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GFlash68 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
Is it possible that our high offensive rebound numbers come from the fact that we can not make shots so there are a lot of OR opportunities. Also, I have been complaining about the D all season and this game really is a result of bad D.
01-07-2017 01:31 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-07-2017 09:48 AM)Old School Flash Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 09:02 AM)dannyb73 Wrote:  If you guys expected more last night, you have a false sense of who/what this team is. It would have been nice had we shown up and competed, but this was EASY to see coming. OU is pretty good (IMO - will probably win the MAC) and they are tough at home. We were coming off Texas and an important and tough conference opener against BSU. Just so predictable IMO.

Predictable to me that KSU lost but not predictable how they lost. When the shots won't fall against a good opponent on the road, it is predictable that you lose. A KSU team with a veteran coaching staff that can't get their team to defend and play smart and under control is not predictable to me.

I have never seen a technical called for faking getting hit in the head. How out of focus can DLR be? He needs to be concerned with getting stronger and learning how to play basketball. Not devising ways to deceive referees. Glad he was caught on the video. Ridiculous!01-lauramac2

What concerns me is when the shots aren't falling you need to play better D. Last night that was not the case. the first run in the first half was a combination of shots not falling and the D being terrible. Also the turnovers were a majority of the time unforced errors. dribbling into double teams, forcing the ball into bad positions on the court and just plain carelessness. It is not like OU was playing lockdown, in your face D. Now OU is a good team with lots of weapons, but the effort was more concerning then the opponent.
01-07-2017 01:37 PM
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burden Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-07-2017 01:31 PM)GFlash68 Wrote:  Is it possible that our high offensive rebound numbers come from the fact that we can not make shots so there are a lot of OR opportunities. Also, I have been complaining about the D all season and this game really is a result of bad D.

My thought exactly. However we are pretty good on a % basis. No doubt we get a lot of practice though.
01-07-2017 01:57 PM
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luckyflash Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-07-2017 01:57 PM)burden Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 01:31 PM)GFlash68 Wrote:  Is it possible that our high offensive rebound numbers come from the fact that we can not make shots so there are a lot of OR opportunities. Also, I have been complaining about the D all season and this game really is a result of bad D.

My thought exactly. However we are pretty good on a % basis. No doubt we get a lot of practice though.

+1
01-07-2017 02:14 PM
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anti-zip Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
Going in I was expecting a loss. OU is one of if not the best team in the MAC. They had a lot of guys coming back this year. We returned 3 guys. However, it's very discouraging how bad we looked. I think this game exposed one of the biggest flaws we have and that's the immobility of our post players. When Hall and De La Rosa are on the court together it significantly hurts our ability to defend the three. They're both capable of defending the post but neither is strong in help defense when a guard gets beat, so the guards can't take chances. More importantly neither is quick enough to get out to the three point arc if the opponent has a big that can shoot. The last two years we were able to cover up Hall's defensive shortcomings with Spicer and to a lesser degree Ortiz. Those guys were both long and quick. De La Rosa is long but far from quick on defense. I think the only answer is to give Pippen more minutes with Hall and start bringing De La Rosa in when Hall is out. Increasing Alonzo Walker's role is another option but he doesn't have Pippen's length. If we continue to run Hall and De La Rosa out there together I think we're going to see more defensive efforts like this. At this point the MAC knows Hall and so far both MAC opponents have shown they're going to try to expose him.

The way our lineup is constructed doesn't play well in 2017. This is an early 2000's lineup. In the age of the three pointer you can't get away with two big sluggish defenders inside. On this same note, it's still concerning that we haven't improved our own three point shooting. Last year we were a bad three pointing shooting team, real bad, and I think it really held us back. This year we're shooting more threes but we are actually shooting a lower percentage, 31.7% down from 32.8% last year. At this current rate, we're averaging 0.95 points per possession when we attempt a three vs. 1.03 points per possession when we attempt a two or draw two free throws. That's down right awful. Compare that to OU, they're scoring 1.18 points when they attempt a three vs. 1.06 points when they attempt a two or draw 2 free throws. That's the reason the three pointer has become so important. Teams have learned you can score more points, on average, when attempting a three than when you take it inside. This is a fact that we still haven't realized.

