What we already know...

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...c-in-2016/

ACC coaching has improved across the board in the past 3 years and that has been the difference. Can't think of one hire in that span that wasn't an improvement while the SEC has made some questionable coaching changes.

(01-25-2017 09:25 AM)CharmCityTiger Wrote:  ACC coaching has improved across the board in the past 3 years and that has been the difference. Can't think of one hire in that span that wasn't an improvement while the SEC has made some questionable coaching changes.

And plus the QB in this league is exceptional...look at like this...you have the Heisman Winner, Davey O'Brien, Unitas and Manning Award winning QB & the 3rd Team All ACC QB could be the 1st QB off the Board in the 2017 NFL Draft.

Not to mention the signal callers at Miami, Florida State, Virginia Tech and Pitt...this league has some dudes at that position....

The ACC is the best!

That was quite a column.

The QB slate of 2016 is obviously not sustainable, but it would be nice if the ACC became THE league for QB prospects. If Watson and Trubinsky both go high and the other guys get drafted well, that will help.

I found this incredibly interesting:

-------
One former SEC coach, who also worked in the ACC, said he sees more ACC coaches with greater authority over their program than in the SEC. By that, the coach means teams have so many more staff members now who influence players -- player personnel, analysts, strength coaches, nutritionists, psychologists, etc. -- that it's changed what the authority of the SEC head coach once meant in a program.

"I think players today have to live in a domain where they get a consistent message, and there's only one place in the SEC where I see a player talk like his head coach [Alabama]," said the coach, who asked to remain anonymous. "There is complete sovereignty with everything that touches a player at Alabama. Dabo has sovereignty at Clemson.

"I think a lot of money has been put in the hands of SEC ADs to put their football coaches in a lot less control than what Nick Saban's got. Not a lot of executives really understand what's going on. On every given Saturday, there's only about a seven-point swing in a game. How fine does the edge have to be honed to be a dominant football team? Right now, the SEC is extremely diluted in mediocrity."
------

I've never heard anything like that expressed before. It actually poses an interesting scenario in which the ACC's *ahem* "laid back" approach to football actually could be a strength. If you get the right guy, it's a lot more plausible to see ACC schools basically stepping back and letting them do their jobs and build programs. According to this source, Dabo has that. I have to imagine Cutcliff has that. Jimbo didn't always have that, but as a result of the LSU flirtations, he has that now.

I sense that VT is really in on Fuente, and should be in that mindset after being that way with Beamer all those years. Richt probably has the gravitas to at least start with that benefit of the doubt.

Think about the nonsense that Auburn is constantly dealing with, even now, with authority battles. What LSU has gone through. All across the SEC ADs and boosters have their fingers in personnel. I just heard that at Florida, Charlie Weiss was basically imposed on Will Muschamp in an effort to fix the offense.

If this quote is right, and this is a big part of modern football, it does have interesting implications.

(01-25-2017 01:45 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  The QB slate of 2016 is obviously not sustainable, but it would be nice if the ACC became THE league for QB prospects. If Watson and Trubinsky both go high and the other guys get drafted well, that will help.
"I think a lot of money has been put in the hands of SEC ADs to put their football coaches in a lot less control than what Nick Saban's got. Not a lot of executives really understand what's going on. On every given Saturday, there's only about a seven-point swing in a game. How fine does the edge have to be honed to be a dominant football team? Right now, the SEC is extremely diluted in mediocrity."

I've never heard anything like that expressed before. It actually poses an interesting scenario in which the ACC's *ahem* "laid back" approach to football actually could be a strength. If you get the right guy, it's a lot more plausible to see ACC schools basically stepping back and letting them do their jobs and build programs. According to this source, Dabo has that. I have to imagine Cutcliff has that. Jimbo didn't always have that, but as a result of the LSU flirtations, he has that now.

If this quote is right, and this is a big part of modern football, it does have interesting implications.

I think it's more than just that though....someone has to lose and someone has to win in a conference. Not all SEC teams can go 8-0

What's been surprising is how bad the SEC East has become...I don't exactly see a return to prominence either for any of those teams

LSU will be back though...wouldn't surprise me if you see them as a serious threat to Alabama in the next few years

(01-25-2017 01:45 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I found this incredibly interesting:

-------
One former SEC coach, who also worked in the ACC, said he sees more ACC coaches with greater authority over their program than in the SEC. By that, the coach means teams have so many more staff members now who influence players -- player personnel, analysts, strength coaches, nutritionists, psychologists, etc. -- that it's changed what the authority of the SEC head coach once meant in a program.

