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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #1
Separation from the NCAA
What would this look like if the Power conferences decided to split and form a new association?

Obviously, the SEC, ACC, B1G, and PAC would be involved. Who else?

You probably need a few leagues like the Big East, the A10, and maybe a couple of others to make the basketball season worthwhile. The other sports wouldn't be dramatically affected although there should be opportunity to actually generate some decent money from TV sports like baseball and softball...maybe even hockey although most of the hockey programs are not affiliated with the top overall leagues.

The key for basketball would be to pare down the tournament so that the value of the regular season is enhanced. That will maximize revenue. The current format for the basketball tournament is great when it comes to a singular event. It's a heck of a lot of fun, but a more valuable regular season would be more fun and draw more eyeballs. I suggest no more than 20 slots. A postseason that demands excellence in order to enter thereby demands excellence on the part of any desiring competitor. I think one of the reasons some of the basketball programs across the country are of such mediocre quality is because you don't have to be excellent to get into the postseason. Time to flip the script.

Obviously though, you could create other postseason events/tournaments for deserving teams. Cynically...another way to maximize revenue much like the bowl season for football.

Football wise, looks like we'd have to go to a system where Power leagues essentially played each other exclusively. Although I suppose leagues like the MWC, AAC, and whatever is left of the Big 12 might make the jump too.

Structurally? You'll need all the member schools to chip in for the cost of running the thing. I suggest a taxation system where schools submit a flat percentage of their athletic revenue towards administration. Either that or a singular flat amount per member school.

Anything I'm missing?
12-27-2016 09:37 AM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #2
Separation from the NCAA
If you reduce the size of March Madness then you reduce its value. One reason why it is worth so much is for the volume of games & the story lines of Cinderella. I think that you would have to keep it at at least 32. With a reduction in the number of teams would create more marquee games during the regular season increasing its value.

I don't see a separation happening. It's difficult enough getting teams in a conference to agree on something, it would be nearly impossible to get 60-100 to come to a consensus on a new governing body. There would be to many factions wanting different things. There would be a big pushback from all the schools being left behind, even from the lower divisions. It would make more sense to me to make a higher division for football only. Greater restrictions can be placed on the highest division in basketball & reduce the size. The threat of separation will be a great bargaining chip to bring about much needed reform for D1 sports in the NCAA.
12-27-2016 10:10 AM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-27-2016 10:10 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  If you reduce the size of March Madness then you reduce its value. One reason why it is worth so much is for the volume of games & the story lines of Cinderella. I think that you would have to keep it at at least 32. With a reduction in the number of teams would create more marquee games during the regular season increasing its value.

I don't see a separation happening. It's difficult enough getting teams in a conference to agree on something, it would be nearly impossible to get 60-100 to come to a consensus on a new governing body. There would be to many factions wanting different things. There would be a big pushback from all the schools being left behind, even from the lower divisions. It would make more sense to me to make a higher division for football only. Greater restrictions can be placed on the highest division in basketball & reduce the size. The threat of separation will be a great bargaining chip to bring about much needed reform for D1 sports in the NCAA.

If you reduce the size of March madness then basketball season tickets become meaningful again! Those who participate earn a lot more than they do now. And the income disparity for football is already creating the divide that will bring the same to basketball. Auburn just beat UConn on their home court, with a star player from Connecticut on Auburn's team. Six years ago would that have happened?

The ACC and Big 10 are only going to get stronger in hoops while the Georgetown's, and Connecticut's and St. John's of the world get weaker. I'd argue that once the football world is set, any cusp basketball only schools would be easier to absorb into the various P conferences if that is what was needed. But by then I don't think it will be necessary.
12-27-2016 11:03 AM
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BePcr07 Offline
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RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-27-2016 09:37 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  What would this look like if the Power conferences decided to split and form a new association?

Obviously, the SEC, ACC, B1G, and PAC would be involved. Who else?

You probably need a few leagues like the Big East, the A10, and maybe a couple of others to make the basketball season worthwhile. The other sports wouldn't be dramatically affected although there should be opportunity to actually generate some decent money from TV sports like baseball and softball...maybe even hockey although most of the hockey programs are not affiliated with the top overall leagues.

The key for basketball would be to pare down the tournament so that the value of the regular season is enhanced. That will maximize revenue. The current format for the basketball tournament is great when it comes to a singular event. It's a heck of a lot of fun, but a more valuable regular season would be more fun and draw more eyeballs. I suggest no more than 20 slots. A postseason that demands excellence in order to enter thereby demands excellence on the part of any desiring competitor. I think one of the reasons some of the basketball programs across the country are of such mediocre quality is because you don't have to be excellent to get into the postseason. Time to flip the script.

Obviously though, you could create other postseason events/tournaments for deserving teams. Cynically...another way to maximize revenue much like the bowl season for football.

Football wise, looks like we'd have to go to a system where Power leagues essentially played each other exclusively. Although I suppose leagues like the MWC, AAC, and whatever is left of the Big 12 might make the jump too.

