We all know that the P5 have started mandating their schools to schedule a 10 P5 game in which there will be less opportunities for G5 schools to play a P5 school in the regular season for 1 and done's.
But what about the trend of seeing more P5's schools doing a H-H series with G5 schools?

More and more P5 schools are going to a home-home route with the G5 schools and that must put a financial squeeze on some of these G5 schools who are better depended on the 1 and done for a 1.5 million check.

Is this a worrisome trend for a quite a few G5 schools? If quite a few of these schools are depended on big checks from P5 schools, will that start to create more pressure on them to keep FBS football?

I've heard many times that FCS is a money loser due the around 500k they get from FBS schools. But if a P5 school does a home and home, then they are only guaranteed that same FCS amount basically and have to come up with that same amount when the P5 plays at their stadium.
Makes me think if the P5 schools who aren't Mich, 'Bama....etc schedule more H-H series, that the lower revenue G5 schools will have to rethink their FBS status.

I am almost positive that the home and home is a win for just about every G5 that can get them. Many still have the option of a payday, but the home and home is generally better for the G5.

Also very few were getting $1.5 million guarantees.

(12-30-2016 05:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I am almost positive that the home and home is a win for just about every G5 that can get them. Many still have the option of a payday, but the home and home is generally better for the G5.

Also very few were getting $1.5 million guarantees.

Ark St is getting the following
1.65 from Nebraska next year
1.7 from Alabama in 2018
1.8 from Georgia in 2019

This is the trend for the G5/P5 1 and done's. It why many P5 schools are doing H-H series rather than pay that high amount.

Ohio is playing the smaller P5's on the road in money games.

2017 @Purdue
2018 @Virginia
2019 @Pittsburgh
2020 @Boston College
2021 @Northwestern

Playing winnable games that are close for the fans to travel to. Not too much money involved with these games.

There is a return trip by Purdue to Athens in men's basketball for Ohio giving them a road FB game. The football game next year at Purdue will be televised by ESPN or Fox.

(12-30-2016 05:30 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I am almost positive that the home and home is a win for just about every G5 that can get them. Many still have the option of a payday, but the home and home is generally better for the G5.

Also very few were getting $1.5 million guarantees.

Ark St is getting the following
1.65 from Nebraska next year
1.7 from Alabama in 2018
1.8 from Georgia in 2019

This is the trend for the G5/P5 1 and done's. It why many P5 schools are doing H-H series rather than pay that high amount.

The P5s that fill their big stadiums can afford to pay that. Problem for the G5s is that those are almost always body bag games. The more winnable games are against P5's that don't get a big payday for a home date and won't pay the big bucks for a game they could easily lose.

I do think that as more conferences eschew FCS games, there will still be demand for a one and done buy game. We'll just have to see where the market sets the price for those.

Yes. Thank you ken. As I mentioned, Very few are actually getting that much for these games.

(12-30-2016 05:30 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I am almost positive that the home and home is a win for just about every G5 that can get them. Many still have the option of a payday, but the home and home is generally better for the G5.

Also very few were getting $1.5 million guarantees.

Ark St is getting the following
1.65 from Nebraska next year
1.7 from Alabama in 2018
1.8 from Georgia in 2019

This is the trend for the G5/P5 1 and done's. It why many P5 schools are doing H-H series rather than pay that high amount.

As you suggest, the monetary impact for a G5 team that chooses to seek home/home deals instead of money games is, obviously, they don't get that money.

Look it it over two seasons: If you play one of those money games you mention this year and next, the G5 team pockets about $3.2 million. If the same team declines the money games and finds a home/home instead, that team gets no payment from the P5 team and makes only its game-day profit from the one home game. Their net loss will be $3.2 million minus the profit from that one game. Most likely the decision to take that home/home deal costs the G5 team between $1 million and $2.5 million.

Some G5 teams have enough revenue to take that hit; others don't.

(12-30-2016 06:53 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:30 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I am almost positive that the home and home is a win for just about every G5 that can get them. Many still have the option of a payday, but the home and home is generally better for the G5.

Also very few were getting $1.5 million guarantees.

