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Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
(12-31-2016 04:07 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(12-31-2016 02:58 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Let's hear all of the excuses that almost no one allows for Bailiff ....

While Bailiff should have been fired, you do have a point about Rhoades. Though worth noting that Bailiff had plenty of slack his first couple years. The voices really didn't start to raise against Bailiff until 2010, year 4. Comparing complaints about Bailiff in year 10 to against Rhoades in year 3 is silly, and Bailiff walked into a roster without much depth, but with multiple NFL players and some good surrounding talent. Can't say the same about Rhoades.



.

The way I remember it, a lot of people were unhappy with Bailiff when he was hired. Mostly about him playing for OT in a playoff game. But then he lost to Nichols State and then we got got stomped by Baylor ( I was at both games) and I am sure i was not alone in volunteering to chip in a few dollars for a moving van. After two games.
It died down a bit with the 2008 campaign, then came right back and has been a fixture here ever since.

On the rhoades/bailiff thing, I have noticed also that all the excuses denied for Bailiff (injuries, youth, whatever) are allowed not only for Rhoades but all our other coaches, even Graham, and the usual disclaimer is either the Xth year thing or the NC thing.

I still like Rhoades. maybe we have set set out expactations (for THIS year) too high.
01-01-2017 01:49 AM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Post: #62
Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
The key this year will be getting to that 12-6 or 13-5 to get the extra bye in the tournament.

I figured if we didn't score 70 we wouldn't beat ODU on the road, but glad we could hang with them playing "their kind" of game. I think we beat these guys when they come out to our place.
01-01-2017 06:22 AM
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Tiki Owl Online
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Post: #63
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
(12-31-2016 02:58 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Let's hear all of the excuses that almost no one allows for Bailiff ....

So you are officially calling for a new HC then?
01-01-2017 07:15 AM
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Tiki Owl Online
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Post: #64
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
While our recruiting has improved greatly (with several 3 star gets) it still isn't at the Fab 5, Duke, Louisville, Kentuncky, UNC level meaning that you can be dominating with underclassmen. If you think that what Rhoades inherited is similar to what Scott Thompson had in the cupboard when he came to Rice then look at the record of the two thus far. While Thompson was facing stiffer competition (particularly in conference), he also didn't have 2 major season ending injuries at the start of year 2.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coac...son-2.html

As a refresher here is a link to the schedule the first year of Thompson's tenure and you can scroll through all 5 years.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/scho...edule.html

Also players Thompson found in the cupboard and were on the roster his first season(and played the bulk of the minutes) included Andy Gilchrist, Mike Girardi, D'Wayne Tanner, Michael Irving, and David Willie.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/scho.../1988.html
01-01-2017 07:49 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
(01-01-2017 01:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The way I remember it, a lot of people were unhappy with Bailiff when he was hired. Mostly about him playing for OT in a playoff game. But then he lost to Nichols State and then we got got stomped by Baylor ( I was at both games) and I am sure i was not alone in volunteering to chip in a few dollars for a moving van. After two games.
It died down a bit with the 2008 campaign, then came right back and has been a fixture here ever since.
On the rhoades/bailiff thing, I have noticed also that all the excuses denied for Bailiff (injuries, youth, whatever) are allowed not only for Rhoades but all our other coaches, even Graham, and the usual disclaimer is either the Xth year thing or the NC thing.
I still like Rhoades. maybe we have set set out expactations (for THIS year) too high.

I never had a problem with playing for OT in the playoff game. It's not the way I would have played it, but I've repeatedly gone over the odds on here, and it was no worse than an even bet. Besides, that didn't cost him the game. What cost him the game was turning the ball over when they had the chance to win in OT. And if they had the same turnover going for it in regulation, they almost certainly would have lost then too. Execution, execution, execution--I don't think I realized back then what a terrible chronic problem that would prove to be.

What I didn't like about the hire was that the year after that they had a losing record. He gets to the playoffs one year and has a losing record the next. That raises issues about his ability to maintain. And like the execution thingy, that has proved to be a chronic problem. His best team was 2008--with predominantly somebody else's recruits. The year before, with basically the same key players who were 7-6 in 2006 and 10-3 in 2008, and the three years after, were godawful. Rinse, repeat, with 2012-2014 followed by 2015-16.

The book is still out on Rhodes. Rebuilding is a long and winding road, not a straight path. I like what I see so far, but we aren't there yet.

