Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
For whom should we root
Author Message
Barrett Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,584
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 71
I Root For: Rice, SJS
Location: Houston / River Oaks

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #61
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 12:48 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:29 AM)Barrett Wrote:  I assume good coaching is necessary for a good program; query whether it is sufficient. It's probably closer to being sufficient than financial support is.

The problem with that statement is that we had a 90th+ percentile coach here in Ken Hatfield based on every coaching stop he ever had (and 1994-2001 here, IMO) and that was not sufficient.

Even Ken couldn't sustain when faced with the constant conference downgrade (SWC to WAC16 to WAC8, to TCU leaving for CUSA, etc) and the public commissioning of the McKinsey Study that the industry well-expected was a move by the anti-athletic crowd to "chloroform the Building and Loan".

Continuing the analogy, we need a Harry Bailey to save the day. At least in terms of character, David Bailiff is a pretty good approximation. He needs Sam Wainwright for his assistant, and the defense needs to quit playing like Uncle Billy.

If we could only get Gloria Grahame as head cheerleader, as Donna Reed said at one point, "Who cares?"

I'm giving you a +1 for the extended It's a Wonderful Life analogy. Who's Mr. Potter here? 04-cheers
12-02-2016 01:03 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Rick Gerlach Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,529
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 70
I Root For:
Location:

The Parliament AwardsCrappiesNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #62
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 01:03 AM)Barrett Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:48 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:29 AM)Barrett Wrote:  I assume good coaching is necessary for a good program; query whether it is sufficient. It's probably closer to being sufficient than financial support is.

The problem with that statement is that we had a 90th+ percentile coach here in Ken Hatfield based on every coaching stop he ever had (and 1994-2001 here, IMO) and that was not sufficient.

Even Ken couldn't sustain when faced with the constant conference downgrade (SWC to WAC16 to WAC8, to TCU leaving for CUSA, etc) and the public commissioning of the McKinsey Study that the industry well-expected was a move by the anti-athletic crowd to "chloroform the Building and Loan".

Continuing the analogy, we need a Harry Bailey to save the day. At least in terms of character, David Bailiff is a pretty good approximation. He needs Sam Wainwright for his assistant, and the defense needs to quit playing like Uncle Billy.

If we could only get Gloria Grahame as head cheerleader, as Donna Reed said at one point, "Who cares?"

I'm giving you a +1 for the extended It's a Wonderful Life analogy. Who's Mr. Potter here? 04-cheers

LOL, as Clarence Oddbody said at one point "It's not me!"

I think it's best if that role gets left unfilled. You could take a shot at picking someone, but I don't want anyone coming after me.

If Rick Greenspan were still around, I think you could pass a motion by voice vote.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2016 01:30 AM by Rick Gerlach.)
12-02-2016 01:09 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,843
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #63
RE: For whom should we root
(12-01-2016 11:11 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I don't have the answers, but you said--
"his teams play hard, but they are sloppy and undisciplined, they execute poorly, and they make far too many unforced errors"
Why do YOU think this is? As I said I don't have the answers but I'm curious why you think this is the case

There are two different ways to interpret this question--are you asking why I believe the statement I made to be correct, or are you asking why do I believe that it happens? Are you trying to determine whether the statement is true, or are you trying to determine what are the underlying reasons why it is true?

I will attempt to answer both.

First, as to why I believe it to be true, it's probably an eyeball test as much as anything. If you don't think his teams make an inordinate amount of silly mistakes, then you're probably not going to agree. But I look at the number of times that Rice beats Rice, the number of plays that fail because of poor execution, the number of blown coverages in the secondary, the number of costly kicking game meltdowns, the many clock management issues, the number of times we commit the silly penalty at exactly the worst possible time, and the like, and I see what I described. I can only add that I don't seem to be alone, or even in the minority, with this observation, so I think it holds up.

http://osgsports.sportsblog.com/posts/27...sible.html

The fact that the author considers this "the most Rice way possible" speaks volumes.

Second, as to what causes these things to happen, I kind of think of David Bailiff as COL Keith Davenport in the movie, Twelve O'Clock High. I think he places being liked above instilling the proper discipline and leadership. Like Davenport's pilots, his players love him, but they get chewed up when they go into battle. I don't think we practice as intensely as we should, and I don't think there are negative consequences for making mistakes in practice, and this team plays like a team that doesn't practice very hard. I think part of it may be that thee doesn't seem to be a lot of underlying philosophy beyond we're just going to recruit better and plug better and better people into the same slots until we can beat you. If that's the extent of your philosophy, then being liked may be how you think you get better people to come play for you.

