, I expect four losses and splitting with the top four teams. In fact, in a 3 day tourney, I like our chances over most teams due to our depth. Am I crazy here?

As someone said earlier (or maybe in another thread), Furman's schedule from now to the tournament favors them as far as "winning the conference". Yeah, we could still win the tournament IMO.

They can't put two good halves of basketball together, 3 days worth?
I guess they can do it but I haven't seen much to make me believe it.

Not a bad point. However, what other team in the conference has looked unbeatable? It's pretty even between 3-5 teams. I could see ETSU, Furman, Chatt, UNCG, or Wofford getting hot. However, I think Chatt's, Wofford's, and UNCG's lack of depth will eventually hurt them. Personally, I think it ends up ETSU and Furple in the title game.