UT was 4 for 10 on 4th downs for the season, 2 for 5 each rushing & passing. That 40% success rate is not very good; ranks 107th in the FBS, although one of those failed conversions was running out the clock on 4th & 17 vs. CMU. Might have played into Coach's mind a little. The dubious rush attempt at WMU on 4th & 2 may have as well, 'cause it sure did for me, and I, like many Rocket fans, would have loved to see a pass over the middle by the nation's leader in TD passes to the best receiving TE in UT history, on either 3rd & 1 OR 4th & 1. Get 'em on TV one last time with a go-ahead play that would have been shown on all the SportsCenters for the next 15 hours, win or lose.

Easy for me to say 5 days later and all, but it would not be possible to fault the play call even if it failed. Go down swingin' with your strongest weapon. Instead, it failed anyway, and Coach's decisions get placed under the microscope, and I think, rightfully so.

(12-22-2016 11:11 PM)therockets046 Wrote:  UT was 4 for 10 on 4th downs for the season, 2 for 5 each rushing & passing. That 40% success rate is not very good; ranks 107th in the FBS, although one of those failed conversions was running out the clock on 4th & 17 vs. CMU. Might have played into Coach's mind a little. The dubious rush attempt at WMU on 4th & 2 may have as well, 'cause it sure did for me, and I, like many Rocket fans, would have loved to see a pass over the middle by the nation's leader in TD passes to the best receiving TE in UT history, on either 3rd & 1 OR 4th & 1. Get 'em on TV one last time with a go-ahead play that would have been shown on all the SportsCenters for the next 15 hours, win or lose.

Easy for me to say 5 days later and all, but it would not be possible to fault the play call even if it failed. Go down swingin' with your strongest weapon. Instead, it failed anyway, and Coach's decisions get placed under the microscope, and I think, rightfully so.

didn't it seem like that series at least 1 try needed to go to Michael Roberts? But instead Jones-Moore?
Don't get me wrong I actually really like Jones-Moore but I question that 3rd down big time.

(12-22-2016 11:40 PM)owen Wrote:  

(12-22-2016 11:11 PM)therockets046 Wrote:  UT was 4 for 10 on 4th downs for the season, 2 for 5 each rushing & passing. That 40% success rate is not very good; ranks 107th in the FBS, although one of those failed conversions was running out the clock on 4th & 17 vs. CMU. Might have played into Coach's mind a little. The dubious rush attempt at WMU on 4th & 2 may have as well, 'cause it sure did for me, and I, like many Rocket fans, would have loved to see a pass over the middle by the nation's leader in TD passes to the best receiving TE in UT history, on either 3rd & 1 OR 4th & 1. Get 'em on TV one last time with a go-ahead play that would have been shown on all the SportsCenters for the next 15 hours, win or lose.

Easy for me to say 5 days later and all, but it would not be possible to fault the play call even if it failed. Go down swingin' with your strongest weapon. Instead, it failed anyway, and Coach's decisions get placed under the microscope, and I think, rightfully so.

didn't it seem like that series at least 1 try needed to go to Michael Roberts? But instead Jones-Moore?
Don't get me wrong I actually really like Jones-Moore but I question that 3rd down big time.

Toledo was terrible in short yardage situations this year and not very good last year. If this was 2-3 years ago, Toledo would have picked up the first down on the ground no problem. Play action pass to the tight end would have been a great call.

Candle was stuck with a quandry. Hunt asked to come out of the game, whether it was for a blow or if he was dinged, I don't know. DJM had a nice pick up on first down. Toledo was having success running the hurry up, but that would have left more time for App St., had the Rockets scored. Unfortunately, after slowing things down, UT did not have the same success on 2nd & 3rd downs. If you throw the ball and it is incomplete, it leaves even more time for App St.

The bigger issue in my opinion is having to waste 2 timeouts in the 3rd quarter to get plays in.

We need linemen on both sides of the ball that can block on offense and get off blocks on defense. Enough of these 6'6 to 6'8 guys that cannot get leverage on the opposing DL for running plays and often get beat on pass protection as well. We have had a lot of guys make it in the NFL over the years, but I do not see any of the current guys getting there although Norton may continue to develop and add more strength. On the DL, we have had some good players - but they have been few and far between and not backed up by strong play at the LB position for rushing defense. We also struggle to get to the QB and our blitz packages have been dismal. Every time a team needs yards on a 3rd down - it is either a QB run or a pass over the middle and there is no linebacker in sight.

(12-24-2016 09:34 AM)MotoRocket Wrote:  We need linemen on both sides of the ball that can block. Enough of these 6'6 to 6'8 guys that cannot get leverage on the opposing DL for running plays and often get beat on pass protection as well. We have had a lot of guys make it in the NFL over the years, but I do not see any of the current guys getting there although Norton may continue to develop and add more strength. On the DL, we have had some good players - but they have been few and far between and not backed up by strong play at the LB position for rushing defense. We also struggle to get to the QB and our blitz packages have been dismal. Every time a team needs yards on a 3rd down - it is either a QB run or a pass over the middle and there is no linebacker in sight.