Ark St is getting the following
1.65 from Nebraska next year
1.7 from Alabama in 2018
1.8 from Georgia in 2019

This is the trend for the G5/P5 1 and done's. It why many P5 schools are doing H-H series rather than pay that high amount.

As you suggest, the monetary impact for a G5 team that chooses to seek home/home deals instead of money games is, obviously, they don't get that money.

Look it it over two seasons: If you play one of those money games you mention this year and next, the G5 team pockets about $3.2 million. If the same team declines the money games and finds a home/home instead, that team gets no payment from the P5 team and makes only its game-day profit from the one home game. Their net loss will be $3.2 million minus the profit from that one game. Most likely the decision to take that home/home deal costs the G5 team between $1 million and $2.5 million.

Some G5 teams have enough revenue to take that hit; others don't.

Which is why I wonder how the bottom third will survive. I should mention that the P5 schools are the ones that are wanting more H-H series than expensive 1 and done. I think the autonomy benefits are causing more of the P5 schools to saved money by doing H-H series with G5 schools.

(12-30-2016 05:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I am almost positive that the home and home is a win for just about every G5 that can get them. Many still have the option of a payday, but the home and home is generally better for the G5.

Also very few were getting $1.5 million guarantees.

Hmmm. Let's say you're one of the lucky G5s who average 30,000 fans. Oklabama U comes to your stadium, and you sell 40,000 tickets. 10,000 extra tickets @ $25 = $250,000. That's less than you'd get from a one-and-done.

That's obviously not the whole story--if you're SMU you have boosters who will be happy and generous if they get to watch Texas Tech from their luxury box vs. surly and budget-conscious if the OOC home games are Texas Southern and Louisiana-Lafayette.

Hmm. Let's say you're terrible, and have little fan support and don't have rich megaboosters. So you usually sell 10,000 tickets and give away enough to meet FBS requirements on paper. You get a home-and-home with Oklabama State, and sell 40,000 tickets at $25 a pop. That's a $750,000 swing, very competitive with a one-and-done game.

But that's only if you get a huge attendance bump. If you're Arkansas State, and Missouri comes to town, and you still don't put 30,000 butts in seats, I think the accounting department says to do the one-and-done. (AGain, money vs pride, etc.)

Depends on which schools. The G5 schools who are the strong teams to help with SoS could get paid more than a school like Eastern Michigan. Which schools could sell more tickets? Boise State or Eastern Michigan?

If G5 teams are going to demand ridiculous payments for buy games, then I'd like to see the P5 teams start refusing to schedule G5 teams and just schedule other P5 teams home/home.

Don't reward the G5 teams with home/home games. Make them lower their price for buy games.

(12-31-2016 10:39 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  If G5 teams are going to demand ridiculous payments for buy games, then I'd like to see the P5 teams start refusing to schedule G5 teams and just schedule other P5 teams home/home.

Don't reward the G5 teams with home/home games. Make them lower their price for buy games.

I'm waiting for Minnesota to make another appearance in Athens.

Gridiron or Hardwood?

Purdue chose the hardwood.

Minnesota men's bball rarely leaves Williams Arena during the "pre-season", except if it's the Big Ten-ACC Challenge or a neutral site. Lost to FL St this year in the only true road game.

(12-30-2016 09:32 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I am almost positive that the home and home is a win for just about every G5 that can get them. Many still have the option of a payday, but the home and home is generally better for the G5.

Also very few were getting $1.5 million guarantees.

Hmmm. Let's say you're one of the lucky G5s who average 30,000 fans. Oklabama U comes to your stadium, and you sell 40,000 tickets. 10,000 extra tickets @ $25 = $250,000. That's less than you'd get from a one-and-done.

That's obviously not the whole story--if you're SMU you have boosters who will be happy and generous if they get to watch Texas Tech from their luxury box vs. surly and budget-conscious if the OOC home games are Texas Southern and Louisiana-Lafayette.

Hmm. Let's say you're terrible, and have little fan support and don't have rich megaboosters. So you usually sell 10,000 tickets and give away enough to meet FBS requirements on paper. You get a home-and-home with Oklabama State, and sell 40,000 tickets at $25 a pop. That's a $750,000 swing, very competitive with a one-and-done game.