I thought Mensa said a couple of interesting things in his press conference when being introduced at UT. One, he was asked what he learned from David and he said he learned how to love players and the importance of loving your players. Later, he was asked how he planned to deal with the fact that so many players loved Charlie and were unhappy to see him replaced. He said that he and his staff were going to love the players, and not only tell them they loved them but also show that they loved them through spending time with them. But he also said he was going to show that love by working them harder that they have ever been worked before, because winning is hard work and he wanted them to experience and enjoy winning. The first part of that answer is pure David Bailiff. The second part is that hard edge that Mensa has but Bailiff doesn't.

I think you need something of a good cop/bad cop arrangement at the top of a coaching staff, just like a military organization. I think Bailiff was more effective when Mensa was around because Mensa had that hard edge to play bad cop to Bailiff's good cop. I don't think he has had anyone in that role since Mensa left.

Playing for Bailiff is kind of like playing youth soccer in one of those leagues where everybody gets a participation trophy. Players love him, but you don't win football games by handing out participation trophies.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2016 03:51 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-02-2016 01:21 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,843
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #64
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 01:03 AM)Barrett Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:48 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:29 AM)Barrett Wrote:  I assume good coaching is necessary for a good program; query whether it is sufficient. It's probably closer to being sufficient than financial support is.

The problem with that statement is that we had a 90th+ percentile coach here in Ken Hatfield based on every coaching stop he ever had (and 1994-2001 here, IMO) and that was not sufficient.

Even Ken couldn't sustain when faced with the constant conference downgrade (SWC to WAC16 to WAC8, to TCU leaving for CUSA, etc) and the public commissioning of the McKinsey Study that the industry well-expected was a move by the anti-athletic crowd to "chloroform the Building and Loan".

Continuing the analogy, we need a Harry Bailey to save the day. At least in terms of character, David Bailiff is a pretty good approximation. He needs Sam Wainwright for his assistant, and the defense needs to quit playing like Uncle Billy.

If we could only get Gloria Grahame as head cheerleader, as Donna Reed said at one point, "Who cares?"

I'm giving you a +1 for the extended It's a Wonderful Life analogy. Who's Mr. Potter here? 04-cheers

Todd Graham
12-02-2016 01:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,843
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #65
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 12:38 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  If you're saying that David Bailiff can't win more than 3 to 5 games without a decent level of talent, as OwlNumbers has posted,

I posted that????
12-02-2016 02:20 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Rick Gerlach Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,529
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 70
I Root For:
Location:

The Parliament AwardsCrappiesNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #66
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 02:20 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:38 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  If you're saying that David Bailiff can't win more than 3 to 5 games without a decent level of talent, as OwlNumbers has posted,

I posted that????

No, not exactly, but you've said David Bailiff relies on 'out-talenting' the other team to win (i.e., you say he tries to do the same thing everyone else does, but recruit better)

Given that he has not won more than 5 games except when his team has out-talented the schedule, that supposition that he needs talented players to win more than 5 games kind of follows.

I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just worded slightly differently. I've said David is an average coach. When his talent level is good, he has a winning record. When not as good, he hasn't.

College football wins and losses are a zero sum game. Over-time an average record would be 6-6. You need something to push your team to the right of the bell curve. Historically, Rice's better teams have had better talent, either NFL caliber or all-conference. Historically the biggest factor for Rice has been player talent.

Ray Alborn had a 2-year run of pretty good to average play (1980-81). Coincidentally, he had more talent on those 2 teams. The other 4 years he coached here he won a total of 4 games. Same coach.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2016 02:37 AM by Rick Gerlach.)
12-02-2016 02:35 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
illiniowl Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,162
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 77
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #67
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 01:09 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 01:03 AM)Barrett Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:48 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:29 AM)Barrett Wrote:  I assume good coaching is necessary for a good program; query whether it is sufficient. It's probably closer to being sufficient than financial support is.

The problem with that statement is that we had a 90th+ percentile coach here in Ken Hatfield based on every coaching stop he ever had (and 1994-2001 here, IMO) and that was not sufficient.

Even Ken couldn't sustain when faced with the constant conference downgrade (SWC to WAC16 to WAC8, to TCU leaving for CUSA, etc) and the public commissioning of the McKinsey Study that the industry well-expected was a move by the anti-athletic crowd to "chloroform the Building and Loan".

