Starting to wonder ... while the emphasis on MARCH is understandable, is it really justified. Some really successfull MAC seasons in recent years are all but ignored, while a stretch run in the MAC Tournament suddenly makes some average teams great.

In 2015 Buffalo was 12-6 in MAC play and tied with Central Michigan and Kent for the MAC title ... Buff wins the MAC and two other pretty good teams/seasons are all but forgotten.

2016 Buff is barely .500 in MAC play (10-8), but wins the tourney and finishesh a rather mundane 20-15. Meanwhile MAC champ Akron goes a pretty impressive 26-9 and who cares???

Here's a great case study ... In 2012 Ohio is third in the MAC at 11-5, but rolls in the MAC Tourney and then a NCAA run to finish 29-8.

In 2013 with basically the same team Ohio wins its first MAC title in decades at 14-2, but gets bit in the MAC Tourney at 24-10. Going into the MAC tourney both years Ohio was 24-7 (2012) and 23-8 (2013) almost identical overall ... but much better in '13 for MAC play.

I think Ohio's better 'SEASON' was 2013 ... but the better ENDING was 2012.

My question/problem is have MAC fans completely checked out on the value of the season, over dreaming for the big finish ...

The side note to this is do you want a coach who builds a career on a big finish every few years ... or a coach that consistently plays for conference titles ...

(12-12-2016 11:33 AM)cleveland Wrote:  Starting to wonder ... while the emphasis on MARCH is understandable, is it really justified. Some really successfull MAC seasons in recent years are all but ignored, while a stretch run in the MAC Tournament suddenly makes some average teams great.

In 2015 Buffalo was 12-6 in MAC play and tied with Central Michigan and Kent for the MAC title ... Buff wins the MAC and two other pretty good teams/seasons are all but forgotten.

2016 Buff is barely .500 in MAC play (10-8), but wins the tourney and finishesh a rather mundane 20-15. Meanwhile MAC champ Akron goes a pretty impressive 26-9 and who cares???

Here's a great case study ... In 2012 Ohio is third in the MAC at 11-5, but rolls in the MAC Tourney and then a NCAA run to finish 29-8.

In 2013 with basically the same team Ohio wins its first MAC title in decades at 14-2, but gets bit in the MAC Tourney at 24-10. Going into the MAC tourney both years Ohio was 24-7 (2012) and 23-8 (2013) almost identical overall ... but much better in '13 for MAC play.

I think Ohio's better 'SEASON' was 2013 ... but the better ENDING was 2012.

My question/problem is have MAC fans completely checked out on the value of the season, over dreaming for the big finish ...

The side note to this is do you want a coach who builds a career on a big finish every few years ... or a coach that consistently plays for conference titles ...

They might have checked out but I would argue it's not their fault. The powers that be need to start at least considering rewarding MAC teams that have a great season with an at large bid. I get the one Bid thing when the conference is mediocre to bad. But the past two seasons the MAC has transitioned to the top 1 or 2 mid major conference in the nation That deserves some respect and recalibration from the tournament committee.

Maybe a homer alert here but I really thought CMU who finished 23-8 in 2014-15, won the MAC, and lost in the final to Buffalo was gonna get an at large bid. I can't complain because some conferences are so deep it's not fair to leave them out while others play a very soft schedule. It also sucked because we beat Buffalo twice that season.

I forget the year, but it was during the later Coles era, Miami ended the season with a great resume and a 20ish RPI. The MAC was the #10 conference and Buffalo was also an at large candidate. Neither team was invited and the selection committee's logic for excluding both was that since Miami had the better resume but had lost to Buffalo, they couldn't decide who was more deserving so they decided it was best to not invite either school (or something along those same lines).

In order to be taken more seriously they not only need to start making it past the 1st round of the tourney most often, but they need to play deep into the NIT. Getting knocked out early in the NIT solidifies in peoples minds that the MAC 2nd place team isn't worth an at-large. Akron had an opportunity last year but choked the game away vs a depleted OSU team. Had they won they would have faced Florida at the JAR where they were 15-0 last season and where Reggie, Kretzer, and company were lights out behind the arc.