Structurally? You'll need all the member schools to chip in for the cost of running the thing. I suggest a taxation system where schools submit a flat percentage of their athletic revenue towards administration. Either that or a singular flat amount per member school.

Anything I'm missing?

My guess would be the SEC, B1G, ACC, PAC, ND, BYU, all XII teams, most AAC teams, some MWC teams, maybe Army, and possibly a couple others. I would also think the Big East, most A-10 teams, and a few others like Gonzaga and St. Mary's. In all, probably like 80-90 football programs and 100-120 basketball programs.
12-27-2016 01:24 PM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Separation from the NCAA
(12-27-2016 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 10:10 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  If you reduce the size of March Madness then you reduce its value. One reason why it is worth so much is for the volume of games & the story lines of Cinderella. I think that you would have to keep it at at least 32. With a reduction in the number of teams would create more marquee games during the regular season increasing its value.

I don't see a separation happening. It's difficult enough getting teams in a conference to agree on something, it would be nearly impossible to get 60-100 to come to a consensus on a new governing body. There would be to many factions wanting different things. There would be a big pushback from all the schools being left behind, even from the lower divisions. It would make more sense to me to make a higher division for football only. Greater restrictions can be placed on the highest division in basketball & reduce the size. The threat of separation will be a great bargaining chip to bring about much needed reform for D1 sports in the NCAA.

If you reduce the size of March madness then basketball season tickets become meaningful again! Those who participate earn a lot more than they do now. And the income disparity for football is already creating the divide that will bring the same to basketball. Auburn just beat UConn on their home court, with a star player from Connecticut on Auburn's team. Six years ago would that have happened?

The ACC and Big 10 are only going to get stronger in hoops while the Georgetown's, and Connecticut's and St. John's of the world get weaker. I'd argue that once the football world is set, any cusp basketball only schools would be easier to absorb into the various P conferences if that is what was needed. But by then I don't think it will be necessary.

By reducing it to 32 you are eliminating half the field but only 2 days worth of games, not counting the play ins. With the conference tournament champs getting an automatic bid the regular season will never be entirely meaningful. Reducing the number of the field will only increase the meaning of the conference tournaments.

I think Villanova has shown that they & the Georgetown's will likely stay relevant in basketball. There's a lot of parity in basketball with the small teams size. AAU basketball has really changed the game, & not all for the best. The one & done rule would have a far greater effect as well with fewer teams.
12-27-2016 02:01 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-27-2016 01:24 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 09:37 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  What would this look like if the Power conferences decided to split and form a new association?

Obviously, the SEC, ACC, B1G, and PAC would be involved. Who else?

You probably need a few leagues like the Big East, the A10, and maybe a couple of others to make the basketball season worthwhile. The other sports wouldn't be dramatically affected although there should be opportunity to actually generate some decent money from TV sports like baseball and softball...maybe even hockey although most of the hockey programs are not affiliated with the top overall leagues.

The key for basketball would be to pare down the tournament so that the value of the regular season is enhanced. That will maximize revenue. The current format for the basketball tournament is great when it comes to a singular event. It's a heck of a lot of fun, but a more valuable regular season would be more fun and draw more eyeballs. I suggest no more than 20 slots. A postseason that demands excellence in order to enter thereby demands excellence on the part of any desiring competitor. I think one of the reasons some of the basketball programs across the country are of such mediocre quality is because you don't have to be excellent to get into the postseason. Time to flip the script.

Obviously though, you could create other postseason events/tournaments for deserving teams. Cynically...another way to maximize revenue much like the bowl season for football.

Football wise, looks like we'd have to go to a system where Power leagues essentially played each other exclusively. Although I suppose leagues like the MWC, AAC, and whatever is left of the Big 12 might make the jump too.

Structurally? You'll need all the member schools to chip in for the cost of running the thing. I suggest a taxation system where schools submit a flat percentage of their athletic revenue towards administration. Either that or a singular flat amount per member school.

Anything I'm missing?

My guess would be the SEC, B1G, ACC, PAC, ND, BYU, all XII teams, most AAC teams, some MWC teams, maybe Army, and possibly a couple others. I would also think the Big East, most A-10 teams, and a few others like Gonzaga and St. Mary's. In all, probably like 80-90 football programs and 100-120 basketball programs.

Yeah, we'd need a Western/Midwestern based league for schools like St. Mary's, Gonzaga, Wichita State, and the like. There's some pretty good college baseball on the West Coast too. Cal State Fullerton and Pepperdine come to mind.
12-27-2016 04:03 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-27-2016 02:01 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 10:10 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  If you reduce the size of March Madness then you reduce its value. One reason why it is worth so much is for the volume of games & the story lines of Cinderella. I think that you would have to keep it at at least 32. With a reduction in the number of teams would create more marquee games during the regular season increasing its value.