Agree it all begins with the line be it offense or defense. I may be wrong but without looking it up I strongly suspect that UT's 4th down conversion rate in 2012-2015 was better than the 40% obtained this year and, if so, I attribute that difference primarily to the offensive line. Looking ahead, I hope that I am wrong, but I believe that the Rockets are likely to take yet another step back next year regarding O-line play.

(12-23-2016 11:19 AM)Rocket A Wrote:  

(12-22-2016 11:40 PM)owen Wrote:  

(12-22-2016 11:11 PM)therockets046 Wrote:  UT was 4 for 10 on 4th downs for the season, 2 for 5 each rushing & passing. That 40% success rate is not very good; ranks 107th in the FBS, although one of those failed conversions was running out the clock on 4th & 17 vs. CMU. Might have played into Coach's mind a little. The dubious rush attempt at WMU on 4th & 2 may have as well, 'cause it sure did for me, and I, like many Rocket fans, would have loved to see a pass over the middle by the nation's leader in TD passes to the best receiving TE in UT history, on either 3rd & 1 OR 4th & 1. Get 'em on TV one last time with a go-ahead play that would have been shown on all the SportsCenters for the next 15 hours, win or lose.

Easy for me to say 5 days later and all, but it would not be possible to fault the play call even if it failed. Go down swingin' with your strongest weapon. Instead, it failed anyway, and Coach's decisions get placed under the microscope, and I think, rightfully so.

didn't it seem like that series at least 1 try needed to go to Michael Roberts? But instead Jones-Moore?
Don't get me wrong I actually really like Jones-Moore but I question that 3rd down big time.

Toledo was terrible in short yardage situations this year and not very good last year. If this was 2-3 years ago, Toledo would have picked up the first down on the ground no problem. Play action pass to the tight end would have been a great call.

Candle was stuck with a quandry. Hunt asked to come out of the game, whether it was for a blow or if he was dinged, I don't know. DJM had a nice pick up on first down. Toledo was having success running the hurry up, but that would have left more time for App St., had the Rockets scored. Unfortunately, after slowing things down, UT did not have the same success on 2nd & 3rd downs. If you throw the ball and it is incomplete, it leaves even more time for App St.

The bigger issue in my opinion is having to waste 2 timeouts in the 3rd quarter to get plays in.

So what???
App St had the lead. We needed to score regardless of how much time we left...no score...game over...

Oh well.
This season stunk in my opinion.

(12-24-2016 11:42 AM)owen Wrote:  So what???
App St had the lead. We needed to score regardless of how much time we left...no score...game over...

Oh well.
This season stunk in my opinion.

9-4...it sucks we couldn't get back-to-back double-digit win seasons, but it could be much worse. I had higher expectations for this team but I'm still proud of our Rockets. We're fortunate we get the chance to follow and support several of the graduating seniors playing in the NFL these next few years, will be a lot of fun, especially Kareem's career. A few thoughts on the losses...

*The loss to BYU was tough to swallow - why couldn't our defense make one damn stop there at the end to preserve the lead and ultimately the win? Just one stop...all game, literally one stop all game is all we asked for!

*The loss at home to OU was one of the worst losses in recent memory - sure, OU is a pretty decent team, but the feeling surrounding that game from start-to-finish just seemed off for some reason. Defense could not stop OU's RB to save a life...oh and did I mention it was a loss at home? I despise losing in the Glass Bowl. After that loss, we all knew our chances for a really special season were essentially over (being ranked and getting into New Years 6 bowl).

*The loss to WMU was expected...just wish we would have had a better showing on national television. Kareem played his heart out.

*The bowl game loss to Appalachian State has made me stop watching college football this season. Much like Eastisbest was proclaiming about this bowl game, the risks for a loss in this game greatly outweighed the rewards for a win. We have to accept that we lost to Appalachian State, a program that's been FBS for only 2 or 3 years now. We have to accept that we no longer own the Sun Belt Conference. And the loss means no rings for the seniors.

And as I've stressed before, I truly believe we finish the year 12-1 and a final top-20 ranking if Jaylen Coleman and Earl Moore are out there playing. And then we also win if Hester is playing in the bowl game. I realize injuries happen and are part of the game, but why them? Our 3 best defenders and really the only game-changers on defense.

Until next season! (Make it known, if Michael Warren ends up signing with Toledo on the first Wednesday of February, we're winning the MAC Championship next year)

(12-24-2016 01:13 PM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 11:42 AM)owen Wrote:  So what???
App St had the lead. We needed to score regardless of how much time we left...no score...game over...

