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CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #11
RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
Well first of all, ranking high school players is bull___. It's a way to profit off of message board talk, basically.

But if you accept the idea of ranking high school players, and if you accept the following "composite" ranking: http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Footbal...amRankings


Then here are some comments:

- Oklahoma was #8 in the nation. http://oklahoma.247sports.com/Season/201...ll/Commits
Their class includes plenty of highly ranked ("4 star") players from Texas.

- Texas A&M was #12 in the nation (yes, I know it's no longer in the Big 12 ... it's just for comparison) http://tamu.247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/Commits
Their class includes plenty of highly ranked ("4 star") players from Texas. Also, interestingly to me, from Florida.

- Texas was #26 in the nation http://texas.247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/Commits
Their class includes plenty of highly ranked ("4 star") players from Texas.



So as should be obvious, to me it doesn't amount to a hill of beans that Texas and Oklahoma didn't land any of these "5 star" uber recruits from Texas.

In my opinion, such players are vastly over-hyped, have well bought into the BS that surrounds them, thinking they're the next coming of a 20x Pro-Bowler, and that they should be starting immediately and winning the Heisman.


Give me "3 star" players, that the coaches build up into a cohesive unit of young men who fight for each other and have each others' backs, any day of the week. 07-coffee3


(02-02-2017 11:29 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  But do expansion issues really affect how potential recruits view Texas, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, Baylor, and TCU? Or Oklahoma St? I wonder if the spread offense and no defense strategies in the leagues are more to blame? I can see conference instability maybe affecting the lower tier teams in the conference, but not the top teams or the ones based in Texas.

I would think the same.

As far as the spread offenses, it looks like the "top" players in Texas were mostly defensive. I see one back. Possible as a RB, you might not be interested in playing in a Big 12 offense ... but then again, sometimes those wide open schemes actually do quite well in rushing yards.
02-02-2017 12:41 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #12
RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
(02-02-2017 11:29 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  But do expansion issues really affect how potential recruits view Texas, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, Baylor, and TCU? Or Oklahoma St? I wonder if the spread offense and no defense strategies in the leagues are more to blame? I can see conference instability maybe affecting the lower tier teams in the conference, but not the top teams or the ones based in Texas.

I don't think the spread hurts recruiting Texas for those schools. Most high schools in Texas are running the spread already so it would reason the players would go to a system they are familiar with. In addition, these top recruits are going to places like Texas A&M, Ohio State , Notre Dame, Arizona State and FSU where they are running a form of the spread offense also (correct me if I am wrong, but also is LSU switching to the spread under their new staff?).
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 01:41 PM by CliftonAve.)
02-02-2017 01:31 PM
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RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
When you look at it compared to the past, there are really just three things that stand out:

1) Texas had a bad year, getting only 10 of top 100 in Texas (rivals). Last year they got 17 and they got 15 the year before. In 2007 they got 22. But 3 straight losing seasons for only the 2nd time in school history and changing coaches will do that to you.

2) Non-traditional schools got a lot of recruits. The SEC and Pac 12 were pretty similar to past years. But there were 36 going to schools other than Big 12 schools and schools from neighboring states (like Arkansas and LSU). Out of 6 previous years I have the data on, the highest previously was 25. Its dribbled among a lot of schools, but its notable that the Big 10 got 12. Out of those previous years, there was only one year when the Big 10 got more than 4.

3) Perhaps the only thing really concerning, especially if the pattern continues, was the very top of the list. The top 10 went to FSU, Stanford, Ohio St., Ohio St., Notre Dame, LSU, Ohio St., Oklahoma, Arizona St. and USC. 7 went to schools that don't typically pick up top players in Texas (ND will periodically and LSU and OU do regularly). And Urban Meyer is doing what Nick Saban has done and expanded his recruiting territory. Alabama actually didn't pick off top blue chips like they have the last couple of years. They got 3 Texans, but none in the top 20.
02-02-2017 01:39 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #14
RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
(02-02-2017 12:41 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Well first of all, ranking high school players is bull___. It's a way to profit off of message board talk, basically.

But if you accept the idea of ranking high school players, and if you accept the following "composite" ranking: http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Footbal...amRankings


Then here are some comments:

- Oklahoma was #8 in the nation. http://oklahoma.247sports.com/Season/201...ll/Commits
Their class includes plenty of highly ranked ("4 star") players from Texas.

- Texas A&M was #12 in the nation (yes, I know it's no longer in the Big 12 ... it's just for comparison) http://tamu.247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/Commits
Their class includes plenty of highly ranked ("4 star") players from Texas. Also, interestingly to me, from Florida.

- Texas was #26 in the nation http://texas.247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/Commits
Their class includes plenty of highly ranked ("4 star") players from Texas.



So as should be obvious, to me it doesn't amount to a hill of beans that Texas and Oklahoma didn't land any of these "5 star" uber recruits from Texas.