Last comment, I know I just said I would start Pippen... but not next game. I would sit him one game for the cheap foul on Campbell. That was a dangerous uncalled for play and I don't like it. Between that and De La Rosa's antics, I thought we displayed a lack of class which is disappointing.
01-07-2017 06:19 PM
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KSU Agee Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
Immediately when the final horn blew, jimmy hall went to the locker room, while all his teammates formed a line and shook hands with the opposition. One Kent player called for hall to come back repeatedly, but hall kept on walking. I'm interested to see if this affects the team in any way, or if it's non-news.
01-07-2017 09:58 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-07-2017 06:19 PM)anti-zip Wrote:  Going in I was expecting a loss. OU is one of if not the best team in the MAC. They had a lot of guys coming back this year. We returned 3 guys. However, it's very discouraging how bad we looked. I think this game exposed one of the biggest flaws we have and that's the immobility of our post players. When Hall and De La Rosa are on the court together it significantly hurts our ability to defend the three. They're both capable of defending the post but neither is strong in help defense when a guard gets beat, so the guards can't take chances. More importantly neither is quick enough to get out to the three point arc if the opponent has a big that can shoot. The last two years we were able to cover up Hall's defensive shortcomings with Spicer and to a lesser degree Ortiz. Those guys were both long and quick. De La Rosa is long but far from quick on defense. I think the only answer is to give Pippen more minutes with Hall and start bringing De La Rosa in when Hall is out. Increasing Alonzo Walker's role is another option but he doesn't have Pippen's length. If we continue to run Hall and De La Rosa out there together I think we're going to see more defensive efforts like this. At this point the MAC knows Hall and so far both MAC opponents have shown they're going to try to expose him.

The way our lineup is constructed doesn't play well in 2017. This is an early 2000's lineup. In the age of the three pointer you can't get away with two big sluggish defenders inside. On this same note, it's still concerning that we haven't improved our own three point shooting. Last year we were a bad three pointing shooting team, real bad, and I think it really held us back. This year we're shooting more threes but we are actually shooting a lower percentage, 31.7% down from 32.8% last year. At this current rate, we're averaging 0.95 points per possession when we attempt a three vs. 1.03 points per possession when we attempt a two or draw two free throws. That's down right awful. Compare that to OU, they're scoring 1.18 points when they attempt a three vs. 1.06 points when they attempt a two or draw 2 free throws. That's the reason the three pointer has become so important. Teams have learned you can score more points, on average, when attempting a three than when you take it inside. This is a fact that we still haven't realized.

Last comment, I know I just said I would start Pippen... but not next game. I would sit him one game for the cheap foul on Campbell. That was a dangerous uncalled for play and I don't like it. Between that and De La Rosa's antics, I thought we displayed a lack of class which is disappointing.

Never really thought of the Hall/De La Rosa combo that way. I was so excited to see that Hall had a big strong frontcourt mate. Good read.
01-08-2017 08:55 AM
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GFlash68 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-07-2017 06:19 PM)anti-zip Wrote:  Going in I was expecting a loss. OU is one of if not the best team in the MAC. They had a lot of guys coming back this year. We returned 3 guys. However, it's very discouraging how bad we looked. I think this game exposed one of the biggest flaws we have and that's the immobility of our post players. When Hall and De La Rosa are on the court together it significantly hurts our ability to defend the three. They're both capable of defending the post but neither is strong in help defense when a guard gets beat, so the guards can't take chances. More importantly neither is quick enough to get out to the three point arc if the opponent has a big that can shoot. The last two years we were able to cover up Hall's defensive shortcomings with Spicer and to a lesser degree Ortiz. Those guys were both long and quick. De La Rosa is long but far from quick on defense. I think the only answer is to give Pippen more minutes with Hall and start bringing De La Rosa in when Hall is out. Increasing Alonzo Walker's role is another option but he doesn't have Pippen's length. If we continue to run Hall and De La Rosa out there together I think we're going to see more defensive efforts like this. At this point the MAC knows Hall and so far both MAC opponents have shown they're going to try to expose him.

The way our lineup is constructed doesn't play well in 2017. This is an early 2000's lineup. In the age of the three pointer you can't get away with two big sluggish defenders inside. On this same note, it's still concerning that we haven't improved our own three point shooting. Last year we were a bad three pointing shooting team, real bad, and I think it really held us back. This year we're shooting more threes but we are actually shooting a lower percentage, 31.7% down from 32.8% last year. At this current rate, we're averaging 0.95 points per possession when we attempt a three vs. 1.03 points per possession when we attempt a two or draw two free throws. That's down right awful. Compare that to OU, they're scoring 1.18 points when they attempt a three vs. 1.06 points when they attempt a two or draw 2 free throws. That's the reason the three pointer has become so important. Teams have learned you can score more points, on average, when attempting a three than when you take it inside. This is a fact that we still haven't realized.

