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Post: #21
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 04:58 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 04:41 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 02:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  I expect within the next 5 years the United Methodist Church will no longer be United. Either a portion of the American Church splits off and allows gay ministers or they do a de facto split and allow churches to choose whether to accept gay ministers.

They're trying to figure out a structure that allows the latter in order to avoid a split. The African and Asian churches, a growing part of the United Methodists, are strongly opposed to gay ministers. Most of the South is as well. Most of the North wants all of the church to accept gay ministers. Many churches have joined the Reconciling Ministries (liberal) or the Confessing Movement (conservative).

The Anglican's (Episcopalian) churches may schism over this too. I know awhile ago some churches in the first world tried to change dioceses and have their church under a conservative bishop. I think it all kicked off when a gay bishop was given a diocese to manage in New Hampshire.
The Episcopalian situation is maddening. Put 20 Episcopalians in a room and you'll get 20 points of view that are all equally "valid." Different parishes in the same diocese can sometimes be radically different. My wife is an Episcopalian and I went to church with her a few times when I was exploring the Faith after 10 years away from it. I couldn't stay because I had no clear idea on what they believed as a church.

It's a church by church thing and I'm ok with that, my diocese doesn't allow the performance of same sex marriages.
01-11-2017 05:55 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 05:48 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  As an United Methodist, I find the church to be maddening. I am leaning more and more to Catholicism or Orthodox.

My mother was steamed when the United Methodist Women invited Hillary to talk.

Methodist is a religion about an individual relationship with God. There is no pastor or pope to tell you what the correct interpretation of the Bible must be. So Methodist churches range from fundamentalist to very liberal. That has been a strength of the Methodist Church, a respect that others can have different interpretations.

The leadership of the Methodist Church for decades has been very liberal. The mainstream tolerates them because they are good people doing God's work. And they don't try to force their beliefs on the rest of us. However, that is changing. I got an e-mail from the Conference where they said, "I'm not saying God was displeased with the election result..." Which of course means that he did believe that. It was offensive. Especially as vile and amoral as the liberals' candidate was.
01-11-2017 06:01 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #23
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
Its always interesting to see how many are more married to their denomination than even the bible itself. They know their denominations practices & traditions inside and out, but know the actual Scripture very little.

Its almost totally political, just within a religious setting with nicer people.
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2017 06:09 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
01-11-2017 06:01 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 06:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 05:48 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  As an United Methodist, I find the church to be maddening. I am leaning more and more to Catholicism or Orthodox.

My mother was steamed when the United Methodist Women invited Hillary to talk.

Methodist is a religion about an individual relationship with God. There is no pastor or pope to tell you what the correct interpretation of the Bible must be. So Methodist churches range from fundamentalist to very liberal. That has been a strength of the Methodist Church, a respect that others can have different interpretations.

The leadership of the Methodist Church for decades has been very liberal. The mainstream tolerates them because they are good people doing God's work. And they don't try to force their beliefs on the rest of us. However, that is changing. I got an e-mail from the Conference where they said, "I'm not saying God was displeased with the election result..." Which of course means that he did believe that. It was offensive. Especially as vile and amoral as the liberals' candidate was.

I agree. John and Charles Wesley were great men and their take on Christianity is correct. My beef is with the leadership which as you said, is changing. My own church is very liberal but the people there are great but political matters are creeping in.

I would be Catholic but there are three things stopping me. 1. Transubstantiation. 2. Emphasis on Mary. 3. Confession.
01-11-2017 06:14 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #25
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 06:14 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  I would be Catholic but there are three things stopping me. 1. Transubstantiation. 2. Emphasis on Mary. 3. Confession.


Why worry about man made divisions at all? Its much better to just accpet Christ and rely on your bible as the source of your doctrines.

You can still worship with any church or mutiple churches and denominations. I can get edification and good teaching from a wide variety of denominational settings. Even those who I disagree with on certain issues or practices.

NONE of these different denominations will exist after Christ returns and sets up His Kingdom Age. You are with with him, or you are not. Your denomination is meaningless to Him.
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2017 06:39 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
01-11-2017 06:29 PM
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ArmyBlazer Online
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Post: #26
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 05:48 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  As an United Methodist, I find the church to be maddening. I am leaning more and more to Catholicism or Orthodox.

My mother was steamed when the United Methodist Women invited Hillary to talk.

I grew up as a front row Southern Baptist, went to an evangelical Protestant high school, and my freshman year of college was at Samford (Southern Baptist), so I grew up steeped in Protestantism. I became incredibly disillusioned with Protestant Christianity and completely walked away from the Faith and was gone for a decade. It's only in the last couple of years that I've begun to really explore the history and various doctrines of Christianity. To me, the only real options are Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

I should add that I'm not trying to be arrogantly dismissive of Protestantism. I know a lot of good Christians who are in those churches and I'm sympathetic with Luther on some issues.
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2017 07:03 PM by ArmyBlazer.)
01-11-2017 06:58 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 06:29 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 06:14 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  I would be Catholic but there are three things stopping me. 1. Transubstantiation. 2. Emphasis on Mary. 3. Confession.