In my opinion, such players are vastly over-hyped, have well bought into the BS that surrounds them, thinking they're the next coming of a 20x Pro-Bowler, and that they should be starting immediately and winning the Heisman.


Give me "3 star" players, that the coaches build up into a cohesive unit of young men who fight for each other and have each others' backs, any day of the week. 07-coffee3


(02-02-2017 11:29 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  But do expansion issues really affect how potential recruits view Texas, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, Baylor, and TCU? Or Oklahoma St? I wonder if the spread offense and no defense strategies in the leagues are more to blame? I can see conference instability maybe affecting the lower tier teams in the conference, but not the top teams or the ones based in Texas.

I would think the same.

As far as the spread offenses, it looks like the "top" players in Texas were mostly defensive. I see one back. Possible as a RB, you might not be interested in playing in a Big 12 offense ... but then again, sometimes those wide open schemes actually do quite well in rushing yards.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...son-020116

Quote:Power 5 teams (of which there are 65) that consistently recruit Top 20 classes have a 60 percent chance of becoming a Top 20 program and a 35 percent chance of regularly inhabiting the Top 10.

By contrast, Power 5 teams that finish outside the Top 20 in recruiting have a lower than 18 percent chance of fielding Top 20 teams and just a 6.7 percent chance of reaching the Top 10.

But keep thinking that recruiting doesn't matter.
02-02-2017 01:53 PM
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p23570
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RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
Recruiting is important but doesn't' guarantee anything, look at Texas. Some schools just under/over achieve. For every Texas there is a KSU who takes slow white farm kids and consistently beats schools with more talent.


Another example is Oklahoma State. They never get top 10 classes but they win more games than all but a handful of p-5 teams the last 5-10 years. With numerous 10 win seasons.

At the end of the day there are about a dozen schools who are more than likely going to fill the 4 bowl spots. We might see an occasional Washington or MSU but for the most part it will be the same schools every season.
02-02-2017 02:09 PM
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Post: #16
RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
(02-02-2017 02:09 PM)p23570 Wrote:  Recruiting is important but doesn't' guarantee anything, look at Texas. Some schools just under/over achieve. For every Texas there is a KSU who takes slow white farm kids and consistently beats schools with more talent.


Another example is Oklahoma State. They never get top 10 classes but they win more games than all but a handful of p-5 teams the last 5-10 years. With numerous 10 win seasons.

At the end of the day there are about a dozen schools who are more than likely going to fill the 4 bowl spots. We might see an occasional Washington or MSU but for the most part it will be the same schools every season.

That's true. But recruiting is half of the formula for success. The other half is in having a coach that can develop, rather than just utilize, that raw talent. Those may be rarer than 5 star studs. But, it is why Saban coupled with recruiting has led to current string of Alabama successes and why Meyer is keeping pace in Columbus.
02-02-2017 02:35 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #17
RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
(02-02-2017 12:11 PM)p23570 Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 11:28 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 10:49 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Hypothetically speaking, if the Big 12 broke up, would the current members improve their Texas recruiting in a new conference home. I assume Texas could possibly, especially if Herman is as successful on the field as he was at UH and Oklahoma obviously is always a player. Would Oklahoma State, for example, improve their Texas recruiting if they were in the SEC? What about Kansas or Iowa State in the B10.

One could argue those schools would fare worse in their new potential conference homes, far removed from a Texas-centric league.

That's a really good question. Texas and Oklahoma could easily improve their recruiting with a new logo on the jersey. Whether it was SEC or Big 10 really wouldn't matter. The top brands are suffering only from not being in a top brand conference.

But, the others? I think West Virginia would do better if they were in a conference with Florida ties, so they could improve their situation with a move, if another conference was interested. But just look at Missouri and Nebraska to answer the gist of your question. Both have suffered in recruiting since joining other conferences.

So, what's the answer here? If you are closely associated with a state that has oodles of recruits (Texas and OU are both tied to Texas recruiting directly) then matching the conference branding of your recruiting rivals (this year L.S.U., A&M, and Ohio State) would probably help you keep those kids at home. However if you are extant to the recruiting grounds merely changing conferences probably would not help you at all and may even hurt. Missouri this year finished only ahead of Vanderbilt in recruiting inside the SEC. Nebraska (once a top 5 recruiter) finished barely inside the top 20 nationally.

I'm not sure I agree with that. OU has it's opportunites to get players but we simply dont' have the kind of alumni who attempt to influence recruiting or administration who tolerates that kind of stuff which I think is going to be an issue no matter what conference we are in. It's fun for people to run around and claim the Big 12 sky is falling but making a case that the Big 12 is holding OU back is quite difficult considering how things have gone the last few years.

Texas can't really blame the Big 12 either. They have had top recruiting classes even when they are terrible so even talent really isn't the issue for them. The Big 12 certainly isn't' holding them back financially so I'm not really sure how that case can be made either.

