And they, in my opinion, are starting to ruin the game. Instead of black and white rules used for decades, it is just a ref's judgement call and the rules are subjective. I have watched two games on the same day and saw opposite calls on the exact same scenario. These particularly bug me:

1) Making a "football move after the catch". How about simply making an obvious catch, and control of the ball, with both feet down.

2) Helmet to helmet hits OK if not considered intentional targeting.
How does a ref make that judgement. Saw a helmet to helmet targeting call reversed today.

3) Calls for PI have been turned into the "flavor of the week". Hand fighting is allowed... no wait. No it's not this week. Should be reviewed in the booth just like a targeting call. These calls are total game-changers.

4) The ball can touch the ground, but ground cannot help receiver catch ball. How about if the ball touches the ground at all it is incomplete. Get your hand under the ball. If you don't just try again. You usually get three chances.

5) Holding calls.... how about call a guy for really holding, not just two or three fingers on some ones jersey. Even better, call the penalty only if the hold directly affects the play. Many times the "hold" is on the other side of the line, or field for that matter.

This is just a few rules that I think are detrimental to the game. Let me know if there are any that bother you all. Flags are taking control of the game.

(12-31-2016 01:07 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  And they, in my opinion, are starting to ruin the game. Instead of black and white rules used for decades, it is just a ref's judgement call and the rules are subjective. I have watched two games on the same day and saw opposite calls on the exact same scenario. These particularly bug me:

1) Making a "football move after the catch". How about simply making an obvious catch, and control of the ball, with both feet down.

2) Helmet to helmet hits OK if not considered intentional targeting.
How does a ref make that judgement. Saw a helmet to helmet targeting call reversed today.

3) Calls for PI have been turned into the "flavor of the week". Hand fighting is allowed... no wait. No it's not this week. Should be reviewed in the booth just like a targeting call. These calls are total game-changers.

4) The ball can touch the ground, but ground cannot help receiver catch ball. How about if the ball touches the ground at all it is incomplete. Get your hand under the ball. If you don't just try again. You usually get three chances.

5) Holding calls.... how about call a guy for really holding, not just two or three fingers on some ones jersey. Even better, call the penalty only if the hold directly affects the play. Many times the "hold" is on the other side of the line, or field for that matter.

This is just a few rules that I think are detrimental to the game. Let me know if there are any that bother you all. Flags are taking control of the game.

This bowl season so far 79% of the point underdogs have won. Check that against the closing spread it's probably around 85% which is what it is in the NFL. Remember the closing spread isn't about points, it's about how much was bet on either school.

So Medic, how does gambling get into college football? Well it's not the coaches. It's not the players. But the officials make precious little compared to what the gambling industry pays out. A six figured salary is peanuts for big time gambling. So my friend we have subjective rules like the two exact same targeting calls which I saw as well. If one deserved an ejection (Florida State's) then T.C.U.'s deserved an ejection as well.

How about the Big 12 crew who worked the Virginia Tech / Arkansas game? On a play that has a potential score or change of possession in it the officials are supposed to automatically check with the replay booth. Bielema had to challenge a such a call and lost his challenge and a timeout. Then in the second half when his receiver stretched for the goal line and fumbled the ball the cameras actually showed it dribbling out of bounds before passing the orange pylon. That affects change of possession because if it goes out of bounds after crossing the goal line, which is what was ruled on the field, it's a touch back. If it goes out of bounds prior to crossing the goal line it belongs to the team that last possessed it, in this case Arkansas at the 1/2 yard line. Instead Arkansas couldn't call for a review and the one that should have automatically been sought wasn't. The result was Arkansas kept the ball on a holding call, but instead of possessing it at the VT goal line they started inside the Arkansas 40. That's a helluva lot of difference and proved to be a game changer for momentum.

But it didn't just happen to SEC schools. I've seen it in many of the bowls. There are reasons beyond gambling for it happen as well. A close game is watched. A blowout is not. There is a temptation present for the sponsors to want to the officials to keep the contest from getting out of hand. And the networks make more the longer you and the rest of the world watches.

As my grandfather was fond of saying, "It's crooked as a dog's hind leg!" And, I've never seen it this blatant before.

The targeting against T.C.U. is supposed to result in at least a 15 yard penalty, and of course possible ejection for the player involved. Not only did they rescind the ejection, but they waived off the penalty, which is a direct violation of the rules.

I saw calls go against South Florida when it looked as though they were going to blowout the Gamecocks. Indiana suffered a few odd calls against Utah.

It's out of control Medic and you are 100% correct to call it out. Just understand that they can hide behind it being a judgement call, or call it different standards practiced by different conference officials, but in the end the question not being asked is what was the motivations for the rulings in games where the outcome, or the size of the outcomes were consistently, and conveniently, and suspiciously, in favor of the house for the gambling industry.