(12-12-2016 01:09 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  In order to be taken more seriously they not only need to start making it past the 1st round of the tourney most often, but they need to play deep into the NIT. Getting knocked out early in the NIT solidifies in peoples minds that the MAC 2nd place team isn't worth an at-large. Akron had an opportunity last year but choked the game away vs a depleted OSU team. Had they won they would have faced Florida at the JAR where they were 15-0 last season and where Reggie, Kretzer, and company were lights out behind the arc.

NOBODY IS ANSWERING THE ?????

(12-12-2016 04:26 PM)cleveland Wrote:  

(12-12-2016 01:09 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  In order to be taken more seriously they not only need to start making it past the 1st round of the tourney most often, but they need to play deep into the NIT. Getting knocked out early in the NIT solidifies in peoples minds that the MAC 2nd place team isn't worth an at-large. Akron had an opportunity last year but choked the game away vs a depleted OSU team. Had they won they would have faced Florida at the JAR where they were 15-0 last season and where Reggie, Kretzer, and company were lights out behind the arc.

NOBODY IS ANSWERING THE ?????

I don't think this is specific to college basketball, however, the regular season has grown to be pretty meaningless as all MAC teams NCAA tourney hopes always come down to the weekend in Cleveland. All teams and players are measured by postseason success, regardless of sport. People that say Brady is better than Manning and Jordon is better than Kobe/Lebron always point to rings 1st. It's why Oscar Robinson is an afterthought when people name their top 5 or top 10 players of all-time and why Malone is never found on anyone's list. It is why last years Warriors aren't regarded as better than the 95-96 Bulls. I could keep going on.

All questions Toledo fans ask themselves in every sport. We're now sick of the consistency, but not winning titles. 1981 was the last Toledo team to make the tourney? That has to change. At this point I'd rather watch 5 freshman start and suck for 2 seasons, but be dominant in 4 years and win the MAC. Going .500 and beating Akron is getting old. It's subjective to your program though... in MBB I'm sure BG and Miami would take some .500 or so seasons before they get bored and want a MACC.

Winning a road game in BB.

(12-13-2016 05:15 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Winning a road game in BB.

But what about if you're really good at winning at home like 22 wins in a row good?... Asking for a friend

(12-13-2016 05:20 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  

(12-13-2016 05:15 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Winning a road game in BB.

But what about if you're really good at winning at home like 22 wins in a row good?... Asking for a friend

I kinda said that assuming not winning all your games at home.

(12-12-2016 05:54 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  All questions Toledo fans ask themselves in every sport. We're now sick of the consistency, but not winning titles. 1981 was the last Toledo team to make the tourney? That has to change. At this point I'd rather watch 5 freshman start and suck for 2 seasons, but be dominant in 4 years and win the MAC. Going .500 and beating Akron is getting old. It's subjective to your program though... in MBB I'm sure BG and Miami would take some .500 or so seasons before they get bored and want a MACC.

And for the umpteenth time-we have won two MAC titles in men's basketball since 2000. At least one women's title. But I guess you indirectly answered the question.

(12-14-2016 09:20 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-12-2016 05:54 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  All questions Toledo fans ask themselves in every sport. We're now sick of the consistency, but not winning titles. 1981 was the last Toledo team to make the tourney? That has to change. At this point I'd rather watch 5 freshman start and suck for 2 seasons, but be dominant in 4 years and win the MAC. Going .500 and beating Akron is getting old. It's subjective to your program though... in MBB I'm sure BG and Miami would take some .500 or so seasons before they get bored and want a MACC.

And for the umpteenth time-we have won two MAC titles in men's basketball since 2000. At least one women's title. But I guess you indirectly answered the question.

Regular season title's are irrelevant if the prize doesn't get the conference $$$ and exposure. The women's team has a national title, so I'll to that. If teams gained the fanbase like we did for that WNIT title in 2011, they'd be wanting that over a 1 and done blowout in the NCAA's every time. I want an NCAA tourney run next.