You brought up Nebraska who is another perfect example of a school who left yet recruiting really hasn't improved not has on field performance. I think OU has more to lose by leaving it's alumni base in Dallan than is has to gain by writing PAC, B1G, or SEC on the jersey. In fact I doubt we woud have had a playoff appearance and all the NY6 bowls if we were in another p-5 conference so I think you could make the case that being in another conference might actually hurt our recruiting, not help. I think FSU and Clemson are in similar positions as they do better in the ACC winning the conference every season as opposed to being in the SEC and likely not winning CC's nearly as often.

Conference perception is cyclical, we've seen the ACC and B1G go through this and now the PAC and Big 12 are going through the same although I will say the B1G and SEC looked pretty average during bowl season.

Only on Big 12 message boards do you guys hype being clean. In reality, and I know because I looked into violations for 20 years, your recruiting is not very different than that of other conferences and their top programs. I do think SMU stung the psyche of the Texas schools a bit when they were leveled in the '80's and OU is far cleaner than it was under Switzer, but your folks still play with the big boys in recruiting.

Most schools now play by a different set of rules when it comes to finding another school in violation. They don't call the NCAA they simply notify that school and the school if truly caught drops their recruitment of that particular athlete. Nobody gets nailed by an extremely arbitrary NCAA and life goes on for both. Most coaches agree these days that a program and sanctions aren't worth 1 athlete, no matter how good he may be. You can spot some of these with these last minute flips. It doesn't account for all of them, but there's smoke behind a lot of them.

If Oklahoma joined the SEC along with another school or two from the Big 12 you would lose no advantage at all in Dallas, but you would gain by a brand change in conferences. Your schedule would by and large remain the same as it is today with regards to key games. What you would gain is some access in Florida, Georgia and Louisiana (three excellent recruiting grounds) and you would reacquire your clout in Texas by negating the Aggies SEC connection advantage.

The Big 12 is not just going through a cycle. It is presently locked into a competitive disadvantage that as revenue disparity grows will become fatal. You can't continue the trajectory you currently have with regards to recruits, access to championships, attendance, and scheduling and remain competitive at the top levels.

BTW I disagree with your bowl assessments. The SEC and Big 10 didn't have even an average year. The Big 10 soiled the sheets and the SEC did as well by our standards.
02-02-2017 02:53 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
Houston got recruits better than some Big 12 schools the year before. But, as it is, there are schools not in the P5 are getting bigger with fan support, and some of them got jerked around by the Big 12. G5 schools can't be ignored and could bite the behinds on the P5 and the networks.
02-02-2017 03:32 PM
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p23570
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RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
I wish I agreed with yo JR and the old OU was a dirty program but it truly upsets me how clean this program is run. Quite frankly we need a few more bagmen and more alumni willing to get involved with that stuff as well as an administration who knows when to look away. I am not here pretending to be holier than thou and I certainly embrace the OU history before Stoops but OU is not doing what it needs to do to land these 5 star kids, and that involves $.

OU loses a lot of exposure in Dallas by going SEC unless it involves friends which is unlikely, for one we would never play anywhere close aside from Bryan and OOC. Not to mention we would not have won nearly as many CC's and made it to nearly as many big bowls. There is a point in a conference where the balance of schools is out of whack and the SEC needs to keep adding more Missouri's and aTm's as opposed to OU's and UT's. There just isn't enough room for all these great programs in one conference. I personally think the SEC would be better off going to pods with OSU and WVU to help Tennessee and LSU get back to winning something on a regular basis. OU with 1-2 CC's the last decade and 1-2 NY6 appearances is a much different situation than winning a CC every other year or more and going to a NY6 bowl most years never hurts recruiting or fan interest. That is lost in the SEC for schools like FSU, Clemson, OU, and UT. More is not always better.

I was trying to be nice about bowls but in the end I didn't' see much difference in bowls aside from Bama and Clemson. Everybody else looked fairly well matched. I felt the same way OOC. P-5 conferences didn't really look much better than g-5 and in some cases even FCS schools. I don't buy into the conference superiority complex. There are a few elite teams and then everybody else. This year there were only 2 elite teams.
02-02-2017 03:40 PM
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p23570
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RE: CBS: Big 12 continues to struggle, start with recruiting Texas
(02-02-2017 03:32 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Houston got recruits better than some Big 12 schools the year before. But, as it is, there are schools not in the P5 are getting bigger with fan support, and some of them got jerked around by the Big 12. G5 schools can't be ignored and could bite the behinds on the P5 and the networks.

You should have picked a different school if you wanted ot talk fan support. Houston is terrible.

Nobody was jerked around by the Big 12 when it comes right down to it. G-5 will never bite the behinds of the networks of p-5. The system has been purposely set up for them to not have any access to the playoff.

To put this in perspective Houston averages about 3,500 people for MBB games and about 500 for most WBB games. That is not p-5 support in any way and never will be.
02-02-2017 03:45 PM
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