I don't see a separation happening. It's difficult enough getting teams in a conference to agree on something, it would be nearly impossible to get 60-100 to come to a consensus on a new governing body. There would be to many factions wanting different things. There would be a big pushback from all the schools being left behind, even from the lower divisions. It would make more sense to me to make a higher division for football only. Greater restrictions can be placed on the highest division in basketball & reduce the size. The threat of separation will be a great bargaining chip to bring about much needed reform for D1 sports in the NCAA.

If you reduce the size of March madness then basketball season tickets become meaningful again! Those who participate earn a lot more than they do now. And the income disparity for football is already creating the divide that will bring the same to basketball. Auburn just beat UConn on their home court, with a star player from Connecticut on Auburn's team. Six years ago would that have happened?

The ACC and Big 10 are only going to get stronger in hoops while the Georgetown's, and Connecticut's and St. John's of the world get weaker. I'd argue that once the football world is set, any cusp basketball only schools would be easier to absorb into the various P conferences if that is what was needed. But by then I don't think it will be necessary.

By reducing it to 32 you are eliminating half the field but only 2 days worth of games, not counting the play ins. With the conference tournament champs getting an automatic bid the regular season will never be entirely meaningful. Reducing the number of the field will only increase the meaning of the conference tournaments.

I think Villanova has shown that they & the Georgetown's will likely stay relevant in basketball. There's a lot of parity in basketball with the small teams size. AAU basketball has really changed the game, & not all for the best. The one & done rule would have a far greater effect as well with fewer teams.

You are right that the tournament wouldn't be worth as much, but I don't think it would be a significant dip because the tournament itself would still have immense importance to the sport. Remember that as it stands, nearly all the value of the sport is in the tournament. If you can shift importance back to the regular season then you can get a great deal of value out of both. One of the primary reasons for the value of the college football season is the regular season.

I'd try 20 first and then consider growing from there, but I don't think there's a need to go to 32 immediately.

Let's say you had automatic bids from these leagues...ACC, SEC, B1G, PAC, Big East, AAC, MWC, A10, MVC, and a league on the West Coast. That's 10. Take 10 at-large teams and you've still got some Cinderella stories, but you've cancelled out all the schools that have no real shot at advancing. Plus, being how hard it is to get in...all of a sudden the conference tournaments take on a great deal of extra importance.
12-27-2016 04:17 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-27-2016 10:10 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  If you reduce the size of March Madness then you reduce its value. One reason why it is worth so much is for the volume of games & the story lines of Cinderella. I think that you would have to keep it at at least 32. With a reduction in the number of teams would create more marquee games during the regular season increasing its value.

Have you seen the arenas and and viewership numbers for those Thursday and Friday games? I also think the Cinderella aspect is vastly overplayed (and no, 'Nova is not some plucky underdog example). The Tournament's value IMO is that it is a month long single elimination competition not that dissimilar than the Olympics. The heavyweights are few and well known and requires very little prior investment of time.

As for separation, I just don't see it happening as the NCAA provides useful legal cover many the P5 schools. Keep in mind that we are shifting into an era were the entire postsecondary system is under strain financially. Athletics are not only a valuable revenue stream but also free advertisement. Separation threatens the solvency of too many institutions IMO to be viable option. The easier route is simply to make playing too expensive and drive option competition out of the market.
12-28-2016 04:27 AM
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AllTideUp Offline
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RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 04:27 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  As for separation, I just don't see it happening as the NCAA provides useful legal cover many the P5 schools. Keep in mind that we are shifting into an era were the entire postsecondary system is under strain financially. Athletics are not only a valuable revenue stream but also free advertisement. Separation threatens the solvency of too many institutions IMO to be viable option. The easier route is simply to make playing too expensive and drive option competition out of the market.

I used to think along those lines, but consider that the NCAA is an institution created by its member schools. In fact, not all schools that sponsor sports are a part of it. There's the NAIA and the NJCAA for junior colleges.

Would it really be an antitrust violation for some of these schools to simply withdraw and form their own organization? The nature of the organization would be the same as far as protection from taxation, but it's only the membership that would be different. As long as there was a process by which non-member schools could apply and enter then I don't see an issue.
12-28-2016 05:23 AM
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XLance Offline
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RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 05:23 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 04:27 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  As for separation, I just don't see it happening as the NCAA provides useful legal cover many the P5 schools. Keep in mind that we are shifting into an era were the entire postsecondary system is under strain financially. Athletics are not only a valuable revenue stream but also free advertisement. Separation threatens the solvency of too many institutions IMO to be viable option. The easier route is simply to make playing too expensive and drive option competition out of the market.

I used to think along those lines, but consider that the NCAA is an institution created by its member schools. In fact, not all schools that sponsor sports are a part of it. There's the NAIA and the NJCAA for junior colleges.

Would it really be an antitrust violation for some of these schools to simply withdraw and form their own organization? The nature of the organization would be the same as far as protection from taxation, but it's only the membership that would be different. As long as there was a process by which non-member schools could apply and enter then I don't see an issue.