(12-15-2016 02:58 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-14-2016 09:20 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-12-2016 05:54 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  All questions Toledo fans ask themselves in every sport. We're now sick of the consistency, but not winning titles. 1981 was the last Toledo team to make the tourney? That has to change. At this point I'd rather watch 5 freshman start and suck for 2 seasons, but be dominant in 4 years and win the MAC. Going .500 and beating Akron is getting old. It's subjective to your program though... in MBB I'm sure BG and Miami would take some .500 or so seasons before they get bored and want a MACC.

And for the umpteenth time-we have won two MAC titles in men's basketball since 2000. At least one women's title. But I guess you indirectly answered the question.

Regular season title's are irrelevant if the prize doesn't get the conference $$$ and exposure. The women's team has a national title, so I'll to that. If teams gained the fanbase like we did for that WNIT title in 2011, they'd be wanting that over a 1 and done blowout in the NCAA's every time. I want an NCAA tourney run next.

Perhaps irrelevant to you. For some odd reason the MAC keeps awarding these "irrelevant" titles and teams keep hanging banners and getting byes based on them. To say Toledo is not winning titles is simply wrong.

(12-12-2016 11:33 AM)cleveland Wrote:  Starting to wonder ... while the emphasis on MARCH is understandable, is it really justified. Some really successfull MAC seasons in recent years are all but ignored, while a stretch run in the MAC Tournament suddenly makes some average teams great.

In 2015 Buffalo was 12-6 in MAC play and tied with Central Michigan and Kent for the MAC title ... Buff wins the MAC and two other pretty good teams/seasons are all but forgotten.

2016 Buff is barely .500 in MAC play (10-8), but wins the tourney and finishesh a rather mundane 20-15. Meanwhile MAC champ Akron goes a pretty impressive 26-9 and who cares???

Here's a great case study ... In 2012 Ohio is third in the MAC at 11-5, but rolls in the MAC Tourney and then a NCAA run to finish 29-8.

In 2013 with basically the same team Ohio wins its first MAC title in decades at 14-2, but gets bit in the MAC Tourney at 24-10. Going into the MAC tourney both years Ohio was 24-7 (2012) and 23-8 (2013) almost identical overall ... but much better in '13 for MAC play.

I think Ohio's better 'SEASON' was 2013 ... but the better ENDING was 2012.

My question/problem is have MAC fans completely checked out on the value of the season, over dreaming for the big finish ...

The side note to this is do you want a coach who builds a career on a big finish every few years ... or a coach that consistently plays for conference titles ...

Depends on the school and program. For BG men's BB, they had a few "on the bubble" teams in the late 1990s, early 2000s, that really should have been in the NCAA (I still remember Dickie V dedicating huge chunks of his time on air during the selection showed complained about BG getting screwed on at least three separate occasions.) Without looking, I believe BG won the regular season MAC championship in 1997 (Daniels' senior year...great team), 2003 (or 2002) (McLeod's senior year, also a great team), and one of the Orr-era teams that wasn't nearly as good. Despite a strong basketball tradition at BG, the men's team hasn't made the tournament since 1968! So, for the men, a regular season championship would qualify as a success, and an NCAA appearance a miracle (though I think Huger has the program on the right path.)

On the women's BB side at BG, anything but a MAC tournament championship is a disappointing year, even if the team won the regular season. Yeah, UT can claim the WNIT championship year as a success (which I think it was), but recency rules the day for the women Falcons. The fact that they have had two losing seasons in a row, and working hard on a 3rd, has probably put Roos on the hot seat. She has had the unenviable task of following objectively the best women's BB coach ever in the MAC in Curt Miller (who now coaches Connecticut in the WNBA), but BG doesn't tolerate losing on the women's side.

That dichotomy between BG's basketball programs is demonstrative in what I mean when I wrote that the definition of success differs depending on the program.

Agree that it depends on the program. There's also multiple check points to measure success for a season. For Ohio-

Regular Season:
- Ohio has finished conference play as a #5 seed or better 7 times in the past 10 seasons. A top 5 seed is now an expectation for the Bobcats, success would be a #1 or #2 seed.

Conference Tournament:
- Given Ohio's expectations for tournament seeding a semifinals appearance is the expectation, winning the tournament is the measure of success.

Post-season Tournaments:
- If Ohio makes it to the NCAA Tournament the expectation is that they will win the rd of 64 game. Success will be winning the rd of 32 game.
- for the NIT making it to the semifinals would be a success, for the rest it would be the finals.