Last comment, I know I just said I would start Pippen... but not next game. I would sit him one game for the cheap foul on Campbell. That was a dangerous uncalled for play and I don't like it. Between that and De La Rosa's antics, I thought we displayed a lack of class which is disappointing.

I am in total agreement with this post, anti zip, and I was about to write one just like yours. Thank you for saving me the keystrokes. Ditto on Pippen. That was a bone head move. Also, it is about time that we and Coach recognize that JH is not the player that we thought he was. He is about as poor of a senior example as any team could have. I am afraid that J Walker is being corrupted by our environment. That means seniors and coaches for letting it happen.
01-08-2017 11:00 AM
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Post: #29
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
It's a 75 mile drive for me to the campus, and I don't think I'll go to another game. I really don't think Jim McDonald, Gary Waters, Stan Heath, Jim Christian or Geno Ford would have put up for a minute with any of the nonsense that has been described. I hate to say it, but with the Ohio game I'm starting to be reminded of the Dave Grube years. Much more winning than then, of course, but a sense that there is a lack of discipline and accountability, and a sense that there is no leadership.
01-08-2017 04:51 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
For what its worth, several OU players were complaining afterward about repeated cheap shots below the belt by our guys. If that is the case, count me in as another one who has no desire to see another game.
01-08-2017 06:00 PM
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anti-zip Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
I know they reviewed Campbell's claim that De La Rosa hit him below the belt. On the replays I thought it looked accidental and evidently the refs did too as they didn't call anything. I've been at all the home games so far and haven't noticed that happen. So I'm skeptical. I think it would be really dumb for our guys to start doing that in an ESPN game and if that was happening I think we would've seen either some retaliation or more reviews by the refs.

It looked like there was a ton of s#it talking going on during that game. Every time Kaminski hit a three it looked like he started talking to our bench. His mouth didn't seem to stop. I noticed him get in Edwin's face on the play De La Rosa flopped after Edwin beat him for 2 or 3 offensive rebounds then finally finished it. If he worked as hard on the glass (2.6 rpg at 6'8"...) as he worked his mouth, he would be a heck of a player.
01-08-2017 08:08 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-07-2017 09:58 PM)KSU Agee Wrote:  Immediately when the final horn blew, jimmy hall went to the locker room, while all his teammates formed a line and shook hands with the opposition. One Kent player called for hall to come back repeatedly, but hall kept on walking. I'm interested to see if this affects the team in any way, or if it's non-news.

No surprise to me. If you remember last years tourney debacle against BGSU Hall's body language was deplorable. When your 2 best players (Hall, Jwalker and his 10 assists) aren't good team guys you're going nowhere. Consistent theme in SENDEROFF era (see Kris Brewer). I'll stop short of calling for a change at top but things have to change....
01-09-2017 09:16 AM
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dannyb73 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
You folks ranting on Jimmy Hall are laughable. Big deal. The guy hates to lose or occasionally has bad body language. Ben Simmons LY averaged 19 ppg and 11.8 rpg. and Jimmy averages 17.4 and 11.1 --- he is everything we need and an ambassador for Kent State. Any other thoughts are extremely short sighted IMO.

Also, keep in mind, Jimmy could have left last year and stayed out of loyalty. Temple and Seton Hall wanted him....among others. Then also, some of our fans heckle him at home games. That is sad. He is a kid and might be extremely frustrated, so it might be time to pump the brakes on your criticisms.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2017 11:34 AM by dannyb73.)
01-09-2017 11:25 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-09-2017 11:25 AM)dannyb73 Wrote:  You folks ranting on Jimmy Hall are laughable. Big deal. The guy hates to lose or occasionally has bad body language. Ben Simmons LY averaged 19 ppg and 11.8 rpg. and Jimmy averages 17.4 and 11.1 --- he is everything we need and an ambassador for Kent State. Any other thoughts are extremely short sighted IMO.

Also, keep in mind, Jimmy could have left last year and stayed out of loyalty. Temple and Seton Hall wanted him....among others. Then also, some of our fans heckle him at home games. That is sad. He is a kid and might be extremely frustrated, so it might be time to pump the brakes on your criticisms.