When administrators of organizations as well as those of governments start making their own rules instead of upholding the ones they are sworn to enforce, change will come.


Inside Carolina
The NCAA’s Protocol Problem with UNC Investigation
Greg Barnes
GREG BARNES
Thursday at 8:35 AM
NCAA's inability to adhere to its own bylaws has been a leading point of contention throughout UNC's investigation.

CHAPEL HILL, N.C. – On Aug. 20, 2015, three months after the NCAA issued its first notice of allegations to the University of North Carolina, the organization’s vice president of enforcement, Jon Duncan, sat in a meeting with both NCAA and UNC officials and expounded on a theory known as the totality of the circumstances.
Duncan offered the theory, which is a method of analysis to make decisions based on a collection of data rather than a strict interpretation of specific rules, during a discussion regarding the enforcement staff’s justification for Allegation 1(a), which asserted that ASPSA counselors provided impermissible benefits in the form of special arrangements for student-athletes with AFAM faculty and staff. If one student-athlete was involved in all six types of conduct alleged in 1(a), a violation would be substantiated.

It’s an interesting theory, albeit not one with any footing in the NCAA’s bylaws and constitution. Duncan’s theory, along with an accompanying analysis that ultimately proved no student-athlete was involved in four or more of the six types of conduct, was offered during a critical juncture of the joint investigation into UNC’s academic irregularities case. The NCAA had already alleged UNC had provided impermissible benefits to student-athletes that were not generally available to the student body, although the enforcement staff was having trouble applying its own bylaws to that allegation.
One possible alternative was Duncan’s proposed theory.
In a batch of correspondence between the NCAA and the university released in October, Rick Evrard, UNC’s outside counsel, wrote that “there is no known basis or precedent for the vice president of enforcement or the enforcement staff to establish this type of theory and threshold for the purpose of applying it to conduct permitted by NCAA rules in order to justify making a charge that violations of NCAA bylaws have occurred.”
During the 11 months between UNC’s initial notice of allegations and its amended notice of allegations received in April 2016, the institution’s compliance staff and its lawyers consistently argued that none of the conduct cited in the impermissible benefits allegation had “ever been identified in a precedent or other authoritative material as being beyond the scope” of NCAA bylaws currently in place. Academic counseling and tutoring services are required to be made available to all student-athletes in accordance with Bylaw 16.3.1.1, and yet it was those counseling services the NCAA had decided to base its impermissible benefits charge upon, despite similar situations at Michigan (2004-07) and Auburn (2005-06) that failed to prompt any NCAA interest of note.
The documents highlight several other procedural errors committed by the enforcement staff. For example, director of enforcement Tom Hosty acknowledged that while a small sample of emails in 2011 did not demonstrate an extra-benefit violation, a large volume of such data resulted in the impermissible benefits charge. UNC countered by noting there is no authority or precedent in place to transform a permissible benefit into an impermissible benefit by sheer volume.
Without applicable bylaws available to base its allegation, the NCAA enforcement staff was forced to remove the impermissible benefits charge from the amended notice of allegations. That lengthy process of properly applying rules and regulations to UNC’s case has come undone in the second amended notice of allegations released on Thursday.
Following orders from the Committee on Infractions, the NCAA enforcement staff has reinstalled the impermissible benefits charge, albeit with stronger language and a different basis for its allegation: the Wainstein report.

UNC Releases Second ANOA

CHAPEL HILL, N.C. -- The NCAA's second amended notice of allegations to UNC, which reverts back to much of the original NOA issued in May 2015, was released to the public on…


by Staff Report
Inside CarolinaThursday at 12:04 PM
UNC and the enforcement staff, according to the released correspondence, had previously agreed the unrecorded and unverified interviews conducted during the Wainstein investigation occurred outside of NCAA investigative bylaws and therefore were not eligible for inclusion. That is no longer the case, as the interviews with former AFAM administrative assistant Deborah Crowder and former AFAM department head Julius Nyang’oro are the lynchpin of the new impermissible benefits allegation.
The NCAA’s inability to adhere to its own bylaws extend beyond the details involved with determining potential violations, the documents show. NCAA bylaws dictate the enforcement staff make all factual information pertinent to the case available to the institution. However, in July 2015, two months after the initial notice of allegations was released, UNC and its counsel visited the NCAA’s offices in Indianapolis to review the enforcement staff’s files and discovered an email thread that had not been made available to the institution.
In the emails that dated back to February 2013, investigators sought an interpretation from members of the NCAA’s Academic and Membership Affairs (AMA) staff regarding potential violations that had not been charged. AMA personnel determined that no additional violations had occurred. Despite that breakdown in protocol, the NCAA refused interview requests by UNC of the email thread’s participants to determine the extent of the staff’s prior knowledge.
"I have seen recently that the NCAA has chased after some other schools and went outside of their own process, and that hasn’t worked out very well," UNC athletic director Bubba Cunningham said during a teleconference call on Thursday. "I don’t want them to do that again. Just as they’re trying to hold us accountable to the membership, it’s our responsibility to hold them accountable to the membership as well. We all have to live by the bylaws and constitution that is part of this association.”
UNC’s resolve in holding the NCAA to the bylaws its own membership constructed will potentially be a determining factor in the outcome of this meandering case.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2016 07:53 AM by XLance.)
12-28-2016 06:05 AM
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murrdcu Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-27-2016 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 10:10 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  If you reduce the size of March Madness then you reduce its value. One reason why it is worth so much is for the volume of games & the story lines of Cinderella. I think that you would have to keep it at at least 32. With a reduction in the number of teams would create more marquee games during the regular season increasing its value.