Oh well.
This season stunk in my opinion.

9-4...it sucks we couldn't get back-to-back double-digit win seasons, but it could be much worse. I had higher expectations for this team but I'm still proud of our Rockets. We're fortunate we get the chance to follow and support several of the graduating seniors playing in the NFL these next few years, will be a lot of fun, especially Kareem's career. A few thoughts on the losses...

*The loss to BYU was tough to swallow - why couldn't our defense make one damn stop there at the end to preserve the lead and ultimately the win? Just one stop...all game, literally one stop all game is all we asked for!

*The loss at home to OU was one of the worst losses in recent memory - sure, OU is a pretty decent team, but the feeling surrounding that game from start-to-finish just seemed off for some reason. Defense could not stop OU's RB to save a life...oh and did I mention it was a loss at home? I despise losing in the Glass Bowl. After that loss, we all knew our chances for a really special season were essentially over (being ranked and getting into New Years 6 bowl).

*The loss to WMU was expected...just wish we would have had a better showing on national television. Kareem played his heart out.

*The bowl game loss to Appalachian State has made me stop watching college football this season. Much like Eastisbest was proclaiming about this bowl game, the risks for a loss in this game greatly outweighed the rewards for a win. We have to accept that we lost to Appalachian State, a program that's been FBS for only 2 or 3 years now. We have to accept that we no longer own the Sun Belt Conference. And the loss means no rings for the seniors.

And as I've stressed before, I truly believe we finish the year 12-1 and a final top-20 ranking if Jaylen Coleman and Earl Moore are out there playing. And then we also win if Hester is playing in the bowl game. I realize injuries happen and are part of the game, but why them? Our 3 best defenders and really the only game-changers on defense.

Until next season! (Make it known, if Michael Warren ends up signing with Toledo on the first Wednesday of February, we're winning the MAC Championship next year)

Love your optimism! I want to see Warren in a UT uniform like everyone else on this board, but I'm not sure 1 guy is the fix. The offense will move the ball and score points, maybe even as well as they did this past season. Too many gaps on D though, and I'm concerned that even if we somehow fill our losses on that side of the ball, will we have any depth left over? I'm thinking 7 wins and getting into a bowl will be a fair goal next season. We'll have 2 or 3 tough non-conference games, WMU won't drop off that badly (PJ's staying for a reason), NIU will be better, we're likely to be scheduled for a return game at Ohio, EMU could be tougher...but if we can hold onto our verbals thus far, and fill in late with some more talent on D, and we get another good class in the following year, I think by Warren's junior season we may have the pieces in place to again make a run at a MAC championship.

(12-24-2016 09:59 AM)T-Town Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:34 AM)MotoRocket Wrote:  We need linemen on both sides of the ball that can block. Enough of these 6'6 to 6'8 guys that cannot get leverage on the opposing DL for running plays and often get beat on pass protection as well. We have had a lot of guys make it in the NFL over the years, but I do not see any of the current guys getting there although Norton may continue to develop and add more strength. On the DL, we have had some good players - but they have been few and far between and not backed up by strong play at the LB position for rushing defense. We also struggle to get to the QB and our blitz packages have been dismal. Every time a team needs yards on a 3rd down - it is either a QB run or a pass over the middle and there is no linebacker in sight.

Agree it all begins with the line be it offense or defense. I may be wrong but without looking it up I strongly suspect that UT's 4th down conversion rate in 2012-2015 was better than the 40% obtained this year and, if so, I attribute that difference primarily to the offensive line. Looking ahead, I hope that I am wrong, but I believe that the Rockets are likely to take yet another step back next year regarding O-line play.

4th Down Conversion:
2016-17 4-10 .400
2015-16 10-22 .455
2014-15 9-14 .663
2013-14 8-16 .500
2012-13 8-17 .4737

(12-24-2016 02:42 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:59 AM)T-Town Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:34 AM)MotoRocket Wrote:  We need linemen on both sides of the ball that can block. Enough of these 6'6 to 6'8 guys that cannot get leverage on the opposing DL for running plays and often get beat on pass protection as well. We have had a lot of guys make it in the NFL over the years, but I do not see any of the current guys getting there although Norton may continue to develop and add more strength. On the DL, we have had some good players - but they have been few and far between and not backed up by strong play at the LB position for rushing defense. We also struggle to get to the QB and our blitz packages have been dismal. Every time a team needs yards on a 3rd down - it is either a QB run or a pass over the middle and there is no linebacker in sight.

Agree it all begins with the line be it offense or defense. I may be wrong but without looking it up I strongly suspect that UT's 4th down conversion rate in 2012-2015 was better than the 40% obtained this year and, if so, I attribute that difference primarily to the offensive line. Looking ahead, I hope that I am wrong, but I believe that the Rockets are likely to take yet another step back next year regarding O-line play.