The big differences for me are 1) Rhodes is in year 3, Bailiff just finished year 10, and 2) I know and understand what Rhodes is trying to do and I see it coming together, albeit slowly, but I have no idea what Bailiff's grand strategy is, except to out-athlete people, which can't work at Rice.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 09:04 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-01-2017 08:59 AM
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Ranger Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
Tiki and 69 make good points.

When Rhoades took over, he inherited almost nothing from Braun. How many players had transferred? Seems like it was 6 or 7. He had to build the program from scratch.

Bailiff inherited Clement, Dillard, and a host of other quality players.

And 69 correctly points out one should be able to expect more from a 10th year coach than a 3rd year coach.

The two situations are not the same.

Furthermore, Rhoades' program is going in the right direction. Bailiff's is not.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 11:26 AM by Ranger.)
01-01-2017 10:19 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
All you guys make good points, and I am in agreement with most of them. Not saying to compare Bailiff 2016 to Rhoades 2016. My post was primarily about the atmosphere surrounding bailiff's first three years. he didn't get a pass from us. he started out being criticized, even before he moved in, and while it abated some in 2008, his second year, there was still quite a bit. Our losses that year were blowouts. Owl69 himself has criticized that we had to take a TO at the start of the Nichols State game, and I presume he made the same criticism in 2007.

As for excuses, I note only that Tiki has mentioned injuries in regards to Rhoades, but in football we had a big discussion that concluded that injuries are no excuse. Injuries have been used as excuses in baseball, too. Not by Graham, but by us fans here. On the matter of personnel inherited, I will note only that nobody knew about Thor when Bailiff came on board, else Toad would have tried to steal him.

I too think we are on a good path with Rhoades and Langley. Personally, I think maybe my expectations were too high. I have heard so many glowing reports of our recruits and transfers, and now Rhoades has the bodies to execute his style, and so maybe I was expecting more.

I think since JK has been AD we are on a generally upward slope athletically, although the slope itself is somewhat gentle for me. The down points have been football and baseball. Football needs no explanation to this crowd, and I am surprised that Bailiff is still coach. baseball suffers only by comparison to where we once were. I have given up on ever returning to Omaha. If we want to talk of plateaus, then the plateau we are on is a nice one, but not as high as the one we were on a decade ago. But the other sports are all doing better, facilities are better.
(This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 10:50 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
01-01-2017 10:49 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
My big difference between Bailiff and either Rhoades or Wayne is that in the latter two cases there was from the start a well-enunciated plan, I knew what it was, I could see it coming together, and I thought it had a chance to work. Bailiff is ten years in and I still don't see any enunciated plan, I can't infer one except to out-athlete people, and I don't think that is a viable approach given the unique situation at Rice.
01-01-2017 10:58 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
(01-01-2017 10:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My big difference between Bailiff and either Rhoades or Wayne is that in the latter two cases there was from the start a well-enunciated plan, I knew what it was, I could see it coming together, and I thought it had a chance to work. Bailiff is ten years in and I still don't see any enunciated plan, I can't infer one except to out-athlete people, and I don't think that is a viable approach given the unique situation at Rice.

No argument here. I just think that was the case in the first three years, and he got plenty of criticism for it.

After about the fourth or fifth year, the time thing becomes a constant. Tom Landry in his 29th year was not expected to be much different than in his eighth or eleventh. You give a new coach time to get his recruits and implement his plan. So, tenth year same as sixth. We've been hearing about his seventh year or his eighth, or his ninth, and now his tenth as if we expected yearly growth. But basically, the idea is to get there and then to stay there. I agree bailiff has not been able to stay there, although maybe it could be said he got there a time or two.

hey, guys, don't take this as a defense of Bailiff. Fire him if you can, fine with me, but don't tell me he had blanket acceptance and support his first three years, and don't tell me injuries are no excuse, unless they are no excuse for everybody.
01-01-2017 12:15 PM
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Ranger Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
It is admirable and right for you to want us to apply equal standards to each standards.

I think however that many of us our looking beyond the won and loss record. It seems, at least to some of us, that Rhoades gets the best out of his players, making them more than perhaps they thought they could be. It seems the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. With Bailiff, it seems to be the contrary. And it seems as if it has been that way since his third year.

I remember one post, many years ago, possibly in his third year, against UCF at home. One of the first offensive plays for UCF. They score a TD on a long run. The poster said he saw the coaching staff UCF laughing derisively at the pathetic Rice defense.