I don't see a separation happening. It's difficult enough getting teams in a conference to agree on something, it would be nearly impossible to get 60-100 to come to a consensus on a new governing body. There would be to many factions wanting different things. There would be a big pushback from all the schools being left behind, even from the lower divisions. It would make more sense to me to make a higher division for football only. Greater restrictions can be placed on the highest division in basketball & reduce the size. The threat of separation will be a great bargaining chip to bring about much needed reform for D1 sports in the NCAA.

If you reduce the size of March madness then basketball season tickets become meaningful again! Those who participate earn a lot more than they do now. And the income disparity for football is already creating the divide that will bring the same to basketball. Auburn just beat UConn on their home court, with a star player from Connecticut on Auburn's team. Six years ago would that have happened?

The ACC and Big 10 are only going to get stronger in hoops while the Georgetown's, and Connecticut's and St. John's of the world get weaker. I'd argue that once the football world is set, any cusp basketball only schools would be easier to absorb into the various P conferences if that is what was needed. But by then I don't think it will be necessary.

I don't see how reducing number of march madness teams increases the value of the regular season

The selection committee choses the best teams to fill out the bracket after the automatic qualifyers are added. How the teams schedule their ooc games is up to them to decide what best suits their needs.

Look, the SEC only got three teams in last year and probably only two deserved to. E in it. You still need to be a quality team to get in there.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2016 09:30 AM by murrdcu.)
12-28-2016 09:29 AM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 09:29 AM)murrdcu Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 10:10 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  If you reduce the size of March Madness then you reduce its value. One reason why it is worth so much is for the volume of games & the story lines of Cinderella. I think that you would have to keep it at at least 32. With a reduction in the number of teams would create more marquee games during the regular season increasing its value.

I don't see a separation happening. It's difficult enough getting teams in a conference to agree on something, it would be nearly impossible to get 60-100 to come to a consensus on a new governing body. There would be to many factions wanting different things. There would be a big pushback from all the schools being left behind, even from the lower divisions. It would make more sense to me to make a higher division for football only. Greater restrictions can be placed on the highest division in basketball & reduce the size. The threat of separation will be a great bargaining chip to bring about much needed reform for D1 sports in the NCAA.

If you reduce the size of March madness then basketball season tickets become meaningful again! Those who participate earn a lot more than they do now. And the income disparity for football is already creating the divide that will bring the same to basketball. Auburn just beat UConn on their home court, with a star player from Connecticut on Auburn's team. Six years ago would that have happened?

The ACC and Big 10 are only going to get stronger in hoops while the Georgetown's, and Connecticut's and St. John's of the world get weaker. I'd argue that once the football world is set, any cusp basketball only schools would be easier to absorb into the various P conferences if that is what was needed. But by then I don't think it will be necessary.

I don't see how reducing number of march madness teams increases the value of the regular season

The selection committee choses the best teams to fill out the bracket after the automatic qualifyers are added. How the teams schedule their ooc games is up to them to decide what best suits their needs.

Look, the SEC only got three teams in last year and probably only two deserved to. E in it. You still need to be a quality team to get in there.

The point is nobody gives a hoot about the regular season anymore. The conference season simply determines the automatic qualifier and then......drum roll please.....a damn committee selects entrants that range from the best at large to absolute stinkers who manage to win their conference tourney. It's bloated, insignificant, and determines a winner by default. Hardly ever do the seasons' best teams manage to compete at the end. You reduce the season to the school that can make a 5 game run.

I don't buy your way of thinking at all. Basketball ratings are sagging rather dramatically. Sure they turn in for the upsets in the first two rounds of the tourney, then check out until the final four. Whoopee! It stinks! The overall decline of the sport says it stinks! The demand for regular season tickets says it stinks! But then we have the tourney lovers who bury their heads in the sand and defend irrationally a system that has helped to destroy interest in the sport except for 4 weekends of the year. But, it is true they don't teach critical thinking or logic in school any longer since it is biased to Euro-centric culture.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2016 09:40 AM by JRsec.)
12-28-2016 09:37 AM
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Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 09:37 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 09:29 AM)murrdcu Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-27-2016 10:10 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  If you reduce the size of March Madness then you reduce its value. One reason why it is worth so much is for the volume of games & the story lines of Cinderella. I think that you would have to keep it at at least 32. With a reduction in the number of teams would create more marquee games during the regular season increasing its value.

