I see the same situation repeating itself with the PAC 12. I think they could jump to 18 with Texas, ou and ku plus their sidekicks. Yet, if the PAC 12 goes with the view it's Texas or nothing they could be frozen out if Texas goes to another league.

(01-19-2017 01:43 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 01:03 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the question that we're never going to know the answer to....

If the Big 12 had taken Louisville in addition to WVU- assuming that Maryland still leaves to the Big Ten, what happens with the ACC then. Does UConn get taken (and does this cause a revolt by the football schools)? Does Cincy get taken then instead of UConn? I think the entire landscape of college sports is very different today if Louisville had been taken by the Big 12.

It would almost certainly have been UConn, and you're right, it would have created a very different political dynamic in the ACC. With Louisville, the ACC was able to agree to a grant of rights agreement. It's an interesting question whether FSU and Clemson would have been willing to sign a GOR with UConn in the conference instead of UL. FSU in particular joined UMD in refusing to approve the increase in the ACC exit fee to $50 million. They were clearly trying to keep their options open.

I think you'd see a lot of theatre for UConn, but Cincy getting the invite. It would have been for football. It would have been to keep the peace for that non-contributor up in Boston.

It's not like Cincy was crap. Academically, it's better than UL. Football, it's better than UConn. Basketball is where they're comparable, but behind them both. I think their case was very strong.

You'd do that to appease BC, FSU, and Clemson. UConn would still have made those three annoyed even if others liked UConn basketball. Essentially, isn't that what Louisville was anyway? A football concession? Why would Cincy not get that over UConn? Take Louisville out of that pool, and I bet that support go almost all to Cincy.

(01-19-2017 03:44 PM)bluesox Wrote:  I see the same situation repeating itself with the PAC 12. I think they could jump to 18 with Texas, ou and ku plus their sidekicks. Yet, if the PAC 12 goes with the view it's Texas or nothing they could be frozen out if Texas goes to another league.

ESPN is not going to allow Texas to go anywhere that they don't control. That means SEC or ACC and obviously the ACC is a much more likely landing spot due to a variety of reasons but first and foremost UT can get a special deal there that would not be allowed anywhere else.

The PAC is smart enough to see that if the choices are hawaii, boise, byu, UNLV, New Mexico, and SDSU versus OU, OSU, KU, KSU, ISU, and 1 of (TT or TCU).

(01-19-2017 04:33 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 03:44 PM)bluesox Wrote:  I see the same situation repeating itself with the PAC 12. I think they could jump to 18 with Texas, ou and ku plus their sidekicks. Yet, if the PAC 12 goes with the view it's Texas or nothing they could be frozen out if Texas goes to another league.

ESPN is not going to allow Texas to go anywhere that they don't control. That means SEC or ACC and obviously the ACC is a much more likely landing spot due to a variety of reasons but first and foremost UT can get a special deal there that would not be allowed anywhere else.

The PAC is smart enough to see that if the choices are hawaii, boise, byu, UNLV, New Mexico, and SDSU versus OU, OSU, KU, KSU, ISU, and 1 of (TT or TCU).

Texas just might be the key for ESPN to get a piece of the PAC network. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the 'Horns heading west.

(01-19-2017 04:35 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 04:33 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 03:44 PM)bluesox Wrote:  I see the same situation repeating itself with the PAC 12. I think they could jump to 18 with Texas, ou and ku plus their sidekicks. Yet, if the PAC 12 goes with the view it's Texas or nothing they could be frozen out if Texas goes to another league.

ESPN is not going to allow Texas to go anywhere that they don't control. That means SEC or ACC and obviously the ACC is a much more likely landing spot due to a variety of reasons but first and foremost UT can get a special deal there that would not be allowed anywhere else.

The PAC is smart enough to see that if the choices are hawaii, boise, byu, UNLV, New Mexico, and SDSU versus OU, OSU, KU, KSU, ISU, and 1 of (TT or TCU).

Texas just might be the key for ESPN to get a piece of the PAC network. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the 'Horns heading west.

LOL. Nobody wants a piece of the PAC network, not even Dish.

ESPN offered LHN to UT to control them. They will not let them slip away and I find it really hard to believe that ESPN would try to push UT to the PAC.

ESPN owns the SEC and ACC. They do not own much of the PAC at all. PAC owns it's own network and Fox owns a lot of the content. ESPN is hemorrhaging money and the talk of wall street it seems. Much more likely ESPN moves UT to the ACC to turn LHN into the ACCN and to protect it's investment in UT. At that point it owns all the valuable programs from Florida to Texas. That makes sense from a strategy standpoint.