Continuing the analogy, we need a Harry Bailey to save the day. At least in terms of character, David Bailiff is a pretty good approximation. He needs Sam Wainwright for his assistant, and the defense needs to quit playing like Uncle Billy.

If we could only get Gloria Grahame as head cheerleader, as Donna Reed said at one point, "Who cares?"

I'm giving you a +1 for the extended It's a Wonderful Life analogy. Who's Mr. Potter here? 04-cheers

LOL, as Clarence Oddbody said at one point "It's not me!"

I think it's best if that role gets left unfilled. You could take a shot at picking someone, but I don't want anyone coming after me.

If Rick Greenspan were still around, I think you could pass a motion by voice vote.

Another +1 from me! And how seasonally appropriate too!

My only quibble is that I think Sam Wainwright is the guy Rice needs to save the day. All Harry did was organize a relatively small fundraiser to replace the money George had to use out of his own pocket to keep the Building and Loan open until close of business on Christmas Eve. That merely puts Bailey Bros. B&L back on the same rickety legs it was before.

No matter how good a manager George might be - and there were differences of opinion about that; many liked him, but Potter thought he took too many risks on "garlic eaters," and some townspeople were so unnerved they asked to withdraw all their money and close their accounts - at the end of the day despite his best efforts BBB&L was still just a "penny-ante" operation and one small misfortune away from disaster. Given the economics of Bedford Falls, it just could never take off, and not even whiz kid Harry Bailey, had he stuck around, could have altered that reality.

Sam Wainwright - as Phil Knight did for Oregon, or John Arrillaga did for Stanford, or T. Boone Pickens for Oklahoma State, etc. - gives a mega-donation of $25,000 that not only is enough to make the Baileys whole, and replace the money Uncle Billy lost, but is enough to remove all doubt about solvency and viability and presumably secures the Building and Loan's future for years to come.

The suggestion of Greenspan as Mr. Potter brings to mind the classic SNL sketch:



12-02-2016 02:39 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Rick Gerlach Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,529
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 70
I Root For:
Location:

The Parliament AwardsCrappiesNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #68
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 02:39 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 01:09 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 01:03 AM)Barrett Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:48 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:29 AM)Barrett Wrote:  I assume good coaching is necessary for a good program; query whether it is sufficient. It's probably closer to being sufficient than financial support is.

The problem with that statement is that we had a 90th+ percentile coach here in Ken Hatfield based on every coaching stop he ever had (and 1994-2001 here, IMO) and that was not sufficient.

Even Ken couldn't sustain when faced with the constant conference downgrade (SWC to WAC16 to WAC8, to TCU leaving for CUSA, etc) and the public commissioning of the McKinsey Study that the industry well-expected was a move by the anti-athletic crowd to "chloroform the Building and Loan".

Continuing the analogy, we need a Harry Bailey to save the day. At least in terms of character, David Bailiff is a pretty good approximation. He needs Sam Wainwright for his assistant, and the defense needs to quit playing like Uncle Billy.

If we could only get Gloria Grahame as head cheerleader, as Donna Reed said at one point, "Who cares?"

I'm giving you a +1 for the extended It's a Wonderful Life analogy. Who's Mr. Potter here? 04-cheers

LOL, as Clarence Oddbody said at one point "It's not me!"

I think it's best if that role gets left unfilled. You could take a shot at picking someone, but I don't want anyone coming after me.

If Rick Greenspan were still around, I think you could pass a motion by voice vote.

Another +1 from me! And how seasonally appropriate too!

My only quibble is that I think Sam Wainwright is the guy Rice needs to save the day. All Harry did was organize a relatively small fundraiser to replace the money George had to use out of his own pocket to keep the Building and Loan open until close of business on Christmas Eve. That merely puts Bailey Bros. B&L back on the same rickety legs it was before.

No matter how good a manager George might be - and there were differences of opinion about that; many liked him, but Potter thought he took too many risks on "garlic eaters," and some townspeople were so unnerved they asked to withdraw all their money and close their accounts - at the end of the day despite his best efforts BBB&L was still just a "penny-ante" operation and one small misfortune away from disaster. Given the economics of Bedford Falls, it just could never take off, and not even whiz kid Harry Bailey, had he stuck around, could have altered that reality.