"I think players today have to live in a domain where they get a consistent message, and there's only one place in the SEC where I see a player talk like his head coach [Alabama]," said the coach, who asked to remain anonymous. "There is complete sovereignty with everything that touches a player at Alabama. Dabo has sovereignty at Clemson.

"I think a lot of money has been put in the hands of SEC ADs to put their football coaches in a lot less control than what Nick Saban's got. Not a lot of executives really understand what's going on. On every given Saturday, there's only about a seven-point swing in a game. How fine does the edge have to be honed to be a dominant football team? Right now, the SEC is extremely diluted in mediocrity."
------

I've never heard anything like that expressed before. It actually poses an interesting scenario in which the ACC's *ahem* "laid back" approach to football actually could be a strength. If you get the right guy, it's a lot more plausible to see ACC schools basically stepping back and letting them do their jobs and build programs. According to this source, Dabo has that. I have to imagine Cutcliff has that. Jimbo didn't always have that, but as a result of the LSU flirtations, he has that now.

I sense that VT is really in on Fuente, and should be in that mindset after being that way with Beamer all those years. Richt probably has the gravitas to at least start with that benefit of the doubt.

Think about the nonsense that Auburn is constantly dealing with, even now, with authority battles. What LSU has gone through. All across the SEC ADs and boosters have their fingers in personnel. I just heard that at Florida, Charlie Weiss was basically imposed on Will Muschamp in an effort to fix the offense.

If this quote is right, and this is a big part of modern football, it does have interesting implications.

What the author is hinting at, ironically, is that TOO MUCH money can inhibit success at this level... not because more resources aren't good (in general, they are), but because expectations for a return on that investment become SO high that it wipes out trust, patience, etc... things needed to build a winner.

You're Both Correct!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Which shows the ACC furthermore ROCKS!!
FLossY Out...

(01-25-2017 01:45 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I've never heard anything like that expressed before. It actually poses an interesting scenario in which the ACC's *ahem* "laid back" approach to football actually could be a strength. If you get the right guy, it's a lot more plausible to see ACC schools basically stepping back and letting them do their jobs and build programs. According to this source, Dabo has that. I have to imagine Cutcliff has that. Jimbo didn't always have that, but as a result of the LSU flirtations, he has that now.

I sense that VT is really in on Fuente, and should be in that mindset after being that way with Beamer all those years. Richt probably has the gravitas to at least start with that benefit of the doubt.

Think about the nonsense that Auburn is constantly dealing with, even now, with authority battles. What LSU has gone through. All across the SEC ADs and boosters have their fingers in personnel. I just heard that at Florida, Charlie Weiss was basically imposed on Will Muschamp in an effort to fix the offense.

If this quote is right, and this is a big part of modern football, it does have interesting implications.

That's a pretty spot-on assessment of the situation at VT. Whit Babcock has been praised by the coaches at VT across the board in how he approaches his role as athletic director. His philosophy has been to make the best hire possible and more or less stay out of the way unless they have some type of request. This has been more or less confirmed in interviews by Fuente, Buzz Williams, and other coaches at VT.

It helps that Virginia Tech has never really had the kind of boosters with big egos & large influence, as far as I'm aware. Most likely that's a byproduct of owing Beamer for putting us on the national stage, and mostly being happy to be there. That sentiment certainly waned in the last few years of his tenure, but overall I think the current administration sees the value in staying out of the way of the various coaching staffs.

(01-25-2017 03:05 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-25-2017 01:45 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I found this incredibly interesting:

-------
One former SEC coach, who also worked in the ACC, said he sees more ACC coaches with greater authority over their program than in the SEC. By that, the coach means teams have so many more staff members now who influence players -- player personnel, analysts, strength coaches, nutritionists, psychologists, etc. -- that it's changed what the authority of the SEC head coach once meant in a program.

"I think players today have to live in a domain where they get a consistent message, and there's only one place in the SEC where I see a player talk like his head coach [Alabama]," said the coach, who asked to remain anonymous. "There is complete sovereignty with everything that touches a player at Alabama. Dabo has sovereignty at Clemson.