Not sure how UT going to the PAC makes sense but anything is possible I suppose.

(01-19-2017 02:07 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 01:43 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 01:03 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the question that we're never going to know the answer to....

If the Big 12 had taken Louisville in addition to WVU- assuming that Maryland still leaves to the Big Ten, what happens with the ACC then. Does UConn get taken (and does this cause a revolt by the football schools)? Does Cincy get taken then instead of UConn? I think the entire landscape of college sports is very different today if Louisville had been taken by the Big 12.

It would almost certainly have been UConn, and you're right, it would have created a very different political dynamic in the ACC. With Louisville, the ACC was able to agree to a grant of rights agreement. It's an interesting question whether FSU and Clemson would have been willing to sign a GOR with UConn in the conference instead of UL. FSU in particular joined UMD in refusing to approve the increase in the ACC exit fee to $50 million. They were clearly trying to keep their options open.

Alternate timeline - West Virginia goes to the Big 12, but the B1G doesn't act as quickly and nab Maryland and Rutgers. Louisville doesn't believe it has another option open, so they join WVU in the Big 12 to get to 11 teams. They add Cincinnati to get a hub on the eastern side of the country to stay at 12 teams. The B1G then reacts and takes Rutgers and Maryland (as planned).

Suddenly, the ACC is in reactionary and survival mode, because the Big 12 starts to look at Clemson and Florida State. Those two go to the Big 12 to get to 14 schools (losing Texas A&M, Nebraska, Colorado and Missouri, but adding TCU, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati, Clemson and Florida State). The ACC adds UConn, Temple and USF to replace those three schools.

The only question is whether Notre Dame still accepts an ACC membership (I honestly don't know if FSU/Clemson/UL are deal breakers since they are still with Syracuse, Pittsburgh, UConn, Boston College, Miami, Georgia Tech), and whether the ACC pursues a school like Navy as a football-only member.

I don't think any current Big East school (like a Villanova/Georgetown) would have gone for a non-football membership (considering it would have been down the same path as the old Big East).

Those are some interesting thoughts. I posited a similar scenario with L'ville, WVU, and Cincy all announcing a move to the Big 12 in late Oct 2011 and its fallout but I didn't include Clemson and Florida St to the Big 12 as members 13 & 14.

UConn, Temple, and USF as ACC replacements seems plausible. Maybe UCF instead of Temple since the Knights have the stronger football program.

Here's another thought though--if the Big Ten, SEC, and Big 12 all at 14 and the ACC without its two strongest football brands does the carnage end there? I could easily see each of those leagues going to 16 all at the expense of the ACC. Maybe the damage would be even worse because at one point there was speculation involving every ACC AAU school being courted by the Big Ten.

I have to wonder if the Big 12 totally overplayed their hand and in the end got burned. Think about it: you grab WVU to stabilize at 10 while courting Clemson and FSU. You have a bigger carrot and more potential to bring along companion schools in the heart of ACC country if you don't have Cincy and Louisville tying up spots--it frees you up to pursue GA Tech, VA Tech, Miami, a NC school. The Big 12 was banking on generating enough chaos in the ACC to make that the conference's best members rush to leave that open season would be declared and its members poached. But the ACC only bent rather than broke and now a GOR is sticking it together.

(01-19-2017 06:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 02:07 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 01:43 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 01:03 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the question that we're never going to know the answer to....

If the Big 12 had taken Louisville in addition to WVU- assuming that Maryland still leaves to the Big Ten, what happens with the ACC then. Does UConn get taken (and does this cause a revolt by the football schools)? Does Cincy get taken then instead of UConn? I think the entire landscape of college sports is very different today if Louisville had been taken by the Big 12.

It would almost certainly have been UConn, and you're right, it would have created a very different political dynamic in the ACC. With Louisville, the ACC was able to agree to a grant of rights agreement. It's an interesting question whether FSU and Clemson would have been willing to sign a GOR with UConn in the conference instead of UL. FSU in particular joined UMD in refusing to approve the increase in the ACC exit fee to $50 million. They were clearly trying to keep their options open.

Alternate timeline - West Virginia goes to the Big 12, but the B1G doesn't act as quickly and nab Maryland and Rutgers. Louisville doesn't believe it has another option open, so they join WVU in the Big 12 to get to 11 teams. They add Cincinnati to get a hub on the eastern side of the country to stay at 12 teams. The B1G then reacts and takes Rutgers and Maryland (as planned).