The mantra that Rice has come into a game unprepared is a long standing one. The mantra that DB is clueless has been mentioned for a number of years. The joke - what do WG and DB have in common - neither can coach football - has been around a while. I have heard no such jokes lately about Rice basketball or Rhoades.

Rhoades comes up with innovative ideas and challenges his players. My perception is that DB just sits there and claps.

Rhoades goes to the gym. DB goes to the bank. (And why should DB expend any effort. Apparently he is coach for life.)
01-01-2017 01:08 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
I should note that my post probably started this discussion. I am still a strong believer in Rhoades and where he is taking the program. I was just hopeful that Rice would end up in the 80-120 range at the end of the year. At least so far, I am doubtful. Finishing around 150 or higher is a necessity to improve scheduling for next season, hopefully the team continues to progress and finishes strong.
01-01-2017 02:30 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
(01-01-2017 10:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I still don't see any enunciated plan, I can't infer one except to out-athlete people, and I don't think that is a viable approach given the unique situation at Rice.

You repeat this often.

Every Rice football team that has had some level of moderate success (1980-81, 1992, 1994-1997, 2006, 2008, 2012-2014 has done so because we've had better athletes than the Rice teams that have been less successful or not successful at all.

The problem (apparently) with football the last year or so has been that we don't appear to have athletes that are of a caliber that will be drafted by an NFL team, or asked to try out.

Wayne Graham is a great coach, but there is no argument that we out athleted 99% of Division 1 baseball teams during our 1999-2008 ten-year run. We had several seasons where the players we had drafted numbered in the double digits.

The defense of Rhoades (and it is a GOOD ONE) is that he took over a decimated roster and has now built it up with players everyone on this board believes are top quality and include a player who is getting All-American mentions prior to this year.

Willis's better teams had great players who made it professionally: Wilks, Almond, Harris.

Frankly, this basketball team is "out-athlete-ing" the teams we're beating, correct? I mean the athletes are the reason Rhoades didn't start immediately winning the first 2 years.

Everyone likes Rhoades. I get it, I do too.

But frankly, reading this board, I think a lot of people are in love with a young, fit coach who grabbed their attention with a SEALS training video (it's what people keep pining for every year). Good stuff, and nothing wrong with motivational coaching, etc. etc.

Ultimately, in every sport, if we don't recruit well, we're not going to compete well.

Bailiff has shown that he can win with good athletes. Rhoades is doing that as well. But he isn't any closer to Wayne Graham right now than Bailiff.

Because the roster is smaller, if Rhoades can get the right players in here, I think almost all of us think he has a better chance of reaching 'relevance' (NCAA's) in basketball than our non-P5 football team has.

I just think some of the rationalization and justification around here is based more on what some posters believe a coach 'should be', rather than on the field results.

And results are almost always tied to talent level on the field or court.
01-01-2017 06:46 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
(01-01-2017 01:08 PM)Ranger Wrote:  It is admirable and right for you to want us to apply equal standards to each standards.

I think however that many of us our looking beyond the won and loss record. It seems, at least to some of us, that Rhoades gets the best out of his players, making them more than perhaps they thought they could be. It seems the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. With Bailiff, it seems to be the contrary. And it seems as if it has been that way since his third year.

I remember one post, many years ago, possibly in his third year, against UCF at home. One of the first offensive plays for UCF. They score a TD on a long run. The poster said he saw the coaching staff UCF laughing derisively at the pathetic Rice defense.

The mantra that Rice has come into a game unprepared is a long standing one. The mantra that DB is clueless has been mentioned for a number of years. The joke - what do WG and DB have in common - neither can coach football - has been around a while. I have heard no such jokes lately about Rice basketball or Rhoades.

Rhoades comes up with innovative ideas and challenges his players. My perception is that DB just sits there and claps.

Rhoades goes to the gym. DB goes to the bank. (And why should DB expend any effort. Apparently he is coach for life.)

I don't remember mentioning the W-L record, for any coach.

I just have two points: Bailiff didn't have a lot of support early, and if injuries are not an excuse for a football coach in his Xth year, then they should not be for a basketball coach in his second year.