Why worry about man made divisions at all? Its much better to just accpet Christ and rely on your bible as the source of your doctrines.

You can still worship with any church or mutiple churches and denominations. I can get edification and good teaching from a wide variety of denominational settings. Even those who I disagree with on certain issues or practices.

NONE of these different denominations will exist after Christ returns and sets up His Kingdom Age. You are with with him, or you are not. Your denomination is meaningless to Him.

The problem with relying on yourself for doctrinal issues is what is to stop you from falling into heresy? The reason the Church has called counsels throughout its history isn't because they just wanted an excuse to get together. It's because people were coming up with their own, heretical, ideas about what Christianity is and people were being led astray.

As an aside, that is one of my biggest problems with non-demoninational Protestantism. It may be wildly popular, but who keeps the pastor from leading the flock astray?
01-11-2017 07:02 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 06:14 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 06:01 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 05:48 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  As an United Methodist, I find the church to be maddening. I am leaning more and more to Catholicism or Orthodox.

My mother was steamed when the United Methodist Women invited Hillary to talk.

Methodist is a religion about an individual relationship with God. There is no pastor or pope to tell you what the correct interpretation of the Bible must be. So Methodist churches range from fundamentalist to very liberal. That has been a strength of the Methodist Church, a respect that others can have different interpretations.

The leadership of the Methodist Church for decades has been very liberal. The mainstream tolerates them because they are good people doing God's work. And they don't try to force their beliefs on the rest of us. However, that is changing. I got an e-mail from the Conference where they said, "I'm not saying God was displeased with the election result..." Which of course means that he did believe that. It was offensive. Especially as vile and amoral as the liberals' candidate was.

I agree. John and Charles Wesley were great men and their take on Christianity is correct. My beef is with the leadership which as you said, is changing. My own church is very liberal but the people there are great but political matters are creeping in.

I would be Catholic but there are three things stopping me. 1. Transubstantiation. 2. Emphasis on Mary. 3. Confession.

Kind of feel the same way about my very liberal church. And they know they are very liberal for Methodists. If not for the youth group we would probably start exploring other churches. The social issues don't really bother me (gays in the ministry even though I don't agree), but they are starting to get overtly pro-Democratic and that is offensive. And at times people (haven't seen the ministers do this yet) get very negative about other Christians who happen to be conservative.
01-11-2017 07:10 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 03:50 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  Please stop the Catholic-Protestant stuff before Ollie sees this thread.


Too late. 03-wink
01-11-2017 07:11 PM
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RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
As an aside, that is one of my biggest problems with non-demoninational Protestantism. It may be wildly popular, but who keeps the pastor from leading the flock astray?
[/quote]


A knowledge of the Bible will help in knowing when the pastor is leading the flock astray. You have to be like the Bereans where they would listen to the message and then read the Bible to make sure it was true.
01-11-2017 07:21 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 06:58 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 05:48 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  As an United Methodist, I find the church to be maddening. I am leaning more and more to Catholicism or Orthodox.

My mother was steamed when the United Methodist Women invited Hillary to talk.

I grew up as a front row Southern Baptist, went to an evangelical Protestant high school, and my freshman year of college was at Samford (Southern Baptist), so I grew up steeped in Protestantism. I became incredibly disillusioned with Protestant Christianity and completely walked away from the Faith and was gone for a decade. It's only in the last couple of years that I've begun to really explore the history and various doctrines of Christianity. To me, the only real options are Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

I should add that I'm not trying to be arrogantly dismissive of Protestantism. I know a lot of good Christians who are in those churches and I'm sympathetic with Luther on some issues.

I tend to agree with this.
01-11-2017 07:24 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 07:21 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  As an aside, that is one of my biggest problems with non-demoninational Protestantism. It may be wildly popular, but who keeps the pastor from leading the flock astray?


A knowledge of the Bible will help in knowing when the pastor is leading the flock astray. You have to be like the Bereans where they would listen to the message and then read the Bible to make sure it was true.
[/quote]

I get that and I do agree to a certain extent. You should read the Bible. However, you are then relying someone in the congregation to hopefully to catch the error, have the correct interpretation (which opens up its own pitfalls), and have a mechanism in place deal with the issue.
01-11-2017 07:48 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 07:48 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 07:21 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  As an aside, that is one of my biggest problems with non-demoninational Protestantism. It may be wildly popular, but who keeps the pastor from leading the flock astray?


A knowledge of the Bible will help in knowing when the pastor is leading the flock astray. You have to be like the Bereans where they would listen to the message and then read the Bible to make sure it was true.

I get that and I do agree to a certain extent. You should read the Bible. However, you are then relying someone in the congregation to hopefully to catch the error, have the correct interpretation (which opens up its own pitfalls), and have a mechanism in place deal with the issue.
[/quote]


As long as you caught the error that's what's important. It's not like you'll stand up during the service and hiss and tell the pastor that he's wrong. I've listened to many messages where the pastor said something I disagreed with. I just dismiss it and listen to the rest. If the pastor is intentionally giving you the wrong scoop then it's time to skedaddle from that church.