Suddenly, the ACC is in reactionary and survival mode, because the Big 12 starts to look at Clemson and Florida State. Those two go to the Big 12 to get to 14 schools (losing Texas A&M, Nebraska, Colorado and Missouri, but adding TCU, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati, Clemson and Florida State). The ACC adds UConn, Temple and USF to replace those three schools.

The only question is whether Notre Dame still accepts an ACC membership (I honestly don't know if FSU/Clemson/UL are deal breakers since they are still with Syracuse, Pittsburgh, UConn, Boston College, Miami, Georgia Tech), and whether the ACC pursues a school like Navy as a football-only member.

I don't think any current Big East school (like a Villanova/Georgetown) would have gone for a non-football membership (considering it would have been down the same path as the old Big East).

Those are some interesting thoughts. I posited a similar scenario with L'ville, WVU, and Cincy all announcing a move to the Big 12 in late Oct 2011 and its fallout but I didn't include Clemson and Florida St to the Big 12 as members 13 & 14.

UConn, Temple, and USF as ACC replacements seems plausible. Maybe UCF instead of Temple since the Knights have the stronger football program.

Here's another thought though--if the Big Ten, SEC, and Big 12 all at 14 and the ACC without its two strongest football brands does the carnage end there? I could easily see each of those leagues going to 16 all at the expense of the ACC. Maybe the damage would be even worse because at one point there was speculation involving every ACC AAU school being courted by the Big Ten.

I have to wonder if the Big 12 totally overplayed their hand and in the end got burned. Think about it: you grab WVU to stabilize at 10 while courting Clemson and FSU. You have a bigger carrot and more potential to bring along companion schools in the heart of ACC country if you don't have Cincy and Louisville tying up spots--it frees you up to pursue GA Tech, VA Tech, Miami, a NC school. The Big 12 was banking on generating enough chaos in the ACC to make that the conference's best members rush to leave that open season would be declared and its members poached. But the ACC only bent rather than broke and now a GOR is sticking it together.

True but at this point, the ACC has done more than merely "bent", they have passed the B12 by in terms of both success on the field and in terms of stability.

B12 missed their big opportunity, but the ACC missed theirs as well because they could have just as easily taken SU, Pitt, WVU and Louisville back in 2011, still got ND as a partial, and then replaced Maryland with UConn, leaving the B12 no real options for expansion beyond 9 (since TCU was going no matter what) to Cincy, BYU, Boise, Houston, USF, UCF, and Memphis.

Cheers,
Neil

(01-18-2017 09:33 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 08:59 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 08:19 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 02:13 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 01:26 PM)orangefan Wrote:  With all due respect, none of those schools bring to the table what UL brings. UL has a $100 million athletic budget, athletic facilities that are arguably NFL and NBA quality, and a national brand. They are a basketball flagship for any conference, and are borderline as a football flagship. BYU, Cincy or UH would all be excellent "running mates" for UL, but none are "top of the ticket" additions for expansion, as evidenced by the B12's recent decision to pass on expansion.

Your opinion of Louisville is way off from reality. The YUM center issue will come to a head soon. Louisville is hardly a national brand like UNC, Duke, Kentucky, UConn, or Kansas.

The bolded statement is fine without UConn in your list, but when you include UConn, Louisville is a better brand name than the Huskies in basketball overall with 3 NCs, 10 Final Fours, and 14 Elite 8s and 41 NCAA tourney appearances. Not to mention that Louisville's attendance at men's basketball games far exceeds UConn's.

Quote:NO way Louisville is a "flagship" football program in any p-5 conference. They have a 55k seat stadium for god's sakes and you are pretending they are a blue blood.

So you are telling me this is the resume of a "flagship" football program. LOL
Conference championships[edit]
1970: Missouri Valley Conference
1972: Missouri Valley Conference (co-champs)
2000: Conference USA
2001: Conference USA
2004: Conference USA
2006: Big East Conference
2011: Big East Conference (co-champs)
2012: Big East Conference (co-champs)

I think Orangefan overstated Louisville's football status by referring to them as "borderline" conference flagship program. But in terms of noveau Baron level status, I think even you will agree they have accomplished a lot since 2001.

In that time frame their accomplishments on the football field are just a tab below WVU and TCU while in terms of attendance are well ahead of TCU.

The B12 could have easily added Louisville and Cincinnati to WVU and TCU to get to 12 back in 2011 just as the ACC could have easily added Louisville and WVU to Syracuse and Pitt that same year to get to 16.

Both conferences chose not to do so and only time will tell if they were wise decisions or not.