Sam Wainwright - as Phil Knight did for Oregon, or John Arrillaga did for Stanford, or T. Boone Pickens for Oklahoma State, etc. - gives a mega-donation of $25,000 that not only is enough to make the Baileys whole, and replace the money Uncle Billy lost, but is enough to remove all doubt about solvency and viability and presumably secures the Building and Loan's future for years to come.

The suggestion of Greenspan as Mr. Potter brings to mind the classic SNL sketch:




LOL - nice.

But Bedford Falls (Rice), never turned into Pottersville (Baylor's current affairs) as a result of George's efforts.

Is Brian Patterson = Sam Wainwright?

edit-
If George Bailey is David Bailiff, then Harry Bailey must be Tom Herman (who escaped Bedford Falls for a better job in research (Ohio State and U. of H.) and eventually became a war hero, winning the Congressional Medal of Honor (a P5 head coaching job) and eating with the President (liberal Harry Truman = U.T.).

(Technically it was Mary Bailey and Mr. Gower who did the fund raising, (and Mr. Martini even broke the juke box) to cover the money Uncle Billy lost (you correctly identify the reason needed to raise $8,000 later). George covered the run on the Building and Loan with his honeymoon stash earlier in the film, during the Depression. So much for feeling like a 'Bootlegger's Wife'.)
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2016 03:14 AM by Rick Gerlach.)
12-02-2016 02:51 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,843
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #69
RE: For whom should we root
Here is something that I wonder about. One problem we seem to have is that we didn't get the recruiting spike that might have been expected off our conference championship and three straight bowl games. In 2014, David Sloan took over as recruiting coordinator. That seems like a curious move to me. To be clear, this isn't meant as a negative comment about Sloan. I think he's one of the better coaches on the staff, I think the performance of our tight ends reflects that, and among the options available on this staff he would probably be my choice as OC. But recruiting coordinator just seems like a bad fit. Usually, you think of a recruiting coordinator as someone who is well connected with the Texas HS coaches, particularly if you intend to recruit almost exclusively in Texas. Sloan was playing in the NFL instead of coaching HS ball.

Before Sloan it was Billy Lynch, who also doesn't have Texas HS connections. Actually, there aren't a lot of Texas HS connections on the staff as a whole. Seems sort of strange given the focus on recruiting Texas. I'm not sure to what extent this might have a negative impact on recruiting, but I can see the possibility.
12-02-2016 03:42 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,843
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #70
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 02:35 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 02:20 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:38 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  If you're saying that David Bailiff can't win more than 3 to 5 games without a decent level of talent, as OwlNumbers has posted,
I posted that????
No, not exactly, but you've said David Bailiff relies on 'out-talenting' the other team to win (i.e., you say he tries to do the same thing everyone else does, but recruit better)
Given that he has not won more than 5 games except when his team has out-talented the schedule, that supposition that he needs talented players to win more than 5 games kind of follows.
I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just worded slightly differently. I've said David is an average coach. When his talent level is good, he has a winning record. When not as good, he hasn't.
College football wins and losses are a zero sum game. Over-time an average record would be 6-6. You need something to push your team to the right of the bell curve. Historically, Rice's better teams have had better talent, either NFL caliber or all-conference. Historically the biggest factor for Rice has been player talent.
Ray Alborn had a 2-year run of pretty good to average play (1980-81). Coincidentally, he had more talent on those 2 teams. The other 4 years he coached here he won a total of 4 games. Same coach.

I think it's more than worded slightly differently. I think you're taking some pretty serious liberties with what I wrote. But at least I understand where you are coming from now.
12-02-2016 04:00 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Minnewaska Owl Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 315
Joined: Feb 2015
Reputation: 19
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:
Post: #71
RE: For whom should we root
(12-01-2016 08:00 PM)owl40 Wrote:  
(12-01-2016 06:39 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-01-2016 06:31 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  I don't know for sure what influenced JK's decision, but I heard that the big money football guys, Patterson, Wagner, etc. pushed JK for Bailiff to stay. The decision surprised even big time supporters.

That says a lot. Apparently even Rice is subject to the whims of big donors. And I honestly don't know if that's good or bad...

I think it is not just larger donors but also current and former players. Not sure how much/if any that played into the calculus. They also wrote letter to JK.