I don't see a separation happening. It's difficult enough getting teams in a conference to agree on something, it would be nearly impossible to get 60-100 to come to a consensus on a new governing body. There would be to many factions wanting different things. There would be a big pushback from all the schools being left behind, even from the lower divisions. It would make more sense to me to make a higher division for football only. Greater restrictions can be placed on the highest division in basketball & reduce the size. The threat of separation will be a great bargaining chip to bring about much needed reform for D1 sports in the NCAA.

If you reduce the size of March madness then basketball season tickets become meaningful again! Those who participate earn a lot more than they do now. And the income disparity for football is already creating the divide that will bring the same to basketball. Auburn just beat UConn on their home court, with a star player from Connecticut on Auburn's team. Six years ago would that have happened?

The ACC and Big 10 are only going to get stronger in hoops while the Georgetown's, and Connecticut's and St. John's of the world get weaker. I'd argue that once the football world is set, any cusp basketball only schools would be easier to absorb into the various P conferences if that is what was needed. But by then I don't think it will be necessary.

I don't see how reducing number of march madness teams increases the value of the regular season

The selection committee choses the best teams to fill out the bracket after the automatic qualifyers are added. How the teams schedule their ooc games is up to them to decide what best suits their needs.

Look, the SEC only got three teams in last year and probably only two deserved to. E in it. You still need to be a quality team to get in there.

The point is nobody gives a hoot about the regular season anymore. The conference season simply determines the automatic qualifier and then......drum roll please.....a damn committee selects entrants that range from the best at large to absolute stinkers who manage to win their conference tourney. It's bloated, insignificant, and determines a winner by default. Hardly ever do the seasons' best teams manage to compete at the end. You reduce the season to the school that can make a 5 game run.

I don't buy your way of thinking at all. Basketball ratings are sagging rather dramatically. Sure they turn in for the upsets in the first two rounds of the tourney, then check out until the final four. Whoopee! It stinks! The overall decline of the sport says it stinks! The demand for regular season tickets says it stinks! But then we have the tourney lovers who bury their heads in the sand and defend irrationally a system that has helped to destroy interest in the sport except for 4 weekends of the year. But, it is true they don't teach critical thinking or logic in school any longer since it is biased to Euro-centric culture.

Separation & reducing the number of teams competing at the highest level will not only add meaning to the regular season but make the tournament better as well. The "stinkers" will not only be removed from the regular season but the tournament as well. Starting the tourney with 32 teams means that 1 v 8 & 2 v7 are your most lopsided matchups, those are usually good games. You would have >200 teams playing for about 16 at large bids & about half of them could get it. That adds value to the regular season & makes the tourney exciting.

Using last years tournament, here are some examples of what the first round could look like with 32 teams:
1 Kansas v UCONN, 4 Kentucky v 5 Indiana, 1 North Carolina v 8 USC, 3 WV v 6 ND. Maybe even use the 8 v 9 games as the play ins.
12-28-2016 11:05 AM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 11:05 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Separation & reducing the number of teams competing at the highest level will not only add meaning to the regular season but make the tournament better as well. The "stinkers" will not only be removed from the regular season but the tournament as well. Starting the tourney with 32 teams means that 1 v 8 & 2 v7 are your most lopsided matchups, those are usually good games. You would have >200 teams playing for about 16 at large bids & about half of them could get it. That adds value to the regular season & makes the tourney exciting.

Using last years tournament, here are some examples of what the first round could look like with 32 teams:
1 Kansas v UCONN, 4 Kentucky v 5 Indiana, 1 North Carolina v 8 USC, 3 WV v 6 ND. Maybe even use the 8 v 9 games as the play ins.

The issue I have with 32 is it's still quite a large percentage of the available pool. Remember that a lot of the leagues probably aren't coming along. I'd like to stick with a lower number so that the value of regular season games become inherent rather than dependent upon its relevance to the postseason resume.

You'd still have a few play-in games and then the quality teams really take over. I think it would be a good event.
12-28-2016 12:51 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 12:51 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 11:05 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Separation & reducing the number of teams competing at the highest level will not only add meaning to the regular season but make the tournament better as well. The "stinkers" will not only be removed from the regular season but the tournament as well. Starting the tourney with 32 teams means that 1 v 8 & 2 v7 are your most lopsided matchups, those are usually good games. You would have >200 teams playing for about 16 at large bids & about half of them could get it. That adds value to the regular season & makes the tourney exciting.

Using last years tournament, here are some examples of what the first round could look like with 32 teams:
1 Kansas v UCONN, 4 Kentucky v 5 Indiana, 1 North Carolina v 8 USC, 3 WV v 6 ND. Maybe even use the 8 v 9 games as the play ins.