I DONT want an ambassador for Kent refusing to shake hands after a loss. Bad look and not the first time he's done it. Been in college for 5 years he should know better. And I never said he wasn't talented. but talented and being a leader and role model are 2 entirely different things. You have 2 extraordinarily talented players and a rest of a roster trying to find their way and role. they need to be leaders and be role models.
(This post was last modified: 01-09-2017 12:49 PM by ksu315.)
01-09-2017 12:48 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-09-2017 12:48 PM)ksu315 Wrote:  
(01-09-2017 11:25 AM)dannyb73 Wrote:  You folks ranting on Jimmy Hall are laughable. Big deal. The guy hates to lose or occasionally has bad body language. Ben Simmons LY averaged 19 ppg and 11.8 rpg. and Jimmy averages 17.4 and 11.1 --- he is everything we need and an ambassador for Kent State. Any other thoughts are extremely short sighted IMO.

Also, keep in mind, Jimmy could have left last year and stayed out of loyalty. Temple and Seton Hall wanted him....among others. Then also, some of our fans heckle him at home games. That is sad. He is a kid and might be extremely frustrated, so it might be time to pump the brakes on your criticisms.

I DONT want an ambassador for Kent refusing to shake hands after a loss. Bad look and not the first time he's done it. Been in college for 5 years he should know better. And I never said he wasn't talented. but talented and being a leader and role model are 2 entirely different things. You have 2 extraordinarily talented players and a rest of a roster trying to find their way and role. they need to be leaders and be role models.

Bad look for the 3 people who give a rip? Nobody other than a few fans on here is making a big deal of it. Maybe there was a reason for it. Maybe there was a lot of trash talking during the game and the coach told him not to get in the handshake line. IMO, in the grand scheme of things, no big deal. To judge a kid off of 2-3 minor incidents over a 3 year career is comical to me.
01-09-2017 05:29 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
I was alarmed by what I saw.

1) It appeared Jalen Avery was the only player who didn't give up. The faces of the other players was worrisome. I understand nights don't always go your way, but never give up, and always find a way to do SOMETHING or some things positive.

2) J Walker had a major attitude when teammates tried to lift his spirits or coaches tried to coach him up. If the kid isn't going to listen, then have we seen his ceiling?

3) The Jimmy Hall thing. I didn't make a big deal of it. I just saw it happen. When a young player is calling for him to come back and line up, and that player is ignored, that's not cool...

4) A good amount of die hard students drove 3 1/2 hours to support the good guys. To see what I saw, I am disappointed. I hope the team is more resilient than this.
01-09-2017 05:59 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-09-2017 11:25 AM)dannyb73 Wrote:  You folks ranting on Jimmy Hall are laughable. Big deal. The guy hates to lose or occasionally has bad body language. Ben Simmons LY averaged 19 ppg and 11.8 rpg. and Jimmy averages 17.4 and 11.1 --- he is everything we need and an ambassador for Kent State. Any other thoughts are extremely short sighted IMO.

Also, keep in mind, Jimmy could have left last year and stayed out of loyalty. Temple and Seton Hall wanted him....among others. Then also, some of our fans heckle him at home games. That is sad. He is a kid and might be extremely frustrated, so it might be time to pump the brakes on your criticisms.

I know you realize how hard it is for me to leave this comment alone... I'll save you the stats and just assume you aren't actually trying to say Hall and Simmons are comparable on the court. To your point, I would say Campbell is a better comp. Like it or not, he's kind of the gold standard for MAC big men right now as the returning MAC POY. Campbell is ahead of Hall, but they're comparable.

As far as off the court, my perception is that Hall is not similar to Simmons in this regard either... but that's a good thing. Simmons is a diva that was filming a documentary on himself during his freshman year that included a lot of things that I viewed as disrespectful to LSU and his coaches. So I'm hoping they're not similar off the court :)

To your actual point about the level of appreciation Hall receives, since I might've started this by my criticism of our defensive centered around pairing him and De La Rosa, I'll say this. Hall frustrates me often, as does the rest of this team, but I actually feel bad for him. I think this team was poorly built to take full advantage of his skill set and it's often resulted in him forcing bad shots and getting turnovers. I detailed earlier how we need to pair him with an athletic, defensive minded big but let's look at the offensive end too. He's shown the ability to find open shooters when he's doubled. He's also proven to be a very capable post-to-post passer when doubled (see most of Spicer's dunks last year). These two facts should make it dangerous for teams to double team him. However, De La Rosa is very slow getting the ball up when he receives a pass, so his post-to-post passing ability doesn't scare teams. From what I've seen Walker is the best post we have at catching and going immediately up, but at 6'5" it's tough for that to be his roll. Also, we don't have shooters so teams don't need to respect his ability to find open shooters. We brought in one shooter to try to remedy this but he was a defensive liability. Since Hall has limited mobility defensively, in my opinion, we couldn't afford to try to play DeBerry with Hall. He could easily be averaging around 5 assists a game right now if this team was built to take advantage of his strengths. Imagine what this team could look like if we replaced DeBerry with a true 3 and D guy and Spicer or a player with his skill set was starting next to Hall. It almost makes me wonder if they actually expected him to leave after last year.

