Here's the thing though....that ship has long sailed. Every single year, someone is nominated/inducted who traditionalists will say shouldn't be in, simply because "rock and roll" should be kept inside this neatly defined box......whatever the definition of that box is.

I think it's about the legacy and the influence you leave behind more so than whether your music has a specific sound. Hank Williams was inducted in 1987. Does he belong? Hell yes he does.

Oh, and I could make a really good argument for Garth Brooks. I think that'll happen in our lifetimes.

(12-21-2016 11:03 AM)HornLakeTiger Wrote:  Here's the thing though....that ship has long sailed. Every single year, someone is nominated/inducted who traditionalists will say shouldn't be in, simply because "rock and roll" should be kept inside this neatly defined box......whatever the definition of that box is.

I think it's about the legacy and the influence you leave behind more so than whether your music has a specific sound. Hank Williams was inducted in 1987. Does he belong? Hell yes he does.

Oh, and I could make a really good argument for Garth Brooks. I think that'll happen in our lifetimes.

The "just because it happened before" isn't a logical answer. More importantly, (for the jillionth time) one can make an easy argument for Run and a straight faced one for PE and BB. NWA and Tupac not so much.

As for Hank, Sr--I have no issue with precursors to the actual genre being inducted. As I noted before, the influences BEFORE and during the birth and growth of the rock genre spanned many different types of music. John Coltrane isn't in and surely isn't "rock." BUT, he influenced a boatload of musicians and that can be easily traced to early jazz fusion artists like Steely Dan and Spiro Gyra into some of the bands today. (especially the jam type).

I actually didn't know John Coltrane wasn't in. That's a travesty in itself.

At the end of the day, every year, they're going to induct whoever can sell tickets and put on a great show at the ceremony. But I do dig these kinds of debates. I can talk music all day.

Here's another name that will make a lot of rock fans cringe, but have sold millions of records....

Bon Jovi

37 million albums sold in the US, and have only been nominated once (2011) since they became eligible in 2008.

(12-21-2016 11:33 AM)HornLakeTiger Wrote:  I actually didn't know John Coltrane wasn't in. That's a travesty in itself.

At the end of the day, every year, they're going to induct whoever can sell tickets and put on a great show at the ceremony. But I do dig these kinds of debates. I can talk music all day.

Here's another name that will make a lot of rock fans cringe, but have sold millions of records....

Bon Jovi

37 million albums sold in the US, and have only been nominated once (2011) since they became eligible in 2008.

...and that is a joke they aren't in. Like them or not, they were one of the biggest rock bands (heck, musical acts) for close to a decade. There are kids that will be born today that will be screaming "whoa, yeah, livin' on a prayer" when the song comes on at a party/in a bar in 2035--almost 50 years after the song came out.

Let that sink in.

Hell, Bad Company isn't in.

(12-21-2016 09:57 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 05:19 AM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  

(12-20-2016 07:56 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(12-20-2016 06:35 PM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  

(12-20-2016 05:39 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  How the f--- would you know that? Were you hanging with 2Pac from 1990 until he died in 1996?

Common sense.

How many rock concerts did 2Pac go to?

Not as many as me.

So you don't know. You don't know what 2Pac did in his life. You don't know what music he enjoyed. You don't know which artists he had friendships with. He was in the entertainment business. He was directly connected to Jimmy Iovine. So you don't know if the guy went to a rock concert a night.

Just because he was a black rapper doesn't mean he wasn't a rock guy or metal head.

The fact that you believe Tupac should be in the ROCK AND ROLL HOF should have signaled to me sooner that I shouldn't be having this discussion with you or anyone else that believes the same. There's no common ground to produce any intelligent dialog. Enjoy the ceremony.

Why shouldnt a rapper be in the Rock and Roll Hof?

(12-21-2016 02:04 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  Why shouldnt a rapper be in the Rock and Roll Hof?

You answered your own question.

And, for the jillionth+1 time, it's not just that rappers shouldn't be in. It's rappers WITHOUT any logical nexus to rock that don't need to be in.

Again, see Run, LL, PE, BB in posts above.

It's not just a "rap" thing, it is a lack of association to the for. Like I noted, Garth, Reba, Faith Hill, and Brooks and Dunn have no business ever being considered for the HoF. And, best I can tell, that has never been a consideration or argument.

(12-21-2016 10:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 10:31 AM)HornLakeTiger Wrote:  One of my favorite debates of the year..

As far as Tupac Shakur goes, he is a more than deserving first ballot HOFer. Angry white guys who scream "RAP AIN'T MUSIC" really aren't going to change their minds, so we'll just leave it at that.