The issue I have with 32 is it's still quite a large percentage of the available pool. Remember that a lot of the leagues probably aren't coming along. I'd like to stick with a lower number so that the value of regular season games become inherent rather than dependent upon its relevance to the postseason resume.

You'd still have a few play-in games and then the quality teams really take over. I think it would be a good event.

I'd like to see the tournament restrict the number of conference entrants to 3 or 4. No conference needs 7 schools in the mix. I like cutting it to 32 and putting a 3 team cap per conference on the field.
12-28-2016 02:56 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 02:56 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 12:51 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 11:05 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Separation & reducing the number of teams competing at the highest level will not only add meaning to the regular season but make the tournament better as well. The "stinkers" will not only be removed from the regular season but the tournament as well. Starting the tourney with 32 teams means that 1 v 8 & 2 v7 are your most lopsided matchups, those are usually good games. You would have >200 teams playing for about 16 at large bids & about half of them could get it. That adds value to the regular season & makes the tourney exciting.

Using last years tournament, here are some examples of what the first round could look like with 32 teams:
1 Kansas v UCONN, 4 Kentucky v 5 Indiana, 1 North Carolina v 8 USC, 3 WV v 6 ND. Maybe even use the 8 v 9 games as the play ins.

The issue I have with 32 is it's still quite a large percentage of the available pool. Remember that a lot of the leagues probably aren't coming along. I'd like to stick with a lower number so that the value of regular season games become inherent rather than dependent upon its relevance to the postseason resume.

You'd still have a few play-in games and then the quality teams really take over. I think it would be a good event.

I'd like to see the tournament restrict the number of conference entrants to 3 or 4. No conference needs 7 schools in the mix. I like cutting it to 32 and putting a 3 team cap per conference on the field.

Since Oklahoma and Georgia liberated college football dollars from the NCAA, the basketball tournament has become the largest source of income for the entire NCAA.
As long as the basketball tournament pays the NCAA's overhead, the tournament will never shrink the number of participants.
Would the directors of the NCAA ruin a sport just so they could continue collecting their lofty salaries? Why not, they can't even follow their own rules. Greed, is killing off sports at all levels.
12-28-2016 04:17 PM
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Post: #17
RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 04:17 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 02:56 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 12:51 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 11:05 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Separation & reducing the number of teams competing at the highest level will not only add meaning to the regular season but make the tournament better as well. The "stinkers" will not only be removed from the regular season but the tournament as well. Starting the tourney with 32 teams means that 1 v 8 & 2 v7 are your most lopsided matchups, those are usually good games. You would have >200 teams playing for about 16 at large bids & about half of them could get it. That adds value to the regular season & makes the tourney exciting.

Using last years tournament, here are some examples of what the first round could look like with 32 teams:
1 Kansas v UCONN, 4 Kentucky v 5 Indiana, 1 North Carolina v 8 USC, 3 WV v 6 ND. Maybe even use the 8 v 9 games as the play ins.

The issue I have with 32 is it's still quite a large percentage of the available pool. Remember that a lot of the leagues probably aren't coming along. I'd like to stick with a lower number so that the value of regular season games become inherent rather than dependent upon its relevance to the postseason resume.

You'd still have a few play-in games and then the quality teams really take over. I think it would be a good event.

I'd like to see the tournament restrict the number of conference entrants to 3 or 4. No conference needs 7 schools in the mix. I like cutting it to 32 and putting a 3 team cap per conference on the field.

Since Oklahoma and Georgia liberated college football dollars from the NCAA, the basketball tournament has become the largest source of income for the entire NCAA.
As long as the basketball tournament pays the NCAA's overhead, the tournament will never shrink the number of participants.
Would the directors of the NCAA ruin a sport just so they could continue collecting their lofty salaries? Why not, they can't even follow their own rules. Greed, is killing off sports at all levels.

True, but if the separation were to occur then a new tournament could be established. As long as the Power leagues and all the decent basketball conferences are involved then the sponsors and networks will recognize the new tournament instead of the one the NCAA puts on.
12-28-2016 04:21 PM
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Post: #18
RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 02:56 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 12:51 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 11:05 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Separation & reducing the number of teams competing at the highest level will not only add meaning to the regular season but make the tournament better as well. The "stinkers" will not only be removed from the regular season but the tournament as well. Starting the tourney with 32 teams means that 1 v 8 & 2 v7 are your most lopsided matchups, those are usually good games. You would have >200 teams playing for about 16 at large bids & about half of them could get it. That adds value to the regular season & makes the tourney exciting.

Using last years tournament, here are some examples of what the first round could look like with 32 teams:
1 Kansas v UCONN, 4 Kentucky v 5 Indiana, 1 North Carolina v 8 USC, 3 WV v 6 ND. Maybe even use the 8 v 9 games as the play ins.

The issue I have with 32 is it's still quite a large percentage of the available pool. Remember that a lot of the leagues probably aren't coming along. I'd like to stick with a lower number so that the value of regular season games become inherent rather than dependent upon its relevance to the postseason resume.

