(02-02-2017 04:32 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If you just study for once the NCAA regs

Since you're a student of the DI manual, then you'll be able to point us all to the section that says what you claimed.

(02-02-2017 04:32 PM)NoDak Wrote:  A number of excellent swimmers have come from N Dakota

Didn't claim otherwise.


What I said is just the basis for a justification of why UND swimming (along with golf and tennis) could be cut: low participation numbers in the state.

ND youth/high school teams are mostly in football, basketball, volleyball, wrestling, baseball, track ... with softball starting to catch on after, finally, being sanctioned. Less so hockey, because its so damned expensive, but also has a niche, fervent following for school teams.

And so, those are the sports that ND universities should emphasize for varsity athletics.

(02-02-2017 04:43 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-02-2017 04:32 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If you just study for once the NCAA regs

Since you're a student of the DI manual, then you'll be able to point us all to the section that says what you claimed.

(02-02-2017 04:32 PM)NoDak Wrote:  A number of excellent swimmers have come from N Dakota

Didn't claim otherwise.


What I said is just the basis for a justification of why UND swimming (along with golf and tennis) could be cut: low participation numbers in the state.

ND youth/high school teams are mostly in football, basketball, volleyball, wrestling, baseball, track ... with softball starting to catch on after, finally, being sanctioned. Less so hockey, because its so damned expensive, but also has a niche, fervent following for school teams.

And so, those are the sports that ND universities should emphasize for varsity athletics.

18.5.3 stipulates that a conference must sponsor two men's teams consisting of conference members. Affiliations are allowed once the number has been reached.
20.02.05.2 requires a third men's team for conferences without football. Affiliations are allowed to get the magic number.

This was all in view of your eyes but you either refuse or can't process that info.

BTW, 30 years before ND sponsored HS hockey, UND and NDSU had hockey. NDSU followed your logic and dropped it. UND hooked up with Minnesota, Michigan, and Denver and started their own league.

(02-02-2017 04:55 PM)NoDak Wrote:  18.5.3 stipulates ... 20.02.05.2 requires ...

Neither say anything about affiliate members.

(02-02-2017 04:55 PM)NoDak Wrote:  30 years before ND sponsored HS hockey, UND and NDSU had hockey

As I said, ND universities should emphasize varsity sports where the state school teams have the highest interest and highest participation. Hockey belongs in that group. I did wish NDSU had a varsity hockey team, but that's not reality and isn't ever likely to become reality.

Just like neither NDSU or UND are ever likely to be FBS conference members.

So I moved on.

(02-01-2017 08:22 PM)shizzle787 Wrote:  What are the odds the Horizon steals the Indiana twins, and the Summit replies by trying to coax the Montana twins?

Only logical way I could see that happening is if the Big East goes to 12 and sets off a backfilling chain that ends up at the Horizon League. As was stated earlier, right now, there's zero interest in either of the IUPU schools from the Horizon.

(02-02-2017 12:11 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-01-2017 07:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  You wonder if Omaha would have dropped football had the Summit been in a position to sponsor it a few years ago.

Though this seems to be message board lore more than official, the word is that Omaha was required to drop football to move to DI by Lincoln.

Omaha was losing $2 million annually in football, played in a glorified high school stadium with zero room for expansion around it, couldn't draw flies unless they were playing Nebraska-Kearney, NW Missouri State (who made the stadium North Maryville) and NDSU (who made the stadium South Fargo), and were well behind in Title IX requirements. Football was a goner if the school was going to move up to D1, no matter what. Wrestling is where it gets fuzzy, though the men's soccer program that's replaced it seems like it's going to be a pretty solid one.

A few things I've heard regarding the Summit and any current and new members are that Omaha's kicking around the idea of dropping baseball since revenues from the new stadium aren't what were expected, and that SCSU has looked at moving up, but decided to stay in the Northern Sun after realizing that they'd have to drop football like Omaha did if they were to. Unlike Omaha did after the NCC collapsed, the D2 Minnesota schools have a fantastic fit conference-wise if they choose to stand pat. Summit League baseball might be in danger in the near future, depending on how budget cuts affect NDSU and Omaha. Losing one team might get you a waiver, but I can't imagine the NCAA would grant waivers for a four team conference.

(02-03-2017 09:28 PM)Mav Wrote:  

(02-01-2017 08:22 PM)shizzle787 Wrote:  What are the odds the Horizon steals the Indiana twins, and the Summit replies by trying to coax the Montana twins?

Only logical way I could see that happening is if the Big East goes to 12 and sets off a backfilling chain that ends up at the Horizon League. As was stated earlier, right now, there's zero interest in either of the IUPU schools from the Horizon.