(12-15-2016 08:24 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 02:58 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-14-2016 09:20 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-12-2016 05:54 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  All questions Toledo fans ask themselves in every sport. We're now sick of the consistency, but not winning titles. 1981 was the last Toledo team to make the tourney? That has to change. At this point I'd rather watch 5 freshman start and suck for 2 seasons, but be dominant in 4 years and win the MAC. Going .500 and beating Akron is getting old. It's subjective to your program though... in MBB I'm sure BG and Miami would take some .500 or so seasons before they get bored and want a MACC.

And for the umpteenth time-we have won two MAC titles in men's basketball since 2000. At least one women's title. But I guess you indirectly answered the question.

Regular season title's are irrelevant if the prize doesn't get the conference $$$ and exposure. The women's team has a national title, so I'll to that. If teams gained the fanbase like we did for that WNIT title in 2011, they'd be wanting that over a 1 and done blowout in the NCAA's every time. I want an NCAA tourney run next.

Perhaps irrelevant to you. For some odd reason the MAC keeps awarding these "irrelevant" titles and teams keep hanging banners and getting byes based on them. To say Toledo is not winning titles is simply wrong.

If Toledo went undefeated in the MAC West every year for the next 10 seasons, hung 10 banners, but never made it to the NCAA's would you be happy? I wouldn't. It's an award. Not the reward I want for a nice season.

(12-16-2016 12:23 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 08:24 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-15-2016 02:58 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(12-14-2016 09:20 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-12-2016 05:54 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  All questions Toledo fans ask themselves in every sport. We're now sick of the consistency, but not winning titles. 1981 was the last Toledo team to make the tourney? That has to change. At this point I'd rather watch 5 freshman start and suck for 2 seasons, but be dominant in 4 years and win the MAC. Going .500 and beating Akron is getting old. It's subjective to your program though... in MBB I'm sure BG and Miami would take some .500 or so seasons before they get bored and want a MACC.

And for the umpteenth time-we have won two MAC titles in men's basketball since 2000. At least one women's title. But I guess you indirectly answered the question.

Regular season title's are irrelevant if the prize doesn't get the conference $$$ and exposure. The women's team has a national title, so I'll to that. If teams gained the fanbase like we did for that WNIT title in 2011, they'd be wanting that over a 1 and done blowout in the NCAA's every time. I want an NCAA tourney run next.

Perhaps irrelevant to you. For some odd reason the MAC keeps awarding these "irrelevant" titles and teams keep hanging banners and getting byes based on them. To say Toledo is not winning titles is simply wrong.

If Toledo went undefeated in the MAC West every year for the next 10 seasons, hung 10 banners, but never made it to the NCAA's would you be happy? I wouldn't. It's an award. Not the reward I want for a nice season.

What you want doesn't change the fact that your statement about us failing to win titles is wrong. You're really struggling with acknowledging that, I know. And yes, I'd be happy. I'm pretty much always happy.

At this point really anything short of making the Tourney is a disappointing season for Akron. We've won plenty of regular season titles and have made the MAC Finals enough in the recent past that it really isn't big news anymore.

Winning the NIT wouldn't be a bad consolation prize however.

(12-16-2016 07:11 AM)kreed5120 Wrote:  At this point really anything short of making the Tourney is a disappointing season for Akron. We've won plenty of regular season titles and have made the MAC Finals enough in the recent past that it really isn't big news anymore.

Winning the NIT wouldn't be a bad consolation prize however.

Pretty much all the answers here show just how out of touch we all are when it comes to "success."

At no point did anyone say winning a regular season title was a "success" when that may be the hardest thing of all to do.

Success for just about all is defined by the tournament. A great and fantastic prize to be sure ... but as several teams have proven, just getting hot and winning three games takes care of that.

Much tougher to win 12, 13 or 14 to win a regular season title ... Perhaps if the NIT was a bigger deal that would help ... IDK

Just so disappointing to see good work over the long haul discarded so easily ...

Same thing kind of happening in FB ... How can the No. 1 team in the No. 1 conference in the country not be part of the 4-team playoffs?