You'd still have a few play-in games and then the quality teams really take over. I think it would be a good event.

I'd like to see the tournament restrict the number of conference entrants to 3 or 4. No conference needs 7 schools in the mix. I like cutting it to 32 and putting a 3 team cap per conference on the field.

If we really want to get crazy and make the basketball season a spectacle unto itself then we should structure the conference schedules like soccer leagues...

1. The conferences play almost exclusively conference games. You play everyone twice, once home and once away.

2. Non conference games are limited to preseason tournaments and OOC rivalries. In other words...make the non-conference games must see events rather than regularly scheduled affairs.

3. Limit conference tournaments to the top 4 teams.

4. In order to determine the participants in the national tournament, take the top 2 teams from each league.

These are the leagues I'm imagining being participants(assuming the remnants of the Big 12 are consumed by the other leagues):

ACC, B1G, PAC, SEC, AAC, MWC, Big East, Atlantic 10, MVC, and a West Coast based league...

So far that's 10 leagues and 20 teams. For sake of argument, let's say there are 32 entrants. This is where it gets a little complicated. During the first 4 years, take the top 3 teams from each league and give a bonus spot to two traditionally strong leagues. After 4 years, use a coefficient to determine how many teams from each league get in. The coefficient is based on the performance of league teams in the tournament. After that initial 4 years, I imagine some leagues will get 4 or even 5 slots and some will only get the original 2 I outlined earlier. Whatever adds up to 32...

Every 4 years, re-evaluate the number of slots based on the coefficient's cumulative results from the last 4 years.

So all of a sudden, the regular season is of immense importance because where you finish in the conference race is what determines whether you get into the national tournament or not rather than a committee.

Thoughts?
12-28-2016 04:56 PM
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Post: #19
RE: Separation from the NCAA
(12-28-2016 04:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 02:56 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 12:51 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(12-28-2016 11:05 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Separation & reducing the number of teams competing at the highest level will not only add meaning to the regular season but make the tournament better as well. The "stinkers" will not only be removed from the regular season but the tournament as well. Starting the tourney with 32 teams means that 1 v 8 & 2 v7 are your most lopsided matchups, those are usually good games. You would have >200 teams playing for about 16 at large bids & about half of them could get it. That adds value to the regular season & makes the tourney exciting.

Using last years tournament, here are some examples of what the first round could look like with 32 teams:
1 Kansas v UCONN, 4 Kentucky v 5 Indiana, 1 North Carolina v 8 USC, 3 WV v 6 ND. Maybe even use the 8 v 9 games as the play ins.

The issue I have with 32 is it's still quite a large percentage of the available pool. Remember that a lot of the leagues probably aren't coming along. I'd like to stick with a lower number so that the value of regular season games become inherent rather than dependent upon its relevance to the postseason resume.

You'd still have a few play-in games and then the quality teams really take over. I think it would be a good event.

I'd like to see the tournament restrict the number of conference entrants to 3 or 4. No conference needs 7 schools in the mix. I like cutting it to 32 and putting a 3 team cap per conference on the field.

If we really want to get crazy and make the basketball season a spectacle unto itself then we should structure the conference schedules like soccer leagues...

1. The conferences play almost exclusively conference games. You play everyone twice, once home and once away.

2. Non conference games are limited to preseason tournaments and OOC rivalries. In other words...make the non-conference games must see events rather than regularly scheduled affairs.

3. Limit conference tournaments to the top 4 teams.

4. In order to determine the participants in the national tournament, take the top 2 teams from each league.

These are the leagues I'm imagining being participants(assuming the remnants of the Big 12 are consumed by the other leagues):

ACC, B1G, PAC, SEC, AAC, MWC, Big East, Atlantic 10, MVC, and a West Coast based league...

So far that's 10 leagues and 20 teams. For sake of argument, let's say there are 32 entrants. This is where it gets a little complicated. During the first 4 years, take the top 3 teams from each league and give a bonus spot to two traditionally strong leagues. After 4 years, use a coefficient to determine how many teams from each league get in. The coefficient is based on the performance of league teams in the tournament. After that initial 4 years, I imagine some leagues will get 4 or even 5 slots and some will only get the original 2 I outlined earlier. Whatever adds up to 32...

Every 4 years, re-evaluate the number of slots based on the coefficient's cumulative results from the last 4 years.

So all of a sudden, the regular season is of immense importance because where you finish in the conference race is what determines whether you get into the national tournament or not rather than a committee.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of the regular season determining the entrants. I could see using the football P4 and then having the remaining hoops first powers consolidate into 4 conferences. If each got their top 4 in the tournament then there's your 32. That would work for me.
12-28-2016 06:25 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Separation from the NCAA
A break away P4 basketball tournament should be champions only.
One weekend....final four.
The conference tournament to determine a champion could be stretched out over two weekends to generate money for the conferences.
It would be important to follow the champions only format for basketball if it were adopted for football as well.
12-29-2016 08:52 AM
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