(02-02-2017 12:11 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-01-2017 07:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  You wonder if Omaha would have dropped football had the Summit been in a position to sponsor it a few years ago.

Though this seems to be message board lore more than official, the word is that Omaha was required to drop football to move to DI by Lincoln.

Omaha was losing $2 million annually in football, played in a glorified high school stadium with zero room for expansion around it, couldn't draw flies unless they were playing Nebraska-Kearney, NW Missouri State (who made the stadium North Maryville) and NDSU (who made the stadium South Fargo), and were well behind in Title IX requirements. Football was a goner if the school was going to move up to D1, no matter what. Wrestling is where it gets fuzzy, though the men's soccer program that's replaced it seems like it's going to be a pretty solid one.

A few things I've heard regarding the Summit and any current and new members are that Omaha's kicking around the idea of dropping baseball since revenues from the new stadium aren't what were expected, and that SCSU has looked at moving up, but decided to stay in the Northern Sun after realizing that they'd have to drop football like Omaha did if they were to. Unlike Omaha did after the NCC collapsed, the D2 Minnesota schools have a fantastic fit conference-wise if they choose to stand pat. Summit League baseball might be in danger in the near future, depending on how budget cuts affect NDSU and Omaha. Losing one team might get you a waiver, but I can't imagine the NCAA would grant waivers for a four team conference.

The Horizon League has no interest in the Indiana's except for baseball they would take IPFW in a heartbeat as an affiliate, might even look at Western. The MVC would look to add baseball affiliates as well.

(02-03-2017 09:28 PM)Mav Wrote:  Omaha was losing $2 million annually in football, played in a glorified high school stadium with zero room for expansion around it, couldn't draw flies unless they were playing Nebraska-Kearney, NW Missouri State (who made the stadium North Maryville) and NDSU (who made the stadium South Fargo), and were well behind in Title IX requirements. Football was a goner if the school was going to move up to D1, no matter what. Wrestling is where it gets fuzzy, though the men's soccer program that's replaced it seems like it's going to be a pretty solid one.

Fair enough.

(02-03-2017 09:28 PM)Mav Wrote:  A few things I've heard regarding the Summit and any current and new members are that Omaha's kicking around the idea of dropping baseball since revenues from the new stadium aren't what were expected

Are you talking about the new UNO arena? Or a new stadium for UNO baseball?

I don't think college baseball really works at NDSU, but it seems like it should work in Omaha, for obvious reasons. Though perhaps its a case where Creighton has already cornered the market for college basketball and baseball, with Lincoln obviously the football king, and UNO the hockey king.

(02-03-2017 09:28 PM)Mav Wrote:  Unlike Omaha did after the NCC collapsed, the D2 Minnesota schools have a fantastic fit conference-wise if they choose to stand pat.

Funny you say that, because Wayne St was in the Northern Sun since before the merger with the remaining NCC schools.

Maybe UNO saw that conf and Wayne St as beneath them? But I always thought UNO should've stayed in the upper midwest, instead of going in with the Missouri schools.

(02-03-2017 09:28 PM)Mav Wrote:  Summit League baseball might be in danger in the near future, depending on how budget cuts affect NDSU and Omaha. Losing one team might get you a waiver, but I can't imagine the NCAA would grant waivers for a four team conference.

But going by the letter of the law for requirements of DI multisport conferences, the Summit has to keep sponsoring baseball, which is its second team sport besides basketball.

Personally, I think that requirement is arbitrary. I think DI non-fb conferences should only need to sponsor two team sports. Not sure why the NCAA cares so much. Perhaps someone who wanted to prop up baseball as a college sport thought too many schools would drop the sport, if they didn't have that language? Who knows.

(02-04-2017 07:43 AM)otis campbell Wrote:  The Horizon League has no interest in the Indiana's ...

The discussion is if MVC loses Wichita and Missouri St, then takes Valpo and perhaps another Horizon team.

In that case, the Horizon would certainly be interested in the IP's. Their league office is in Indy ...

(02-02-2017 04:25 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  But there aren't a ton of costs with baseball either, especially since you can use metal bats in college. So I don't see much cost savings going from baseball to men's volleyball.

With baseball, a northern school has to spend about a month on the road. Those are hard costs, not soft costs like tuition often is.

True, good point. Travel is relatively significant for northern teams, in the early part of the year.

Still not sure cutting baseball at NDSU would achieve anything close to a 10% athletic dept budget cut ... maybe more like a 1%. I think they're going to have to cut some admin and/or other costs.