"I think a lot of money has been put in the hands of SEC ADs to put their football coaches in a lot less control than what Nick Saban's got. Not a lot of executives really understand what's going on. On every given Saturday, there's only about a seven-point swing in a game. How fine does the edge have to be honed to be a dominant football team? Right now, the SEC is extremely diluted in mediocrity."
------

I've never heard anything like that expressed before. It actually poses an interesting scenario in which the ACC's *ahem* "laid back" approach to football actually could be a strength. If you get the right guy, it's a lot more plausible to see ACC schools basically stepping back and letting them do their jobs and build programs. According to this source, Dabo has that. I have to imagine Cutcliff has that. Jimbo didn't always have that, but as a result of the LSU flirtations, he has that now.

I sense that VT is really in on Fuente, and should be in that mindset after being that way with Beamer all those years. Richt probably has the gravitas to at least start with that benefit of the doubt.

Think about the nonsense that Auburn is constantly dealing with, even now, with authority battles. What LSU has gone through. All across the SEC ADs and boosters have their fingers in personnel. I just heard that at Florida, Charlie Weiss was basically imposed on Will Muschamp in an effort to fix the offense.

If this quote is right, and this is a big part of modern football, it does have interesting implications.

What the author is hinting at, ironically, is that TOO MUCH money can inhibit success at this level... not because more resources aren't good (in general, they are), but because expectations for a return on that investment become SO high that it wipes out trust, patience, etc... things needed to build a winner.

Yep, and additionally, with big money (and especially big old money), comes expectations of influence.

It's not just the SEC, look what that has done to Texas over the years. Charlie Strong's entire tenure was accompanied by stories of whether he really had the faith and support of the boosters. From day one. They basically got an AD driven out, which pretty much caused a full year of chaos.

But top to bottom the SEC is full of those kind of programs. Somehow Georgia has managed to stay pretty immune from that stuff, but it's terrible at so many SEC schools. Hell, Franchione left Bama (if that's even imaginable today) because of not being able to like change the carpet and replace his admin assistant because it stepped on people's toes. Only Saban was able to break that, and probably only because of how quickly he had success. He was winning before they could muster up enough hurt feelings.

Now don't get me wrong, without that kind of influence, you can end up in a very bad place as well...such as Bowden being on years too long at FSU, and what VT was headed for had Beamer wanted to make it difficult. If NC State disappoints again this year, people are really going to have a hard time justifying how he got five years in that post. That football inertia ended up in decades of terrible football in the ACC. And like you said, at the end of the day it means less revenue as well, so you've got to be smart.

I suspect a big part of it is just how nouveau riche the football powers in the ACC are. Clemson aside, when you have FSU, Miami, Louisville and VT carrying the football banner, you don't get a lot of "My grandaddy and his grandaddy and his grandaddy have been giving money since FIRST Roosevelt administration, and I'll be damned if you're going replace my accountant's nephew Bubba as a strength and conditioning assistant."

I never thought of that phenomenon much more than a curiosity, but perhaps as the organizations around a football team have gotten so much bigger and more complex, it's much harder to keep everyone pulling in the same direction if you have much less than dictatorial powers.

Will be interesting to see...without that extreme influence of boosters, it will be essential that the ACC programs hire excellent ADs and coaches, and have presidents who are on the same page.

(01-25-2017 02:51 PM)EvilVodka Wrote:  

(01-25-2017 01:45 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  The QB slate of 2016 is obviously not sustainable, but it would be nice if the ACC became THE league for QB prospects. If Watson and Trubinsky both go high and the other guys get drafted well, that will help.
"I think a lot of money has been put in the hands of SEC ADs to put their football coaches in a lot less control than what Nick Saban's got. Not a lot of executives really understand what's going on. On every given Saturday, there's only about a seven-point swing in a game. How fine does the edge have to be honed to be a dominant football team? Right now, the SEC is extremely diluted in mediocrity."

I've never heard anything like that expressed before. It actually poses an interesting scenario in which the ACC's *ahem* "laid back" approach to football actually could be a strength. If you get the right guy, it's a lot more plausible to see ACC schools basically stepping back and letting them do their jobs and build programs. According to this source, Dabo has that. I have to imagine Cutcliff has that. Jimbo didn't always have that, but as a result of the LSU flirtations, he has that now.

If this quote is right, and this is a big part of modern football, it does have interesting implications.