Never heard the one about the UCF coaches. Disagree with everything you say about Bailiff after that story. But what's the point - he is coach again for another year. I didn't hire him,, I can't fire him.
01-01-2017 09:20 PM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Post: #74
Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
(01-01-2017 02:30 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I should note that my post probably started this discussion. I am still a strong believer in Rhoades and where he is taking the program. I was just hopeful that Rice would end up in the 80-120 range at the end of the year. At least so far, I am doubtful. Finishing around 150 or higher is a necessity to improve scheduling for next season, hopefully the team continues to progress and finishes strong.

Hardly earth shattering, we came into last night's game ranked 110 on the road against 106 ranked ODU. We lost by 6, right about what you'd statistically "expect". Now we've dropped 3 spots to 113 and ODU is up to 102.

We're both still top four ranked in conference (but sure it sucks being 0-1).

This is a good team that HAS been in the 80-120 range all year since game one according to KenPom.
We aren't the conference favorites (yet) but I am very confident we'll be making noise in CUSA all season and hopefully post-season as well.
01-01-2017 10:08 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Rice at ODU Men's Hoops
(01-01-2017 06:46 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-01-2017 10:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I still don't see any enunciated plan, I can't infer one except to out-athlete people, and I don't think that is a viable approach given the unique situation at Rice.
You repeat this often.

I repeat it often because it's true. Disagree? Fine, what is the plan, in 50 words or less?

Quote:Every Rice football team that has had some level of moderate success (1980-81, 1992, 1994-1997, 2006, 2008, 2012-2014 has done so because we've had better athletes than the Rice teams that have been less successful or not successful at all.

Well, duh. Better athletes are going to outperform worse athletes most of the time. But here's the problem. When are we going to out-athlete Texas? Probably never. For that matter, given our restrictions, when are we going to out-athlete the likes of La Tech and Southern Miss? Probably not very often on a consistent basis. But we have to beat those people to succeed. That's where you need a plan to overcome that.

Quote:The problem (apparently) with football the last year or so has been that we don't appear to have athletes that are of a caliber that will be drafted by an NFL team, or asked to try out.

But... but... but... I thought Bailiff was such a great recruiter. And I thought the EZF was going to give our recruiting a boost. The majority of people on this year's team, and next year's, were recruited either coming off a conference championship or with the EZF a coming-out-of-the-ground reality. How did we fail so badly?

Quote:But frankly, reading this board, I think a lot of people are in love with a young, fit coach who grabbed their attention with a SEALS training video (it's what people keep pining for every year). Good stuff, and nothing wrong with motivational coaching, etc. etc.

None of that has anything to do with my feelings toward Rhoades or Bailiff or any coach in any sport anywhere in the world.

Quote:Ultimately, in every sport, if we don't recruit well, we're not going to compete well.

But there's more to it than that. How well we have to recruit is a function of what we do with the talent after it gets here. If we don't have an effective plan, no matter how good the talent is, we will underachieve. And given that we know we have recruiting limitations that our peers and those that we want to be our peers do not, it is pretty obvious that we need to do as much as we possibly can with scheme and execution to overcome what we can reasonably expect to be a talent gap most of the time.

And there's one more effect. The better you scheme and execute, the more you win. And the more you win, the better caliber of recruit is willing to give you a look.

Something else I repeat a lot is the old Bum Phillips comment about what it takes to win more games--get better players or get the players you have to play better. I don't think Rice can ever get back to national relevance doing only the former. And I don't see any aptitude on the part of Bailiff for doing the latter.

Quote:Bailiff has shown that he can win with good athletes.

Not as often IMO as he should.

Quote:I just think some of the rationalization and justification around here is based more on what some posters believe a coach 'should be', rather than on the field results.

I think there are some posters--the ones writing about Bailiff's weight or his clapping, for example--who might fit that description. To me, it's results, tempered only by whether I believe he/she is on the track toward getting results if the results haven't come yet. I remember my undergrad years, when Bo Hagan was coaching football and Don Knodel was coaching basketball. Neither had particularly impressive results the first couple of years, but you always got the sense that Knodel was going to get something done but Bo wasn't. Knodel won a conference championship--Rice's last for about 20 years; Bo never had a winning record.

Quote:And results are almost always tied to talent level on the field or court.

Almost is not always. To succeed as a coach at Rice, you need to create more exceptions to that rule than most coaches can or do. Because in order to succeed, you're going to have to win more often that you are going to have the advantage of out-athleting the other guys.
01-01-2017 11:12 PM
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