(02-06-2017 04:11 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-02-2017 04:25 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  But there aren't a ton of costs with baseball either, especially since you can use metal bats in college. So I don't see much cost savings going from baseball to men's volleyball.

With baseball, a northern school has to spend about a month on the road. Those are hard costs, not soft costs like tuition often is.

In North Dakota, it's more like two months on the road. Depends on the year. Sometimes the snow hasn't even finished melting in April. Warm temperature above 50 F rarely happen when snow is still on the ground.

UND can cut non- core sports like M/W tennis and M/W swimming that don't effect many fans, but only alumni. We're still at 20 sports, while NDSU is at 16. NDSU has much more serious issues, because they can't cut women's sports because they are so out of balance with M/W enrollment.

(02-04-2017 10:44 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 09:28 PM)Mav Wrote:  A few things I've heard regarding the Summit and any current and new members are that Omaha's kicking around the idea of dropping baseball since revenues from the new stadium aren't what were expected

Are you talking about the new UNO arena? Or a new stadium for UNO baseball?

I don't think college baseball really works at NDSU, but it seems like it should work in Omaha, for obvious reasons. Though perhaps its a case where Creighton has already cornered the market for college basketball and baseball, with Lincoln obviously the football king, and UNO the hockey king.

The new arena, my mistake. The next phase of the athletic complex plan was to turn an area to the west of the arena into diamonds for baseball and softball, but they ended up tabling those stadiums and going back to playing on high school fields when the new arena pulled a net loss, and now the "athletic complex" talk is dead in the water. The head coach was also fired on some very spurious charges of player abuse, and the reaction from the players was reportedly a very angry one at the university. Combine this with Dean Blais having to flush out all of his assistants in favor of rookies, and you have the image of a program cutting costs every way it can.

Baseball should work here. Nebraska has decent baseball talent, and while it will never be a revenue sport at Omaha, they can have success with it. But there has to be a will and the funds to make it work, and I'm not seeing it in the near future unless they get help paying off the arena. North Dakota, not so much.

(02-04-2017 10:44 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Funny you say that, because Wayne St was in the Northern Sun since before the merger with the remaining NCC schools.

Maybe UNO saw that conf and Wayne St as beneath them? But I always thought UNO should've stayed in the upper midwest, instead of going in with the Missouri schools.

Wayne State is beneath them. Wayne doesn't offer doctorates. It's Wayne State College, not University. The two schools rarely played one another. And yes, UNO tends to be more Upper Midwest-minded, but they probably joined MIAA because of their history with NW Missouri State.

UNO wanted to be with peers, and it sees the Dakotas as athletic peers. It also wanted to make a name for itself in-state and be known for being more than a commuter school for unambitious kids. The school's been making a push to be something more than it was 15-20 years ago, and settling for D2 and schools with 33% of its enrollment goes against that. Granted, D1's shaping up to be a pretty rocky road...

(02-04-2017 10:44 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 09:28 PM)Mav Wrote:  Summit League baseball might be in danger in the near future, depending on how budget cuts affect NDSU and Omaha. Losing one team might get you a waiver, but I can't imagine the NCAA would grant waivers for a four team conference.

But going by the letter of the law for requirements of DI multisport conferences, the Summit has to keep sponsoring baseball, which is its second team sport besides basketball.

Personally, I think that requirement is arbitrary. I think DI non-fb conferences should only need to sponsor two team sports. Not sure why the NCAA cares so much. Perhaps someone who wanted to prop up baseball as a college sport thought too many schools would drop the sport, if they didn't have that language? Who knows.

Is it possible for the Summit to replace its secondary sport? Baseball might have made sense in the MidCon days, but if the Summit will be based around the northern Great Plains and Upper Midwest, baseball doesn't make much sense to place such a priority on.

All the Summit has to do is sponsor football, then baseball can go away. If they need six full members to force the takeover of the MVFC, then adding Northern Colorado would be the way to go - adding UNC would allow the Summit to keep baseball afloat longer as well if they do not want to drop it.

If the Summit dropped baseball, UNC could continue to play in the WAC if they keep their team. Oral Roberts, Omaha, Western Illinois, and Fort Wayne could all join the MVC for baseball only if they keep their programs. South Dakota State would probably drop its program.

(02-07-2017 07:16 PM)Mav Wrote:  The next phase of the athletic complex plan was to turn an area to the west of the arena into diamonds for baseball and softball, but they ended up tabling those stadiums and going back to playing on high school fields when the new arena pulled a net loss, and now the "athletic complex" talk is dead in the water.

...

But there has to be a will and the funds to make it work, and I'm not seeing it in the near future unless they get help paying off the arena.