I think it's more than just that though....someone has to lose and someone has to win in a conference. Not all SEC teams can go 8-0

What's been surprising is how bad the SEC East has become...I don't exactly see a return to prominence either for any of those teams

LSU will be back though...wouldn't surprise me if you see them as a serious threat to Alabama in the next few years

They have the right Man in charge there. I doubt He let's it get away from Him.

The article misses the point entirely. Saban, like Meyer, is an absolute control freak. He dictates what he expects from each assistant and hovers over them like a helicopter Mom at rush. Kiffin was a hire to help an old friend out, Monty.

If you look back at great SEC coaches the modus operandi is a constant. Bear, Shug, Charlie Mac, Vince, Johnny V., and Gen. Neyland were all workaholic / obsessive compulsive dictators. Poppa Bowden, Joe Pa, Woody & Bo, Pete Carroll, John McKay, Darrell Royal, Lou Holtz, Bobby Dodd, Ara, Broyles, Devaney, Wilkinson and Knute were all similar in that regard.

The problem in the SEC right now is that the rest are laid back and try to be nice guys, or they are simply disorganized. Hugh and Gus are high school coaches who overachieved. Mullen can coach, but he's stayed too long at Mississippi State. Les like Tommy Tubberville was cruising to retirement but still wanted a fat check. Kirby and Jim have their hands full at institutions that expect everything all at once. Muschamp and Butch couldn't organize their underwear drawer let alone a football team. Stoops has the most thankless coaching job for football in the SEC. And Bielema is just plain inconsistent even if he overachieved at home.

This happened once before in the late 70's and early 80's when every SEC hire had to be a disciple of Bear. Most weren't worth a hoot. Why? The same reason Saban's haven't been able to make stellar transitions to head coaching.....it was Saban's ever vigilant eye and his Hitleresque control that makes Alabama roll. If the Head Coach does it for you it doesn't mean you learn how to do it for yourself.

I think Jimbo and Dabo get this. And if you think about it it makes a great deal of sense. Nobody wants to get fired because one of their assistants screws the pooch. Therefore if you have to take ultimate responsibility then by God it's going to be done your way. After all if you get fired it had better be for your own shortcomings and not some underling's.

Miami will be better off than it was, but Richt will simply remain above average. Virginia Tech made a good hire. Pitt did too but, oh well! Folks can get wrankled all they want about Paul at GT but he is consistently competitive with less talent. So until the BMD's in the SEC wake up and once again hire the top coaches wherever they can find them instead of taking Saban disciples we will remain in this funk.

But kudos to the poster here that pointed out Texas's lack of success in spite of money. It's not about money. It's about the guy you pick to run your team. If he is detail oriented, fundamentally sound and can teach fundamentals, and if he command obedience from his subordinates he will win.

The advantage the ACC has right now is that you are looking everywhere for the best available. The SEC has returned to its incestuous "must hire from within" mode that took us to mediocrity once before. But hey, the old AD's that learned that lesson in the 80's have all been replaced and the new ones have to learn that lesson all over again!

I think that Richt climbs the mountain. He was a tipped pass away from a national championship in 2012.

(01-30-2017 10:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The article misses the point entirely. Saban, like Meyer, is an absolute control freak. He dictates what he expects from each assistant and hovers over them like a helicopter Mom at rush. Kiffin was a hire to help an old friend out, Monty.

If you look back at great SEC coaches the modus operandi is a constant. Bear, Shug, Charlie Mac, Vince, Johnny V., and Gen. Neyland were all workaholic / obsessive compulsive dictators. Poppa Bowden, Joe Pa, Woody & Bo, Pete Carroll, John McKay, Darrell Royal, Lou Holtz, Bobby Dodd, Ara, Broyles, Devaney, Wilkinson and Knute were all similar in that regard.

The problem in the SEC right now is that the rest are laid back and try to be nice guys, or they are simply disorganized. Hugh and Gus are high school coaches who overachieved. Mullen can coach, but he's stayed too long at Mississippi State. Les like Tommy Tubberville was cruising to retirement but still wanted a fat check. Kirby and Jim have their hands full at institutions that expect everything all at once. Muschamp and Butch couldn't organize their underwear drawer let alone a football team. Stoops has the most thankless coaching job for football in the SEC. And Bielema is just plain inconsistent even if he overachieved at home.

This happened once before in the late 70's and early 80's when every SEC hire had to be a disciple of Bear. Most weren't worth a hoot. Why? The same reason Saban's haven't been able to make stellar transitions to head coaching.....it was Saban's ever vigilant eye and his Hitleresque control that makes Alabama roll. If the Head Coach does it for you it doesn't mean you learn how to do it for yourself.