I have talked to many in that group and they believe problems are structural, funding, administration, JK, etc. They think DB is amazing for sticking in there and being a loyal, stand-up guy when most would have bailed (and they say he has had multiple opportunities to do just that). They believe contrary to all/most here that if Rice were to give DB the resources to match the ambition to be Top-25, he is the guy. One has to assume that people writing big checks combined with people that have played for DB, know football, are emotionally invested in Rice football, etc. would have insights on what the problems are. Their voice has to be louder than the voices on Parliament given their direct experience.

As has been debated on other threads, I think the pro's are: Save $ on buyout, people who played say keep, people who write big checks say keep, no obvious choice waiting in the wings (opportunity cost), and all the good things he does other than win/lose FB games. The cons are well documented here as every thread on Parliament manages a pivot on why DB should not be here.

In absence of someone funding buyout...what do you do if you are JK?

He takes this rational, middle ground, measured approach of some changes but not changing the head coach. He ends-up making everyone unhappy as Rice is so polarized and entrenched on their 'keep' or 'fire' mindset. Making a choice will alienate half of the crowd. Thus, you can't/won't make that decision of 'keep and let him do his thing, with my support' or 'fire..going in different direction' Irony is that the fence sitting approach ends-up alienating both audiences and potentially worse-off for your own personal reputation in the job. Big bet for JK that new assistants, new schemes, etc. with same HC will deliver better results.

Thanks. I appreciate the feedback. You've pointed out some behind-the-scenes issues that I was not aware of. In the end, I'm still more of a "time to make a change" guy regarding the Bailiff situation. But, after reading your post, I'm feeling better about my decision to still give my full support to the program and Rice sports in general.
12-02-2016 12:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
illiniowl Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,162
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 77
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #72
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 02:51 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 02:39 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 01:09 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 01:03 AM)Barrett Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:48 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  The problem with that statement is that we had a 90th+ percentile coach here in Ken Hatfield based on every coaching stop he ever had (and 1994-2001 here, IMO) and that was not sufficient.

Even Ken couldn't sustain when faced with the constant conference downgrade (SWC to WAC16 to WAC8, to TCU leaving for CUSA, etc) and the public commissioning of the McKinsey Study that the industry well-expected was a move by the anti-athletic crowd to "chloroform the Building and Loan".

Continuing the analogy, we need a Harry Bailey to save the day. At least in terms of character, David Bailiff is a pretty good approximation. He needs Sam Wainwright for his assistant, and the defense needs to quit playing like Uncle Billy.

If we could only get Gloria Grahame as head cheerleader, as Donna Reed said at one point, "Who cares?"

I'm giving you a +1 for the extended It's a Wonderful Life analogy. Who's Mr. Potter here? 04-cheers

LOL, as Clarence Oddbody said at one point "It's not me!"

I think it's best if that role gets left unfilled. You could take a shot at picking someone, but I don't want anyone coming after me.

If Rick Greenspan were still around, I think you could pass a motion by voice vote.

Another +1 from me! And how seasonally appropriate too!

My only quibble is that I think Sam Wainwright is the guy Rice needs to save the day. All Harry did was organize a relatively small fundraiser to replace the money George had to use out of his own pocket to keep the Building and Loan open until close of business on Christmas Eve. That merely puts Bailey Bros. B&L back on the same rickety legs it was before.

No matter how good a manager George might be - and there were differences of opinion about that; many liked him, but Potter thought he took too many risks on "garlic eaters," and some townspeople were so unnerved they asked to withdraw all their money and close their accounts - at the end of the day despite his best efforts BBB&L was still just a "penny-ante" operation and one small misfortune away from disaster. Given the economics of Bedford Falls, it just could never take off, and not even whiz kid Harry Bailey, had he stuck around, could have altered that reality.

Sam Wainwright - as Phil Knight did for Oregon, or John Arrillaga did for Stanford, or T. Boone Pickens for Oklahoma State, etc. - gives a mega-donation of $25,000 that not only is enough to make the Baileys whole, and replace the money Uncle Billy lost, but is enough to remove all doubt about solvency and viability and presumably secures the Building and Loan's future for years to come.

The suggestion of Greenspan as Mr. Potter brings to mind the classic SNL sketch:




LOL - nice.

But Bedford Falls (Rice), never turned into Pottersville (Baylor's current affairs) as a result of George's efforts.

Is Brian Patterson = Sam Wainwright?

edit-
If George Bailey is David Bailiff, then Harry Bailey must be Tom Herman (who escaped Bedford Falls for a better job in research (Ohio State and U. of H.) and eventually became a war hero, winning the Congressional Medal of Honor (a P5 head coaching job) and eating with the President (liberal Harry Truman = U.T.).