Before I attended a Calvary Chapel service any pastor could have told me a lot of things contrary to the Bible and I wouldn't have known the difference. But through 11 years of a Bible teaching church I learned…A LOT.

All churches have their agenda (?) I don't know if that's the correct term but if you read their literature and what their focus/believe system is you can tell more or less if that's what you're after.
01-11-2017 08:01 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #34
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 07:02 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  The problem with relying on yourself for doctrinal issues is what is to stop you from falling into heresy? The reason the Church has called counsels throughout its history isn't because they just wanted an excuse to get together. It's because people were coming up with their own, heretical, ideas about what Christianity is and people were being led astray.

As an aside, that is one of my biggest problems with non-demoninational Protestantism. It may be wildly popular, but who keeps the pastor from leading the flock astray?



The same thing that is supposed to keep ALL churches from falling into hersay......THE WORD OF GOD

If you are just blindly following a denomination or preacher, then how do you know he has not led you into false doctrine? Just because he says so or seems like a nice guy?

If you are reading your bible every day, then you are not being blindly led around by a pastor or leader.

God desires for us to search the scripture every day and PROVE the things we are taught in church or elsewhere, to test them by the WORD to see if they are indeed truth or not.

Again, there will be no different denominations when Christ returns, and He never desired for us to be divided up into denominations. So why tie yourself and your doctrines to a denomination?
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2017 10:54 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
01-11-2017 10:48 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 10:48 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 07:02 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  The problem with relying on yourself for doctrinal issues is what is to stop you from falling into heresy? The reason the Church has called counsels throughout its history isn't because they just wanted an excuse to get together. It's because people were coming up with their own, heretical, ideas about what Christianity is and people were being led astray.

As an aside, that is one of my biggest problems with non-demoninational Protestantism. It may be wildly popular, but who keeps the pastor from leading the flock astray?



The same thing that is supposed to keep ALL churches from falling into hersay......THE WORD OF GOD

If you are just blindly following a denomination or preacher, then how do you know he has not led you into false doctrine. Just because he says so or seems like a nice guy?

If you are reading your bible every day, then you are not being blindly led around by a pastor or leader.

God desires for us to search the scripture every day and PROVE the things we are taught in church or elsewhere, to test them by the WORD to see if they are indeed truth or not.

The problem is that people can read the bible in good conscience - including praying to the HS for guidance - and still draw different conclusions. That's why there are so many denominations today, and more constantly forming. Splintering forever.

At some point, you need to use Occam's Razor in figure out the commonality for these divergent views to get at the reason why people in good faith disagree with the bible.

On another note, why does apologetics even need to exist? A topic for another thread perhaps.
01-11-2017 10:57 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #36
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 08:01 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  As long as you caught the error that's what's important. It's not like you'll stand up during the service and hiss and tell the pastor that he's wrong. I've listened to many messages where the pastor said something I disagreed with. I just dismiss it and listen to the rest. If the pastor is intentionally giving you the wrong scoop then it's time to skedaddle from that church.

.


This is the same approach I take.

I can get a lot of edification from many different denominations, even the ones I disagree with on some doctrine.

The problem is a lot of people won't really accpet ANY teaching or understanding outside of their own denomination. Most simply rely on the church to tell them what to believe.

God intended for us to read and consume His Word daily.

Matt 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2017 11:00 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
01-11-2017 10:59 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #37
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 10:57 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The problem is that people can read the bible in good conscience - including praying to the HS for guidance - and still draw different conclusions. That's why there are so many denominations today, and more constantly forming. Splintering forever.

At some point, you need to use Occam's Razor in figure out the commonality for these divergent views to get at the reason why people in good faith disagree with the bible.



I used to believe that as well. It sounds really good to itching ears who don't want to have to really believe in the bible anyway. I've been there.

When I finally began truly studying the bible for myself, I learned that the disagreement over major doctrines are not really based on different interpretations, they are based more on ignorance, cherry picking, laziness or just plain bias based on denominational teaching.

Simply having good intentions does not equal sound scriptural study.

Also- its one thing to disagree on minor points, its another to disagree on major doctrines the bible lays out in plain English (or Greek, or Hebrew) over and over again in book after book after book.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2017 12:57 AM by ericsrevenge76.)
01-11-2017 11:03 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 06:01 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Its always interesting to see how many are more married to their denomination than even the bible itself.

That's because one "denomination" existed before the Bible.
01-12-2017 04:24 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
(01-11-2017 05:48 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  I am leaning more and more to Catholicism.

DEUS VULT!
01-12-2017 04:25 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Baptist Church to have lesbian couple as co-pastors
It's quite funny to talk to folks who think the Bible is intuitive. You can apparently just read it, form your own personal interpretations, and you're all good. You hold the fullness of the Gospel exclusively in your own brain. When you read the last word in Revelation, you are instantly granted more knowledge and theological prowess than 2000 years of Magisterium.

My goodness lol.

[Image: 87ba2b48c5e47861e4dc9d6c6c9e4af9.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2017 04:32 AM by shiftyeagle.)
01-12-2017 04:26 AM
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