I think Jimbo and Dabo get this. And if you think about it it makes a great deal of sense. Nobody wants to get fired because one of their assistants screws the pooch. Therefore if you have to take ultimate responsibility then by God it's going to be done your way. After all if you get fired it had better be for your own shortcomings and not some underling's.

Miami will be better off than it was, but Richt will simply remain above average. Virginia Tech made a good hire. Pitt did too but, oh well! Folks can get wrankled all they want about Paul at GT but he is consistently competitive with less talent. So until the BMD's in the SEC wake up and once again hire the top coaches wherever they can find them instead of taking Saban disciples we will remain in this funk.

But kudos to the poster here that pointed out Texas's lack of success in spite of money. It's not about money. It's about the guy you pick to run your team. If he is detail oriented, fundamentally sound and can teach fundamentals, and if he command obedience from his subordinates he will win.

The advantage the ACC has right now is that you are looking everywhere for the best available. The SEC has returned to its incestuous "must hire from within" mode that took us to mediocrity once before. But hey, the old AD's that learned that lesson in the 80's have all been replaced and the new ones have to learn that lesson all over again!

JR, I don't think you are necessarily off base with your evaluation of coaches, but I don't think that any of this is necessarily inconsistent with the column.

When you talk about the success of coaches that are control freak/dictators, I think it's reasonable to to ask, what SEC schools allow that?

Obviously, Saban's got it. That's not an Alabama thing, that's a Saban thing...he demanded it/earned it, etc. But Franchione fled Alabama because he couldn't get a new secretary or change the carpet in his office, that kind of thing, because it stepped on toes.

I think it's reasonable to consider how many programs in the SEC, because of massive booster influence and huge pressure on/from ADs, will allow this kind of control.

Here's Malzahn, who took Auburn within seconds of a national title, who can't hire an offensive coordinator of his choosing:

http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/index.s...r_s_4.html

At Florida, it is not much of a secret that the AD forced Muschamp to hire Charlie Weis. And now...how much do you think McElwain likes the fact that Steve Spurrier was brought into the program again. Do you think it was his choice? You think he enjoyed having Spurrier reveal his starting QB for him?

At Tennessee, they might hire Phil Fulmer as the AD:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nca.../96644036/

"Fulmer has grown close to Tennessee President Joe DiPietro and a group of influential boosters have been working behind the scenes to help install him as Dave Hart’s replacement, according to people close to the situation."

I'm sure the coach at Tennessee, Jones or his successor, will love answering to a guy that has been angling for his job back ever since he was fired, and has no real AD qualifications.

Ole Miss can't keep their boosters within reasonable and acceptable levels of cheating.

I guess what I'm saying is that the type of top down control you have at Clemson or Florida State or Duke over the football programs, or that Richt and Fuente are probably getting as well...how much more difficult is that to get at an SEC school?

It's not impossible, as Saban has demonstrated, but it's tougher there than in other conferences I believe (while at some other individual programs, like Texas, it's at least as bad).

I don't think that's inconsistent with what you're saying, but it further fleshes out what you are saying is missing. And the hiring of Saban assistants definitely exacerbates it because these are generally guys that haven't proven themselves as head coaches anywhere or in any meaningful way, so they aren't as likely to give them free reign.

(01-31-2017 01:11 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  I think that Richt climbs the mountain. He was a tipped pass away from a national championship in 2012.

I don't.

I believe Richt is a good coach, and a very honorable man....but the fact remains in his 15 years at Georgia he was a major underachiever. When you go 15 years and your worst rated recruiting class is ranked 12th and your average recruiting finish is 8th yet you only have two conference championships and only win or share the division title six times you underachieved.

(01-31-2017 01:33 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(01-31-2017 01:11 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  I think that Richt climbs the mountain. He was a tipped pass away from a national championship in 2012.

I don't.

I believe Richt is a good coach, and a very honorable man....but the fact remains in his 15 years at Georgia he was a major underachiever. When you go 15 years and your worst rated recruiting class is ranked 12th and your average recruiting finish is 8th yet you only have two conference championships and only win or share the division title six times you underachieved.

History definitely supports what Kap is saying. That said, rebuilding the U may be a 2-step process at this point: (1) stock the roster, then (2) find a better coach.