The biggest shocker to me was the fact that Journey had never even been nominated until now. Can they talk Steve Perry into showing up? I doubt it, but I'd love to see it happen.

It's not that it isn't music, it isn't rock and roll.

Thus, I would have the same issue if Garth Brooks were elected into the R&R HOF. No doubt he's massively successful, has tremendous star power, made movies, inspired a look, had copycat musicians, is a "rock star of country"...etc.

But, he shouldn't be in the R&R Hall of Fame.

What if they let one Chris Gaines?

It's Janet Jackson probably should be in over 2Pac, but there is a bias against R & B artist there isn't with hip-hop artists.

(12-21-2016 01:29 PM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 09:57 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 05:19 AM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  

(12-20-2016 07:56 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(12-20-2016 06:35 PM)oldmangrizz Wrote:  Common sense.

How many rock concerts did 2Pac go to?

Not as many as me.

So you don't know. You don't know what 2Pac did in his life. You don't know what music he enjoyed. You don't know which artists he had friendships with. He was in the entertainment business. He was directly connected to Jimmy Iovine. So you don't know if the guy went to a rock concert a night.

Just because he was a black rapper doesn't mean he wasn't a rock guy or metal head.

The fact that you believe Tupac should be in the ROCK AND ROLL HOF should have signaled to me sooner that I shouldn't be having this discussion with you or anyone else that believes the same. There's no common ground to produce any intelligent dialog. Enjoy the ceremony.

If you wanted intelligent dialogue, you shouldn't have made a judgment of Tupac Shakur based on the number of rock concerts he went to, a number that you don't have.

(12-21-2016 02:09 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 02:04 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  Why shouldnt a rapper be in the Rock and Roll Hof?

You answered your own question.

And, for the jillionth+1 time, it's not just that rappers shouldn't be in. It's rappers WITHOUT any logical nexus to rock that don't need to be in.

Again, see Run, LL, PE, BB in posts above.

It's not just a "rap" thing, it is a lack of association to the for. Like I noted, Garth, Reba, Faith Hill, and Brooks and Dunn have no business ever being considered for the HoF. And, best I can tell, that has never been a consideration or argument.

Rap is a direct descendant of Rock and Roll just like Rock and Roll wouldn't exist without gospel, jazz, boogie woogie, and rhythm and blues.

It's all just music

Music still seems to be a point of much contention....always has been, though.
I mean, comeon...Didn't at least one of y'all have a parent, or have a friend whose parent broke one of his/her albums.... lol

(12-21-2016 02:24 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 02:09 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 02:04 PM)Dynamos Wrote:  Why shouldnt a rapper be in the Rock and Roll Hof?

You answered your own question.

And, for the jillionth+1 time, it's not just that rappers shouldn't be in. It's rappers WITHOUT any logical nexus to rock that don't need to be in.

Again, see Run, LL, PE, BB in posts above.

It's not just a "rap" thing, it is a lack of association to the for. Like I noted, Garth, Reba, Faith Hill, and Brooks and Dunn have no business ever being considered for the HoF. And, best I can tell, that has never been a consideration or argument.

Rap is a direct descendant of Rock and Roll just like Rock and Roll wouldn't exist without gospel, jazz, boogie woogie, and rhythm and blues.

It's all just music

Not at all. I mean for starters, a critical tenet of rock is that the people making records are actually PLAYING instruments, not scratching a piece of vinyl.

(12-21-2016 02:09 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 10:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 10:31 AM)HornLakeTiger Wrote:  One of my favorite debates of the year..

As far as Tupac Shakur goes, he is a more than deserving first ballot HOFer. Angry white guys who scream "RAP AIN'T MUSIC" really aren't going to change their minds, so we'll just leave it at that.

The biggest shocker to me was the fact that Journey had never even been nominated until now. Can they talk Steve Perry into showing up? I doubt it, but I'd love to see it happen.

It's not that it isn't music, it isn't rock and roll.

Thus, I would have the same issue if Garth Brooks were elected into the R&R HOF. No doubt he's massively successful, has tremendous star power, made movies, inspired a look, had copycat musicians, is a "rock star of country"...etc.

But, he shouldn't be in the R&R Hall of Fame.

What if they let one Chris Gaines?

It's Janet Jackson probably should be in over 2Pac, but there is a bias against R & B artist there isn't with hip-hop artists.

I'm against Janet, too. Love her music, but pumping out Black Cat doesn't make one rock. Same for Madonna. Great pop artist and icon, but she ain't rock.

Again, just rename it the music HoF if you want to include all types.