(Technically it was Mary Bailey and Mr. Gower who did the fund raising, (and Mr. Martini even broke the juke box) to cover the money Uncle Billy lost (you correctly identify the reason needed to raise $8,000 later). George covered the run on the Building and Loan with his honeymoon stash earlier in the film, during the Depression. So much for feeling like a 'Bootlegger's Wife'.)

Ah, you are correct, the bank run came earlier - looks like I may need to pull the DVD off the shelf and watch it again!

Bedford Falls = CUSA and BBB&L = Rice. No matter who we ever get to run the store here, whether it's George Bailey/David Bailiff (both of whom had more loyalty to longtime assistants of questionable competence (Uncle Billy/take your pick) than warranted*) or even whiz kid Harry Bailey (yes, Tom Herman in our wildest dreams - great call on that one), we will still be a penny ante building and loan as long as we remain in Bedford Falls. (Brian Patterson, with all due gratitude, has only replaced the lost $8,000 and staved off the bank examiner IMO.)

Now maybe that is good enough for some people but did we not once dream of seeing the world and lassoing the moon? (Someone once made a quite a famous speech about effectively lassoing the moon in our very stadium.) Why shouldn't BBB&L aspire to become Chase Manhattan or Wells Fargo? After all, we come from a family with a Congressional Medal of Honor winner and we have a friend who became a plastics magnate (peer institutions like Vanderbilt, Northwestern, etc.). We belong in New York (like another of our talented friends, Violet Bick), not Bedford Falls.

For BBB&L to go national, it needs not only a good manager but a major investment by a Sam Wainwright. Both good coaching and good G5-level resources/facilities are necessary but neither - even if you upgrade "good" to "excellent" (i.e., moving those factors all the way to the right) - is sufficient alone to get to P5. The gap is too large.

Willing and able billionaire angel investors being in short supply among Rice alums apparently, the part of Sam Wainwright in my opinion is going to have to be played by the Rice BOT. We need a major, last-ditch, herculean investment with the explicit goal of making it back to P5 within 10 years. If we make it, the investment will be paid back over time with P5-level revenue and increased visibility/prestige for Rice as a whole; if we don't make it, we drop to D-III, join our peers in the UAA, and the savings from no longer having to subsidize a D-I program will pay back the investment over time as well.

* Now, George Bailey was also offered the equivalent of a P5 job by Potter because he was doing so well stealing Potter's rent-paying customer base and turning them into homeowners; whether David Bailiff has ever drawn similar offers seems to be a matter of debate, with his players believing he has, and many posters here being skeptical.
12-02-2016 12:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Barrett Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,584
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 71
I Root For: Rice, SJS
Location: Houston / River Oaks

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #73
RE: For whom should we root
I feel like Rice is like George and Mary doing the Charleston while the dance floor opens up beneath them. Everybody who's paying attention sees that they're going to fall into the swimming pool below. They, however, are completely oblivious to it.

Also: George Bailey's bad ear is like Rice's athletic budget, bleeding from being hit by Mr. Gower the druggist (CUSA TV contracts).

That glass window in the old house that George broke with a rock as he made a wish is my interest in Rice football next year.

The teacher that sent Zuzu home without a jacket, resulting in Zuzu getting sick--her husband who punches George Bailey at Martini's is Stanford's football team at HRS next year.

Oh, I could keep going . . .
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2016 01:41 PM by Barrett.)
12-02-2016 01:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Brookes Owl Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,965
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 165
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:

The Parliament AwardsCrappiesDonators
Post: #74
RE: For whom should we root
(12-01-2016 10:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2016 08:00 PM)owl40 Wrote:  They believe contrary to all/most here that if Rice were to give DB the resources to match the ambition to be Top-25, he is the guy.

I really wish somebody could explain this to me. I really don't see how in the world anybody could reach that conclusion. I really don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that he could do it. I'd really like to know the basis upon which anyone could believe that he can.

I get that he doesn't have the support that he needs to get there now. But failing when you don't have the support does not mean that you would succeed if you did have it. He's a nice guy, his teams play hard, but they are sloppy and undisciplined, they execute poorly, and they make far too many unforced errors. Give him Texas's talent and they would still be sloppy and undisciplined, and execute poorly, and make too many unforced errors.