Didn't know that UNO athletic dept financial situation was that bleak. What was the cost of the new arena and how was it financed, bonds? Or donations?

Hopefully things turn around for you.

It's mainly a hockey arena, as that's your main revenue sport, right? With hopefully MBB doing well, too. It looks like a really nice arena.


Do you think attendance has gone down for hockey since moving from the big Omaha arena? To ask another way: is it a pain for people to get to UNO campus?

(02-07-2017 07:16 PM)Mav Wrote:  It also wanted to make a name for itself in-state and be known for being more than a commuter school for unambitious kids.

Well, if you want to be a major research institution, all you'd need to do is merge the University of Nebraska Med School/Health Science campus in Omaha under UNO. That would do the trick in a hurry.


And I imagine the Lincoln board would s___ a collective brick, and then push small children down, falling over themselves to have that plan rejected.

(02-07-2017 07:16 PM)Mav Wrote:  Is it possible for the Summit to replace its secondary sport?

I can't see what team sport they could reasonably replace baseball with, as the third team sport.

You have MBB, then soccer would be the second men's team sport, and you apparently need one more. NoDak suggested men's volleyball. That would work for me, but I don't know if the schools would buy it.

(02-07-2017 09:18 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  All the Summit has to do is sponsor football, then baseball can go away. If they need six full members to force the takeover of the MVFC, then adding Northern Colorado would be the way to go - adding UNC would allow the Summit to keep baseball afloat longer as well if they do not want to drop it.

I'm all aboard that plan ... except one catch: the MVFC is separate from the MVC. In other words, the MVC doesn't sponsor football. It was the same way with the Gateway Football Conf.

So if the Summit assumed management of the current MVFC, it would seem like that "independence" from the MVC and Summit would remain.

(02-07-2017 09:18 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  If the Summit dropped baseball, UNC could continue to play in the WAC if they keep their team. Oral Roberts, Omaha, Western Illinois, and Fort Wayne could all join the MVC for baseball only if they keep their programs. South Dakota State would probably drop its program.

The Dakota 4 should follow USD and UND's lead and all drop baseball, in my opinion.

If UNC was the enabler, allowing the Summit to officially sponsor football, then I would think it would also drop its program. Possibly same with Omaha. Denver doesn't have baseball.

The Dakotas, Omaha, Denver, and N Colo, if they joined, would be the schools I'm most concerned with. NCC 2.0

Would love for UND to drop individual sports like M/W tennis, M/W swimming and golf and start M/W lacrosse and M VBall, as they have revenue potential and great indoor facilities to host them. But don't see either the Slummit or UND doing it. We have six team sports that draw at least a 1000, why not eight or nine?

(02-07-2017 10:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The Dakotas, Omaha, Denver, and N Colo, if they joined, would be the schools I'm most concerned with. NCC 2.0

SDSU will not be dropping baseball, ever. If NDSU drop the sport, and the SLC move away from baseball SDSU will be hooking up with the remaining SLC members who sponsor baseball to look for a conference to join as an affiliate.

(02-08-2017 12:09 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Would love for UND to drop individual sports like M/W tennis, M/W swimming and golf and start M/W lacrosse and M VBall, as they have revenue potential and great indoor facilities to host them.

I don't know about starting lacrosse or men's vball, but I personally think sports like tennis, swimming, and golf should not be sponsored at all at the high school and college levels.

Let the club/private teams take over that completely.

(02-08-2017 12:35 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  SDSU will not be dropping baseball, ever. If NDSU drop the sport, and the SLC move away from baseball SDSU will be hooking up with the remaining SLC members who sponsor baseball to look for a conference to join as an affiliate.

That is SDSU's prerogative, to continue spending a ton of money to attract players from California and Arizona, to a climate with a built in competitive disadvantage, and spending another ton of money to fly the team to the southwest and southeast for most of the season, while hoping the weather holds out enough for some sloppy April and early May home games in Brookings.


NDSU does the exact same thing for the softball team. And that team will never be dropped .... because it has found a way to win. Not so, for whatever reason, with baseball.

MplsBison ' Wrote:  

(02-08-2017 12:35 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  SDSU will not be dropping baseball, ever. If NDSU drop the sport, and the SLC move away from baseball SDSU will be hooking up with the remaining SLC members who sponsor baseball to look for a conference to join as an affiliate.

That is SDSU's prerogative, to continue spending a ton of money to attract players from California and Arizona, to a climate with a built in competitive disadvantage, and spending another ton of money to fly the team to the southwest and southeast for most of the season, while hoping the weather holds out enough for some sloppy April and early May home games in Brookings.