(01-31-2017 01:33 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  When you go 15 years and your worst rated recruiting class is ranked 12th and your average recruiting finish is 8th yet you only have two conference championships and only win or share the division title six times you underachieved.

your premise is faulty ...
giving credence to starz ...
suffer fools gladly ...

TWINKLE TWINKLE

(01-31-2017 02:36 PM)green Wrote:  

(01-31-2017 01:33 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  When you go 15 years and your worst rated recruiting class is ranked 12th and your average recruiting finish is 8th yet you only have two conference championships and only win or share the division title six times you underachieved.

your premise is faulty ...
giving credence to starz ...
suffer fools gladly ...

TWINKLE TWINKLE

Can't believe folks still trying that played out 'rankings don't matter'.......yes, they do:

http://www.foxsports.com/college-footbal...son-020116

http://247sports.com/Article/National-Si...c-50905753

http://allthingsfsu.blogspot.com/2016/02...dates.html


There area many more articles that gone on and on about this.

Recruiting matters....stop with this silly myth that they don't

(01-31-2017 09:45 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(01-30-2017 10:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The article misses the point entirely. Saban, like Meyer, is an absolute control freak. He dictates what he expects from each assistant and hovers over them like a helicopter Mom at rush. Kiffin was a hire to help an old friend out, Monty.

If you look back at great SEC coaches the modus operandi is a constant. Bear, Shug, Charlie Mac, Vince, Johnny V., and Gen. Neyland were all workaholic / obsessive compulsive dictators. Poppa Bowden, Joe Pa, Woody & Bo, Pete Carroll, John McKay, Darrell Royal, Lou Holtz, Bobby Dodd, Ara, Broyles, Devaney, Wilkinson and Knute were all similar in that regard.

The problem in the SEC right now is that the rest are laid back and try to be nice guys, or they are simply disorganized. Hugh and Gus are high school coaches who overachieved. Mullen can coach, but he's stayed too long at Mississippi State. Les like Tommy Tubberville was cruising to retirement but still wanted a fat check. Kirby and Jim have their hands full at institutions that expect everything all at once. Muschamp and Butch couldn't organize their underwear drawer let alone a football team. Stoops has the most thankless coaching job for football in the SEC. And Bielema is just plain inconsistent even if he overachieved at home.

This happened once before in the late 70's and early 80's when every SEC hire had to be a disciple of Bear. Most weren't worth a hoot. Why? The same reason Saban's haven't been able to make stellar transitions to head coaching.....it was Saban's ever vigilant eye and his Hitleresque control that makes Alabama roll. If the Head Coach does it for you it doesn't mean you learn how to do it for yourself.

I think Jimbo and Dabo get this. And if you think about it it makes a great deal of sense. Nobody wants to get fired because one of their assistants screws the pooch. Therefore if you have to take ultimate responsibility then by God it's going to be done your way. After all if you get fired it had better be for your own shortcomings and not some underling's.

Miami will be better off than it was, but Richt will simply remain above average. Virginia Tech made a good hire. Pitt did too but, oh well! Folks can get wrankled all they want about Paul at GT but he is consistently competitive with less talent. So until the BMD's in the SEC wake up and once again hire the top coaches wherever they can find them instead of taking Saban disciples we will remain in this funk.

But kudos to the poster here that pointed out Texas's lack of success in spite of money. It's not about money. It's about the guy you pick to run your team. If he is detail oriented, fundamentally sound and can teach fundamentals, and if he command obedience from his subordinates he will win.

The advantage the ACC has right now is that you are looking everywhere for the best available. The SEC has returned to its incestuous "must hire from within" mode that took us to mediocrity once before. But hey, the old AD's that learned that lesson in the 80's have all been replaced and the new ones have to learn that lesson all over again!

JR, I don't think you are necessarily off base with your evaluation of coaches, but I don't think that any of this is necessarily inconsistent with the column.

When you talk about the success of coaches that are control freak/dictators, I think it's reasonable to to ask, what SEC schools allow that?

Obviously, Saban's got it. That's not an Alabama thing, that's a Saban thing...he demanded it/earned it, etc. But Franchione fled Alabama because he couldn't get a new secretary or change the carpet in his office, that kind of thing, because it stepped on toes.

I think it's reasonable to consider how many programs in the SEC, because of massive booster influence and huge pressure on/from ADs, will allow this kind of control.