As for the handshake, Hall didn't push anyone in the back on a fast break layup, he didn't get a technical for flopping, and to my knowledge he didn't hit anyone in the groin (still not convinced we're guilty of that claim). So whatever, might not be a good look, but whatever.
01-09-2017 06:59 PM
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burden Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Kent State @ Ohio
After reading all this does anybody need some tickets? Seriously a lot of this stuff points to the coaching staff. Anti- zip your opinion is well respected by me and I have to believe the coaching staff must understand and agree with most of it. Why haven't they fixed it over the years? My guess is they just can't consistently recruit what they need. Maybe it's the coaches or maybe it's just a tough school/athletic department to sell. I am not sure. All I know is I haven't seen an NCAA team for 8 years (soon to be 9) and in a 12 team league that's not too good.
01-09-2017 08:24 PM
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RE: Kent State @ Ohio
It amuses me that when a player 23 years old does something well, he be the man. Same person acts disrespectful, he is a kid. I guess it is just the spin desired for the narrative.
01-09-2017 10:11 PM
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dannyb73 Offline
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RE: Kent State @ Ohio
(01-09-2017 06:59 PM)anti-zip Wrote:  
(01-09-2017 11:25 AM)dannyb73 Wrote:  You folks ranting on Jimmy Hall are laughable. Big deal. The guy hates to lose or occasionally has bad body language. Ben Simmons LY averaged 19 ppg and 11.8 rpg. and Jimmy averages 17.4 and 11.1 --- he is everything we need and an ambassador for Kent State. Any other thoughts are extremely short sighted IMO.

Also, keep in mind, Jimmy could have left last year and stayed out of loyalty. Temple and Seton Hall wanted him....among others. Then also, some of our fans heckle him at home games. That is sad. He is a kid and might be extremely frustrated, so it might be time to pump the brakes on your criticisms.

I know you realize how hard it is for me to leave this comment alone... I'll save you the stats and just assume you aren't actually trying to say Hall and Simmons are comparable on the court. To your point, I would say Campbell is a better comp. Like it or not, he's kind of the gold standard for MAC big men right now as the returning MAC POY. Campbell is ahead of Hall, but they're comparable.

As far as off the court, my perception is that Hall is not similar to Simmons in this regard either... but that's a good thing. Simmons is a diva that was filming a documentary on himself during his freshman year that included a lot of things that I viewed as disrespectful to LSU and his coaches. So I'm hoping they're not similar off the court :)

To your actual point about the level of appreciation Hall receives, since I might've started this by my criticism of our defensive centered around pairing him and De La Rosa, I'll say this. Hall frustrates me often, as does the rest of this team, but I actually feel bad for him. I think this team was poorly built to take full advantage of his skill set and it's often resulted in him forcing bad shots and getting turnovers. I detailed earlier how we need to pair him with an athletic, defensive minded big but let's look at the offensive end too. He's shown the ability to find open shooters when he's doubled. He's also proven to be a very capable post-to-post passer when doubled (see most of Spicer's dunks last year). These two facts should make it dangerous for teams to double team him. However, De La Rosa is very slow getting the ball up when he receives a pass, so his post-to-post passing ability doesn't scare teams. From what I've seen Walker is the best post we have at catching and going immediately up, but at 6'5" it's tough for that to be his roll. Also, we don't have shooters so teams don't need to respect his ability to find open shooters. We brought in one shooter to try to remedy this but he was a defensive liability. Since Hall has limited mobility defensively, in my opinion, we couldn't afford to try to play DeBerry with Hall. He could easily be averaging around 5 assists a game right now if this team was built to take advantage of his strengths. Imagine what this team could look like if we replaced DeBerry with a true 3 and D guy and Spicer or a player with his skill set was starting next to Hall. It almost makes me wonder if they actually expected him to leave after last year.

As for the handshake, Hall didn't push anyone in the back on a fast break layup, he didn't get a technical for flopping, and to my knowledge he didn't hit anyone in the groin (still not convinced we're guilty of that claim). So whatever, might not be a good look, but whatever.

That is my main point (bold above) and while I am not comparing him to the 1st overall pick in the NBA draft to say he's that good, I am saying his production is similar to that guy. He produces at a high level and hasn't been trouble. That works for me all day, every day.
01-09-2017 10:28 PM
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