NDSU does the exact same thing for the softball team. And that team will never be dropped .... because it has found a way to win. Not so, for whatever reason, with baseball.

None of the Dakota schools import many baseball players from the west or south. A handful at most. Most are from Minnesota or neighboring states. There are some pitchers that need development there, otherwise they would have headed south.

But NDSU gets most of their softball players from California. . .

NDSU has an overwhelming number from Minn.

SDSU has almost 1/3rd each from SD, Minn, and Iowa.


But yes I was wrong. I assumed they both ran it the way that NDSU softball does it. Although even there, players from the southwest only make up about half of the roster.

(02-07-2017 10:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Didn't know that UNO athletic dept financial situation was that bleak. What was the cost of the new arena and how was it financed, bonds? Or donations?

Hopefully things turn around for you.

It's mainly a hockey arena, as that's your main revenue sport, right? With hopefully MBB doing well, too. It looks like a really nice arena.


Do you think attendance has gone down for hockey since moving from the big Omaha arena? To ask another way: is it a pain for people to get to UNO campus?

Both private donations and bonds paid for it. And yes, hockey is, in theory, the revenue sport, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were all running in the red at the moment. Attendance is actually down since the move, due to the arena having fewer amenities and the team's struggles in-conference, coupled with a terrible attitude from the athletic department that the new arena should sell itself regardless of the results on the rink/court.

Quote:Well, if you want to be a major research institution, all you'd need to do is merge the University of Nebraska Med School/Health Science campus in Omaha under UNO. That would do the trick in a hurry.

And I imagine the Lincoln board would s___ a collective brick, and then push small children down, falling over themselves to have that plan rejected.

It'd never happen, especially since the main rationale behind Lincoln's forced removal from the AAU was a perceived lack of commitment to non-ag sciences. They asked if UNMC could count, and the AAU said no, but if it did, that Lincoln would remain a member, easily. Lincoln already took over UNO's engineering department in an attempt to save face, and even put up these arrogant "Welcome to Nebraska" flyers in the engineering wing.

Quote:I can't see what team sport they could reasonably replace baseball with, as the third team sport.

You have MBB, then soccer would be the second men's team sport, and you apparently need one more. NoDak suggested men's volleyball. That would work for me, but I don't know if the schools would buy it.

That's actually just what I was thinking. Soccer would make more sense as a secondary sport than baseball, since it's in the fall and allows for play in all kinds of weather, unlike baseball. I'm sure the Dakotas could find at least some success in it, too, since it's one of those sports a mid-major can excel in, and they seem to do a better job of getting results in their focus sports than the rest of the Summit does.

(02-08-2017 04:09 PM)Mav Wrote:  Attendance is actually down since the move, due to the arena having fewer amenities and the team's struggles in-conference, coupled with a terrible attitude from the athletic department that the new arena should sell itself regardless of the results on the rink/court.

Well hopefully your hockey and bball attendances bounce back. Good luck

(02-08-2017 04:09 PM)Mav Wrote:  It'd never happen, especially since the main rationale behind Lincoln's forced removal from the AAU was a perceived lack of commitment to non-ag sciences. They asked if UNMC could count, and the AAU said no, but if it did, that Lincoln would remain a member, easily. Lincoln already took over UNO's engineering department in an attempt to save face, and even put up these arrogant "Welcome to Nebraska" flyers in the engineering wing.

Right. The exact same situation exists in Kansas, with the U of KS medical school and heath science campus being located in Kansas City, instead of Lawrence. Except that their med campus is counted under Lawrence research. Pretty dumb that they didn't do the same with the Omaha med campus ... have to imagine such a move is in the works eventually, and hopefully that will propel Nebraska back into AAU status.

(02-08-2017 04:09 PM)Mav Wrote:  Soccer would make more sense as a secondary sport than baseball, since it's in the fall and allows for play in all kinds of weather, unlike baseball. I'm sure the Dakotas could find at least some success in it, too, since it's one of those sports a mid-major can excel in, and they seem to do a better job of getting results in their focus sports than the rest of the Summit does.

I think women's soccer turned around the last couple years, but usually was middling. It used to be that our (women's) volleyball team was very good ... but they haven't been for a while.

Don't think men's soccer, much less men's volleyball, will be varsity sports at NDSU any time soon, regardless if baseball is dropped.


Think actually the more likely scenario would be the Summit officially sponsoring football, with the MVFC dissolving and the MVC football schools becoming affiliate members of the Summit for football. And I doubt that is happening either!

Well maybe baseball (or golf) won't be cut at NDSU, after all.

http://www.wday.com/sports/4215292-ndsu-...-athletics


But perhaps UND will cut some (more) sports.