But that's only if you get a huge attendance bump. If you're Arkansas State, and Missouri comes to town, and you still don't put 30,000 butts in seats, I think the accounting department says to do the one-and-done. (AGain, money vs pride, etc.)

Every situation is different, both on the G5 side and the P5 side. My math is a little different in your Oklahoma example. I assume that having the Sooners at home means you can charge a premium, not just for the extra tickets sold, but for all of them. So you could probably get at least $40 a ticket (compared to your base price of $25) for the extra 10K tix. That's $400K. Add $15 a ticket for the other 30K tix, and that brings you to $850K. Then add the parking and concessions from the extra tix and you are in the $1 million range.

The problem comes on the other side. Oklahoma loses a home game where they would probably have sold 85K tickets at $60 a pop. They give up over $5 million. Unless the other school's AD is your brother in-law (and probably even if he is), you probably don't want to do that.

If it's only the P5s that don't draw big crowds at home who will give a return game, chances are they won't be good enough to either increase attendance for the G5 hosts or allow them to charge a premium price.

I really don't see P5/G5 home and homes increasing all that much.

(12-31-2016 11:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 09:32 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:21 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I am almost positive that the home and home is a win for just about every G5 that can get them. Many still have the option of a payday, but the home and home is generally better for the G5.

Also very few were getting $1.5 million guarantees.

Hmmm. Let's say you're one of the lucky G5s who average 30,000 fans. Oklabama U comes to your stadium, and you sell 40,000 tickets. 10,000 extra tickets @ $25 = $250,000. That's less than you'd get from a one-and-done.

That's obviously not the whole story--if you're SMU you have boosters who will be happy and generous if they get to watch Texas Tech from their luxury box vs. surly and budget-conscious if the OOC home games are Texas Southern and Louisiana-Lafayette.

Hmm. Let's say you're terrible, and have little fan support and don't have rich megaboosters. So you usually sell 10,000 tickets and give away enough to meet FBS requirements on paper. You get a home-and-home with Oklabama State, and sell 40,000 tickets at $25 a pop. That's a $750,000 swing, very competitive with a one-and-done game.

But that's only if you get a huge attendance bump. If you're Arkansas State, and Missouri comes to town, and you still don't put 30,000 butts in seats, I think the accounting department says to do the one-and-done. (AGain, money vs pride, etc.)

Every situation is different, both on the G5 side and the P5 side. My math is a little different in your Oklahoma example. I assume that having the Sooners at home means you can charge a premium, not just for the extra tickets sold, but for all of them. So you could probably get at least $40 a ticket (compared to your base price of $25) for the extra 10K tix. That's $400K. Add $15 a ticket for the other 30K tix, and that brings you to $850K. Then add the parking and concessions from the extra tix and you are in the $1 million range.

The problem comes on the other side. Oklahoma loses a home game where they would probably have sold 85K tickets at $60 a pop. They give up over $5 million. Unless the other school's AD is your brother in-law (and probably even if he is), you probably don't want to do that.

If it's only the P5s that don't draw big crowds at home who will give a return game, chances are they won't be good enough to either increase attendance for the G5 hosts or allow them to charge a premium price.

I really don't see P5/G5 home and homes increasing all that much.

This bigger issue there is how many G5 schools have stadiums that are more than 30K?
Sure its nice to get a P5 to come and play in your stadium but you also have to consider that the G5 fanbase may not be able to sell the tickets at a greatly increase cost compared to other games.
But as I stated above the trend seems to that the lower upper tier on down is going to schedule more 1-1's vs 1-done due to the cost of the 1 and done. The big P5's will still do 1 and done but that will only allow about 10 or so G5 schools to collect those checks.

(12-31-2016 10:39 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  If G5 teams are going to demand ridiculous payments for buy games, then I'd like to see the P5 teams start refusing to schedule G5 teams and just schedule other P5 teams home/home.

Don't reward the G5 teams with home/home games. Make them lower their price for buy games.

Says the fan of a school that hosted Miami for their half of the H-H but bought out our half in 2019 to be another home game for you...

Intercollegiate athletics finance is far more than tickets sold for a single game.