But when we are enshrining Madonna and Tupac, and arguing about when Janet or Whitney will get in when Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Black Crowes, Bon Jovi, Bad Company, Judas Priest, Maiden, Dio, the Cars, and many others aren't in is absurd.

(12-21-2016 03:22 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 02:09 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 10:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 10:31 AM)HornLakeTiger Wrote:  One of my favorite debates of the year..

As far as Tupac Shakur goes, he is a more than deserving first ballot HOFer. Angry white guys who scream "RAP AIN'T MUSIC" really aren't going to change their minds, so we'll just leave it at that.

The biggest shocker to me was the fact that Journey had never even been nominated until now. Can they talk Steve Perry into showing up? I doubt it, but I'd love to see it happen.

It's not that it isn't music, it isn't rock and roll.

Thus, I would have the same issue if Garth Brooks were elected into the R&R HOF. No doubt he's massively successful, has tremendous star power, made movies, inspired a look, had copycat musicians, is a "rock star of country"...etc.

But, he shouldn't be in the R&R Hall of Fame.

What if they let one Chris Gaines?

It's Janet Jackson probably should be in over 2Pac, but there is a bias against R & B artist there isn't with hip-hop artists.

I'm against Janet, too. Love her music, but pumping out Black Cat doesn't make one rock. Same for Madonna. Great pop artist and icon, but she ain't rock.

Again, just rename it the music HoF if you want to include all types.

But when we are enshrining Madonna and Tupac, and arguing about when Janet or Whitney will get in when Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Black Crowes, Bon Jovi, Bad Company, Judas Priest, Maiden, Dio, the Cars, and many others aren't in is absurd.

How is Van Halen rock and roll? Sounds NOTHING like Elvis or Little Richard.

(12-21-2016 05:42 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 03:22 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 02:09 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 10:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 10:31 AM)HornLakeTiger Wrote:  One of my favorite debates of the year..

As far as Tupac Shakur goes, he is a more than deserving first ballot HOFer. Angry white guys who scream "RAP AIN'T MUSIC" really aren't going to change their minds, so we'll just leave it at that.

The biggest shocker to me was the fact that Journey had never even been nominated until now. Can they talk Steve Perry into showing up? I doubt it, but I'd love to see it happen.

It's not that it isn't music, it isn't rock and roll.

Thus, I would have the same issue if Garth Brooks were elected into the R&R HOF. No doubt he's massively successful, has tremendous star power, made movies, inspired a look, had copycat musicians, is a "rock star of country"...etc.

But, he shouldn't be in the R&R Hall of Fame.

What if they let one Chris Gaines?

It's Janet Jackson probably should be in over 2Pac, but there is a bias against R & B artist there isn't with hip-hop artists.

I'm against Janet, too. Love her music, but pumping out Black Cat doesn't make one rock. Same for Madonna. Great pop artist and icon, but she ain't rock.

Again, just rename it the music HoF if you want to include all types.

But when we are enshrining Madonna and Tupac, and arguing about when Janet or Whitney will get in when Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Black Crowes, Bon Jovi, Bad Company, Judas Priest, Maiden, Dio, the Cars, and many others aren't in is absurd.

How is Van Halen rock and roll? Sounds NOTHING like Elvis or Little Richard.

Fail.

There are a lot of artists that should be in listed above....especially, Whitney, Bon Jovi, Judas Preist, the Cars...and I would add the Smiths. However, the problem isn't letting other genres in, its that the Rock and Roll HoF only allows a few artists in each year. Induct more than 4 to 6 a year. There is no reason for this years class not to have Tupac AND Whitney AND Pearl Jam AND ELO AND Yes AND Journey AND Bon Jovi AND Joan Baez(Not rock and roll either btw) AND Judas Preist(metal not rock and roll btw).

Let the people have their fun.

(12-21-2016 09:57 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-21-2016 09:07 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  The pointless outrage meter broke on this thread.

It doesn't rule my life, I just thought it would be a decent little message board topic.

Call me crazy, I have this weird desire for words to matter. Certain artists, no matter how you slice it, aren't a part of rock in any way, shape, or form.

Again, I've tipped my hat to Run, Beasties, and a few others as to how one could make the argument.

However, the idea that NWA and Tupac are getting in over bands like the Black Crowes, Moody Blues, Big Star, Judas Priest, the Cars, the Cure, the Replacements, Bon Jovi...etc is absurd and best and seems to be a PC extension of the need for inclusion.

Rambling response = guilt.

I think we can all agree on one thing...the RNRHOF is a joke.

cleve. land.
shrug.