Cheers,
Neil

How is 3 NC's better than 4 NC's? We get it, you hate that UCONN is a national brand. Accept it and move on with your life.

First, I don't hate UConn. I have repeatedly said several times over the past four years that I wish the ACC had taken SU, Pitt, WVU, and Louisville back in 2011 and then when Maryland left, taken UConn as their replacement. I have also maintained that in football at least, SU should try and schedule Rutgers, UConn, Maryland, and Army as much as possible rather than the likes of LSU (and now Wisconsin).

Second, if NCAA NCs were the only measuring stick than Louisville would still belong on the list provided since their three matches Kansas' three. Since Kansas was on the list provided but Louisville wasn't, I made the case that either the list should include Louisville or that UConn should come off the list since making the list obviously had more involved than NCAA NCs. And in terms of what that criteria could be outside of NCs, such as FF, E8, tourney appearances, attendance, etc. then Louisville is ahead of UConn.

Capiche?

Cheers,
Neil

Did I say you hate UCONN? Hmm, lemme take a look......nope, not there. I did however say that you hate that UCONN is a national brand. Accept that UCONN is a national brand and move on with your life. It's just that simple.

Reading comprehension...it's your friend.

I think UConn MBB gets a boost from WBB always being in the hunt as well. But from a FB perspective different story. I remember the disappointment of having to play UConn in a BCS game. The OU fanbase was less than excited.

But on the bright side I like the new/old coach and OC. Seems like a step in the right direction to getting the fanbase energized.

(01-19-2017 08:09 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 09:33 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 08:59 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 08:19 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 02:13 PM)p23570 Wrote:  Your opinion of Louisville is way off from reality. The YUM center issue will come to a head soon. Louisville is hardly a national brand like UNC, Duke, Kentucky, UConn, or Kansas.

The bolded statement is fine without UConn in your list, but when you include UConn, Louisville is a better brand name than the Huskies in basketball overall with 3 NCs, 10 Final Fours, and 14 Elite 8s and 41 NCAA tourney appearances. Not to mention that Louisville's attendance at men's basketball games far exceeds UConn's.

Quote:NO way Louisville is a "flagship" football program in any p-5 conference. They have a 55k seat stadium for god's sakes and you are pretending they are a blue blood.

So you are telling me this is the resume of a "flagship" football program. LOL
Conference championships[edit]
1970: Missouri Valley Conference
1972: Missouri Valley Conference (co-champs)
2000: Conference USA
2001: Conference USA
2004: Conference USA
2006: Big East Conference
2011: Big East Conference (co-champs)
2012: Big East Conference (co-champs)

I think Orangefan overstated Louisville's football status by referring to them as "borderline" conference flagship program. But in terms of noveau Baron level status, I think even you will agree they have accomplished a lot since 2001.

In that time frame their accomplishments on the football field are just a tab below WVU and TCU while in terms of attendance are well ahead of TCU.

The B12 could have easily added Louisville and Cincinnati to WVU and TCU to get to 12 back in 2011 just as the ACC could have easily added Louisville and WVU to Syracuse and Pitt that same year to get to 16.

Both conferences chose not to do so and only time will tell if they were wise decisions or not.

Cheers,
Neil

How is 3 NC's better than 4 NC's? We get it, you hate that UCONN is a national brand. Accept it and move on with your life.

First, I don't hate UConn. I have repeatedly said several times over the past four years that I wish the ACC had taken SU, Pitt, WVU, and Louisville back in 2011 and then when Maryland left, taken UConn as their replacement. I have also maintained that in football at least, SU should try and schedule Rutgers, UConn, Maryland, and Army as much as possible rather than the likes of LSU (and now Wisconsin).

Second, if NCAA NCs were the only measuring stick than Louisville would still belong on the list provided since their three matches Kansas' three. Since Kansas was on the list provided but Louisville wasn't, I made the case that either the list should include Louisville or that UConn should come off the list since making the list obviously had more involved than NCAA NCs. And in terms of what that criteria could be outside of NCs, such as FF, E8, tourney appearances, attendance, etc. then Louisville is ahead of UConn.

Capiche?

Cheers,
Neil

Did I say you hate UCONN? Hmm, lemme take a look......nope, not there. I did however say that you hate that UCONN is a national brand. Accept that UCONN is a national brand and move on with your life. It's just that simple.

Reading comprehension...it's your friend.

And nowhere did I say that UConn isn't a national brand. Just that either the grouping provided by another should have included Louisville along with UConn or it should have left both off.

As you say, reading comprehension is your friend.

Cheers,
Neil