Here's Malzahn, who took Auburn within seconds of a national title, who can't hire an offensive coordinator of his choosing:

http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/index.s...r_s_4.html

At Florida, it is not much of a secret that the AD forced Muschamp to hire Charlie Weis. And now...how much do you think McElwain likes the fact that Steve Spurrier was brought into the program again. Do you think it was his choice? You think he enjoyed having Spurrier reveal his starting QB for him?

At Tennessee, they might hire Phil Fulmer as the AD:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nca.../96644036/

"Fulmer has grown close to Tennessee President Joe DiPietro and a group of influential boosters have been working behind the scenes to help install him as Dave Hart’s replacement, according to people close to the situation."

I'm sure the coach at Tennessee, Jones or his successor, will love answering to a guy that has been angling for his job back ever since he was fired, and has no real AD qualifications.

Ole Miss can't keep their boosters within reasonable and acceptable levels of cheating.

I guess what I'm saying is that the type of top down control you have at Clemson or Florida State or Duke over the football programs, or that Richt and Fuente are probably getting as well...how much more difficult is that to get at an SEC school?

It's not impossible, as Saban has demonstrated, but it's tougher there than in other conferences I believe (while at some other individual programs, like Texas, it's at least as bad).

I don't think that's inconsistent with what you're saying, but it further fleshes out what you are saying is missing. And the hiring of Saban assistants definitely exacerbates it because these are generally guys that haven't proven themselves as head coaches anywhere or in any meaningful way, so they aren't as likely to give them free reign.

I see your nuance here and some of it is very valid. But the examples you cited all have less public issues behind them. In the world of college athletics reporters don't get access if they spill too many beans. Therefore the public is carefully given information.

Do you really think the folks in Happy Valley had any idea of just how much influence Paterno had? Sure there were a few inside the administration that knew in spades what was going on, but most of the folks just believed in St. Joe. Now you can substitute St. Paul "Bear" Bryant, or any other name with the same effect.

At Auburn Malzahn doesn't have the influence because he has other issues pertaining to his judgement that have hamstrung his largess. Do you think they will publicize that?

Hugh Freeze, as other head coaches do, let the boosters know which kids he wanted. I promise you these guys are fully aware even though they are very careful not to put anything in writing or to speak on phones, or via the internet. Most information is passed face to face and outside of the Athletic Department building.

Pat Dye had plenty of control at Auburn. Tubby earned his way into it. Bowden earned his control at FSU.

If Fulmer worms his way in as AD at Tennessee it is highly doubtful he returns to coaching. First, he's lost his recruiting ties. Most of those dry up with a 3 year absence let alone a decade or more. Second, Butch doesn't have as much control because Kiffin abused his. There's more here than meets the eye and each school's situation is unique. But I stick by my observation, it's not about money, and that includes having so much that spending it has been bureaucratized, it hasn't. It's about trust. The young guys haven't earned it, some schools have been abused by giving out too much (Tennessee / Florida / Arkansas), and some have coaches that secretly have demonstrated they can't handle it.

The SEC simply got complacent, fell into easy appeasement of BMD's by hiring Saban disciples (because those were the names hot on the BMD's lips) instead of doing the hard job of actually going beyond our borders for great hires. They've forgotten that Meyer came from Utah, Saban from Michigan State, and Miles from outside SEC pipelines, and yes Miles was fine until he got complacent. So I just don't buy the OP's point of view. But I do see and get your perspective even if it is based on the OP's assessment. We've forgotten the most important rule about life and success. Success doesn't guarantee future outcomes. Hard work does.

(01-31-2017 02:29 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-31-2017 01:33 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(01-31-2017 01:11 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  I think that Richt climbs the mountain. He was a tipped pass away from a national championship in 2012.

I don't.

I believe Richt is a good coach, and a very honorable man....but the fact remains in his 15 years at Georgia he was a major underachiever. When you go 15 years and your worst rated recruiting class is ranked 12th and your average recruiting finish is 8th yet you only have two conference championships and only win or share the division title six times you underachieved.

History definitely supports what Kap is saying. That said, rebuilding the U may be a 2-step process at this point: (1) stock the roster, then (2) find a better coach.

Richt also faced massive hurdles at UGA that he won't have in Miami.

He doesn't have to beat Urban Meyer at UF to win the division, and he doesn't have to beat Spurruer to win the division. He then doesn't have to beat the SEC west champ during the SEC's run of dominance to win the conference.