When Mizzou came to AState in 2015, we priced the game like an SEC team. You could actually buy an upper deck or end zone general admission season ticket for roughly the price of a lower level between the 35's single game ticket for Mizzou.

AState had an increase in season tickets of about 20%. Each of those new season ticket holders then received a phone call. They were offered a chance to join the Red Wolf Foundation and get preferred parking for all the games.

In 2016 most of those new season ticket holders renewed, most of those new foundation members renewed.

For Arkansas State it is long-tail marketing.

None of those new buyers are likely to walk away in 2017 with Miami coming in and likely a pre-season Top 25. Odds are if the pre-season polls like Miami a great deal, we set a new season ticket record.

MWC Tex posted the prices AState is getting for games. That's a benefit of the CFP. If you think you are going to be a contender you want games that you should win but won't hurt your perception. While AState ain't Houston or Boise State the committee isn't going to look at that game and say a school was loading up on patsies by playing the Red Wolves with six straight winning seasons and at least a share of the Sun Belt in five of those seasons.

For a team thinking contender, we are a good value.

That means for an AD at a place like Miami or Iowa State or Mizzou playing a game worth $1.8 million for only $300,000 and a returned check for $300,000 for traveling to AState looks like a good deal.

One of the issues facing many P5 schools right now is fans are looking at 7 and 8 game home slates and voting with their wallet to say that they don't think those extra games are worth their money. About 10 years ago I was playing golf with two members of the Orange Bowl committee. They told me most of the committee members sell or giveaway a number of tickets every year they didn't want games where they couldn't resell their tickets and at least get the face value and didn't want games where their customers didn't want the tickets. Friend is on the I Bowl committee, he hates any match-up where his office phone isn't ringing after the game announcement from customers wanting his giveaway tickets.

By the same measure. A friend is involved with a company that owns a large suite at Razorback Stadium and he is responsible for making sure the suite is filled for one game each year. Believe me, he ain't happy if he is struggling to fill his game because the CEO checks the guest list.

Look at the NFL, they play 8 home games have much larger fan bases in closer proximity to the stadium and you don't see a vast number of games where there aren't visible empty seats.

It's easier to sell six games instead of seven and easier to sell seven than eight. It is easier to get money out of restaurant and hotel owners if they are able to fill up seven weekends instead of eight, hotel owners would rather sell out six weekends of two-night minimum than have sluggish sales force them to discount and abandon two-night minimum.

Bama has settled into a comfortable 7 home game slate, they are a big enough deal that they can play in Dallas, Atlanta, Orlando to replace that possible 8th home game with a high profile single-shot game but the market can only take a few of those. That's not a viable option for many schools even in Power Conferences.

arkstate's long post can be quickly summarized as trying to hoodwink P5 AD's into thinking that it's actually just fine if you only have six home games, therefore you should schedule home/home with G5 teams.

Answer: No.

I've said it for a long time, the only way to even move towards parity is for P5 teams to travel to G5 locations.

Even when the G5 team loses the game they've come out way ahead in the long run.

(12-31-2016 01:44 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  arkstate's long post can be quickly summarized as trying to hoodwink P5 AD's into thinking that it's actually just fine if you only have six home games, therefore you should schedule home/home with G5 teams.

Answer: No.

Simple truth in college athletics finance.

It is better to have 5,000 fewer seats than you need than 5,000 too many.

When supply outstrips demand fans feel more pressure to buy a season ticket to see the games they actually desire to watch. They can be forced to donate to have the right to buy a ticket. I don't know if it is still the case but a mid-major hoops example from a few years ago. Gonzaga was charging people $450 a year just to be on the season ticket waiting list. When Memphis played at Mid-South Coliseum they had a long waiting list for tickets. They moved to the Pyramid and no longer had a waiting list. When their hoops tanked people gave up tickets to such a degree they averaged less than when they were at Mid-South. That was unthinkable before because if you got mad and quit, you might never get back in. Fortunately for the Tigers, basketball got better.

Right now we are seeing more P5 schools having excess capacity issues in part because the supply of people willing to attend 7 games isn't that high.

You can make more money by either reducing capacity of the stadium so demand equals or exceeds demand or you can reduce the supply of games. Basic economics.

Alabama has 101,000 seats. They also constrain the supply of home games to 7.