It's an allegation that needs more attention. If they are clean then I want them to prove it. If they are incompetent I want them to be canned. But it's a mess and it is ruining the game not only for the players but for the fans.

(12-31-2016 03:07 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 01:07 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  And they, in my opinion, are starting to ruin the game. Instead of black and white rules used for decades, it is just a ref's judgement call and the rules are subjective. I have watched two games on the same day and saw opposite calls on the exact same scenario. These particularly bug me:

1) Making a "football move after the catch". How about simply making an obvious catch, and control of the ball, with both feet down.

2) Helmet to helmet hits OK if not considered intentional targeting.
How does a ref make that judgement. Saw a helmet to helmet targeting call reversed today.

3) Calls for PI have been turned into the "flavor of the week". Hand fighting is allowed... no wait. No it's not this week. Should be reviewed in the booth just like a targeting call. These calls are total game-changers.

4) The ball can touch the ground, but ground cannot help receiver catch ball. How about if the ball touches the ground at all it is incomplete. Get your hand under the ball. If you don't just try again. You usually get three chances.

5) Holding calls.... how about call a guy for really holding, not just two or three fingers on some ones jersey. Even better, call the penalty only if the hold directly affects the play. Many times the "hold" is on the other side of the line, or field for that matter.

This is just a few rules that I think are detrimental to the game. Let me know if there are any that bother you all. Flags are taking control of the game.

This bowl season so far 79% of the point underdogs have won. Check that against the closing spread it's probably around 85% which is what it is in the NFL. Remember the closing spread isn't about points, it's about how much was bet on either school.

So Medic, how does gambling get into college football? Well it's not the coaches. It's not the players. But the officials make precious little compared to what the gambling industry pays out. A six figured salary is peanuts for big time gambling. So my friend we have subjective rules like the two exact same targeting calls which I saw as well. If one deserved an ejection (Florida State's) then T.C.U.'s deserved an ejection as well.

How about the Big 12 crew who worked the Virginia Tech / Arkansas game? On a play that has a potential score or change of possession in it the officials are supposed to automatically check with the replay booth. Bielema had to challenge a such a call and lost his challenge and a timeout. Then in the second half when his receiver stretched for the goal line and fumbled the ball the cameras actually showed it dribbling out of bounds before passing the orange pylon. That affects change of possession because if it goes out of bounds after crossing the goal line, which is what was ruled on the field, it's a touch back. If it goes out of bounds prior to crossing the goal line it belongs to the team that last possessed it, in this case Arkansas at the 1/2 yard line. Instead Arkansas couldn't call for a review and the one that should have automatically been sought wasn't. The result was Arkansas kept the ball on a holding call, but instead of possessing it at the VT goal line they started inside the Arkansas 40. That's a helluva lot of difference and proved to be a game changer for momentum.

But it didn't just happen to SEC schools. I've seen it in many of the bowls. There are reasons beyond gambling for it happen as well. A close game is watched. A blowout is not. There is a temptation present for the sponsors to want to the officials to keep the contest from getting out of hand. And the networks make more the longer you and the rest of the world watches.

As my grandfather was fond of saying, "It's crooked as a dog's hind leg!" And, I've never seen it this blatant before.

The targeting against T.C.U. is supposed to result in at least a 15 yard penalty, and of course possible ejection for the player involved. Not only did they rescind the ejection, but they waived off the penalty, which is a direct violation of the rules.

I saw calls go against South Florida when it looked as though they were going to blowout the Gamecocks. Indiana suffered a few odd calls against Utah.

It's out of control Medic and you are 100% correct to call it out. Just understand that they can hide behind it being a judgement call, or call it different standards practiced by different conference officials, but in the end the question not being asked is what was the motivations for the rulings in games where the outcome, or the size of the outcomes were consistently, and conveniently, and suspiciously, in favor of the house for the gambling industry.

It's an allegation that needs more attention. If they are clean then I want them to prove it. If they are incompetent I want them to be canned. But it's a mess and it is ruining the game not only for the players but for the fans.

Every time I see five or six officials in a huddle, I always wonder what they are really talking about. These guys huddle up every other play. You are right. Either they are incompetent, or the booth is giving them the Vegas line on the game.

There is always going to be a subjective element.

Even if you replay every play and make every call reviewable you cannot remove that element.

(12-31-2016 12:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  There is always going to be a subjective element.

Even if you replay every play and make every call reviewable you cannot remove that element.

Actually what I think Medic wants are rules that are hard and fast and leave little room for interpretation. It's true that with targeting and holding and pass interference we have left much of the game open to radical interpretation. But, I also think you are correct in that using video to determine targeting is ridiculous when they can't agree on the interpretation of what they just watched. It all seems way to arbitrary.

I'm in favor of video for spotting the ball and determining possession. That's about it.

(12-31-2016 02:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 12:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  There is always going to be a subjective element.

Even if you replay every play and make every call reviewable you cannot remove that element.