4th Down Conversion:
2016-17 4-10 .400
2015-16 10-22 .455
2014-15 9-14 .663
2013-14 8-16 .500
2012-13 8-17 .4737

That's what I am talking about!!!

It's hard to say it's a bad season when you're 9-4, but yeah, it's tough when you realize you didn't win any games you weren't supposed to win, but did lose a couple games we were supposed to win. Didn't really win any of the close games—except Bowling Green, who kept the game close despite dubious talent & coaching, and NIU, who wasn't a good team, but getting that monkey off our back was arguably the best moment of our season.

Had a great time this season, don't get me wrong; I attended all 13 games and got to see some parts of the country and hang out with some great Rocket fans. Kind of a letdown when you see all the record setting personnel we had to work with this season and a pretty friendly schedule, and 9 wins is all we could get with it, with no championship or bowl win.

(12-24-2016 03:27 PM)therockets046 Wrote:  It's hard to say it's a bad season when you're 9-4, but yeah, it's tough when you realize you didn't win any games you weren't supposed to win, but did lose a couple games we were supposed to win. Didn't really win any of the close games—except Bowling Green, who kept the game close despite dubious talent & coaching, and NIU, who wasn't a good team, but getting that monkey off our back was arguably the best moment of our season.

Had a great time this season, don't get me wrong; I attended all 13 games and got to see some parts of the country and hang out with some great Rocket fans. Kind of a letdown when you see all the record setting personnel we had to work with this season and a pretty friendly schedule, and 9 wins is all we could get with it, with no championship or bowl win.

True, but all the record setting was by players on the offense, not the defense. If there is lesson that should have been learned over the past 12 years since the last MACC it is that since that time Toledo has fielded a number of teams with good to great units on the offensive side of the ball but except for 2015 very few defensive units that could make comparable contributions to the team's overall success.

(12-24-2016 10:27 PM)T-Town Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 03:27 PM)therockets046 Wrote:  It's hard to say it's a bad season when you're 9-4, but yeah, it's tough when you realize you didn't win any games you weren't supposed to win, but did lose a couple games we were supposed to win. Didn't really win any of the close games—except Bowling Green, who kept the game close despite dubious talent & coaching, and NIU, who wasn't a good team, but getting that monkey off our back was arguably the best moment of our season.

Had a great time this season, don't get me wrong; I attended all 13 games and got to see some parts of the country and hang out with some great Rocket fans. Kind of a letdown when you see all the record setting personnel we had to work with this season and a pretty friendly schedule, and 9 wins is all we could get with it, with no championship or bowl win.

True, but all the record setting was by players on the offense, not the defense. If there is lesson that should have been learned over the past 12 years since the last MACC it is that since that time Toledo has fielded a number of teams with good to great units on the offensive side of the ball but except for 2015 very few defensive units that could make comparable contributions to the team's overall success.

Amen to that.

(12-25-2016 09:35 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 10:27 PM)T-Town Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 03:27 PM)therockets046 Wrote:  It's hard to say it's a bad season when you're 9-4, but yeah, it's tough when you realize you didn't win any games you weren't supposed to win, but did lose a couple games we were supposed to win. Didn't really win any of the close games—except Bowling Green, who kept the game close despite dubious talent & coaching, and NIU, who wasn't a good team, but getting that monkey off our back was arguably the best moment of our season.

Had a great time this season, don't get me wrong; I attended all 13 games and got to see some parts of the country and hang out with some great Rocket fans. Kind of a letdown when you see all the record setting personnel we had to work with this season and a pretty friendly schedule, and 9 wins is all we could get with it, with no championship or bowl win.

True, but all the record setting was by players on the offense, not the defense. If there is lesson that should have been learned over the past 12 years since the last MACC it is that since that time Toledo has fielded a number of teams with good to great units on the offensive side of the ball but except for 2015 very few defensive units that could make comparable contributions to the team's overall success.

Amen to that.

I guess the biggest letdown for me was the defense didn't improve, it's scheme issues were never fixed. Sure there were injuries, but outside leverage isn't a DT assignment. Until we get that fixed we could of had all our players healthy and still had issues.

2016-17:
Record 9-4
Scoring D 25.7(#50) Red Zone D .851(#66) Turnovers Gained 10(#123)
2015-16:
Record 10-2
Scoring D 20.8(#21) Red Zone D.675(#2) Turnovers Gained 22(#43)
2014-15:
Record 9-4
Scoring D 30.5(#90) Red Zone D .867(#107) Turnovers Gained 14(#113)
2013-14:
Record 7-5
Scoring D 28.6(#73) Red Zone D .902(#114) Turnovers Gained 20(#71)
2012-13:
Record 9-4
Scoring D 28.38(#67) Red Zone D .690(#10) Turnovers Gained 27(#25)