Actually what I think Medic wants are rules that are hard and fast and leave little room for interpretation. It's true that with targeting and holding and pass interference we have left much of the game open to radical interpretation. But, I also think you are correct in that using video to determine targeting is ridiculous when they can't agree on the interpretation of what they just watched. It all seems way to arbitrary.

I'm in favor of video for spotting the ball and determining possession. That's about it.

Some of the rules will always be subjective, but things like pass completions should be cut and dry. They have made PI way too much of an issue. Do not make contact with the receiver. Incidental contact should be taken out of the rule book. More subjectivity.

(12-31-2016 06:21 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 02:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 12:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  There is always going to be a subjective element.

Even if you replay every play and make every call reviewable you cannot remove that element.

Actually what I think Medic wants are rules that are hard and fast and leave little room for interpretation. It's true that with targeting and holding and pass interference we have left much of the game open to radical interpretation. But, I also think you are correct in that using video to determine targeting is ridiculous when they can't agree on the interpretation of what they just watched. It all seems way to arbitrary.

I'm in favor of video for spotting the ball and determining possession. That's about it.

Some of the rules will always be subjective, but things like pass completions should be cut and dry. They have made PI way too much of an issue. Do not make contact with the receiver. Incidental contact should be taken out of the rule book. More subjectivity.

Hey, I'm in total agreement with you about what it has become. I just think as many lousy spots as I watch that possession measurements could stand a little video, as well as turnovers. That is after all the only thing replay was originally intended to do.

The refs are incompetent, but the way the rules are written does them no favors either. And in the instances of a catch, replay can also be a disservice due to the fact the in real time, what might look like a catch might be questionable when viewed in slow mo. Some changes I would like to see are:

* A tracker in the ball and in the field. There should be no such thing as questionable spots or whether the plane is broken.
* Eliminate the current holding call and change it to the O-Line can't take anyone to the ground.
* Eliminate the current PI call and change it too the WR can't be tackled while the ball is in flight.
* Give the coach 3 challenges and limit booth replay to turnovers and scoring plays.
* Full time refs sanctioned by the NCAA and consistent rules throughout CFB.

I appreciate the refs can't be perfect and I feel that expectation is what is ultimately undermining their performance from the fans POV.

(12-31-2016 09:30 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The refs are incompetent, but the way the rules are written does them no favors either. And in the instances of a catch, replay can also be a disservice due to the fact the in real time, what might look like a catch might be questionable when viewed in slow mo. Some changes I would like to see are:

* A tracker in the ball and in the field. There should be no such thing as questionable spots or whether the plane is broken.
* Eliminate the current holding call and change it to the O-Line can't take anyone to the ground.
* Eliminate the current PI call and change it too the WR can't be tackled while the ball is in flight.
* Give the coach 3 challenges and limit booth replay to turnovers and scoring plays.
* Full time refs sanctioned by the NCAA and consistent rules throughout CFB.

I appreciate the refs can't be perfect and I feel that expectation is what is ultimately undermining their performance from the fans POV.

I totally agree about using tracking technology for ball placement, end zone penetration, and for that matter field goals. They can also handle out of bounds for the ball, but we would need sensors in all shoes to distinguish when a player steps out. I don't know if that is practical.

(12-31-2016 09:30 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The refs are incompetent, but the way the rules are written does them no favors either. And in the instances of a catch, replay can also be a disservice due to the fact the in real time, what might look like a catch might be questionable when viewed in slow mo. Some changes I would like to see are:

* A tracker in the ball and in the field. There should be no such thing as questionable spots or whether the plane is broken.
* Eliminate the current holding call and change it to the O-Line can't take anyone to the ground.
* Eliminate the current PI call and change it too the WR can't be tackled while the ball is in flight.
* Give the coach 3 challenges and limit booth replay to turnovers and scoring plays.
* Full time refs sanctioned by the NCAA and consistent rules throughout CFB.

I appreciate the refs can't be perfect and I feel that expectation is what is ultimately undermining their performance from the fans POV.

I have always felt that way regarding holding, and totally agree with you. They are so worried about the QBs' health, maybe they ought to allow the O Line to hold if necessary to keep the QB alive. Holding calls take up so much extra time and extend the game even further. I agree also that slow-mo completely changes the look of a play. I told my son the replay booth should have to review in real time just like the officials on the field. Finally, three challenges, or two per half would make the game faster and flow much better. It is like they review everything. The NFL got it right on this one. If you want to use upstairs replay for the last two minutes, fine.

So, once again today, another subjective call. A pic called on Southern Cal in the end zone. They erased a USC touchdown in the Rose Bowl. The first words out of the TV guy's mouth was " that's really tough. They often just let those calls go". Let them go? What the heck is that all about? Enforcing the rules when the mood suits the officials (or when they are losing their bets). I am rooting for Penn State, but this stuff is for the birds.