My first response to your question is a cop-out: If smart successful former athletes like Brian Patterson, who I'm sure has spent a fair amount of time with the HC, think Bailiff can be the right guy, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I guess the premise is that the HC is a CEO-type coach and has been masterful at interacting with the administrative/academic side of Rice and has had enough success to demonstrate that he's capable of having good seasons. Unfortunately, he's been forced to shop for coaches at the 99ยข Store and those guys tend to have significant flaws in approach/knowledge/experience. If Bailiff is not going to be hands-on in practice (we've heard this from at least one former player) but is still seen as an excellent manager, the gap is assistant coaching.

Of course, with this premise retaining Bailiff means we only get better if somebody's going to pony up some dough for better coaches. Maybe that's where the buyout money goes?

The silver(ish?) lining I'm trying to see here is there's a good chance the AD isn't making a decision because some anti-athletics admin weenies want us to drop football or go NAIA or other such nonsense. But if we don't increase asst coach salaries and we hire a couple of cheap guys to replace Thurmond and Hoefer (and change little to nothing about the offense), I'm not sure what the point is. And another of my speculative posts goes down the drain.

ETA: Barrett is cracking me up.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2016 01:57 PM by Brookes Owl.)
12-02-2016 01:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,843
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #75
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 01:55 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-01-2016 10:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2016 08:00 PM)owl40 Wrote:  They believe contrary to all/most here that if Rice were to give DB the resources to match the ambition to be Top-25, he is the guy.
I really wish somebody could explain this to me. I really don't see how in the world anybody could reach that conclusion. I really don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that he could do it. I'd really like to know the basis upon which anyone could believe that he can.
I get that he doesn't have the support that he needs to get there now. But failing when you don't have the support does not mean that you would succeed if you did have it. He's a nice guy, his teams play hard, but they are sloppy and undisciplined, they execute poorly, and they make far too many unforced errors. Give him Texas's talent and they would still be sloppy and undisciplined, and execute poorly, and make too many unforced errors.
My first response to your question is a cop-out: If smart successful former athletes like Brian Patterson, who I'm sure has spent a fair amount of time with the HC, think Bailiff can be the right guy, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think it's a cop-out at all. In fact, I think you provoke a very valid and relevant and important question. It's one I've asked myself many times--why are former players in particular so strongly behind Bailiff?

I haven't talked to Brian or Brett Wagner in quite some time. I'd actually like to get a more updated perspective from them. I have spoken extensively with others who are, I believe, in that group, and I can tell you what they've said.

Basically, the argument is that Bailiff is up against an impossible situation and there is no way anybody can succeed against those odds. He is seen as a veritable saint for soldiering on under impossible conditions.

I have a couple of problems with that.

1) The fact that David has had a couple of good years under those conditions, along with more than a couple of absolute stinkers, resulting in an overall record below .500, does not seem to suggest that if the conditions were improved he would be successful in building a consistent winner. The fact that he hasn't build a consistent winning program under bad conditions does not imply that he would under good conditions. In particular, I think the aspects that I have mentioned--sloppy play, poor execution, ill discipline, and lots of unforced errors--would limit dramatically what could be accomplished. When I mention these things to those with whom I have spoken, the standard answer is, "You may be right." That doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence. I will add one thing, most of the former players with whom I've spoken are people who have known me for a long time, and they are well aware that David Bailiff is far from the first Rice coach against whom I have raised these questions.

2) If conditions are truly impossible, I don't want somebody who will soldier on. I want somebody like Todd Graham who will jump the chain of command, if necessary, to go explain to David Leebron what needs to be done. If conditions are as bad as claimed, then we need a bull in the china shop.

I guess I have two questions for them:

1) I get that David has not succeeded in establishing a consistent winner in a situation where he does not have the necessary support and assets. How does that establish that he would build that winner if he did have that support?

2) How much have you been willing to come out of pocket to get him that support?
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2016 04:40 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-02-2016 04:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
75src Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,591
Joined: Mar 2009
Reputation: 25
I Root For: Rice
Location:
Post: #76
RE: For whom should we root
We need a recruiting coordinator who already knows all the top Texas HS coaches such as bringing on one of those coaches.

Baliff is probably the not coach who can bring us back but whatever we do the institutional barriers to improvement need to be removed. You have said before that it was good to get Todd for one season to shake up things but it was also good that we only had Todd for one season.

(12-02-2016 03:42 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here is something that I wonder about. One problem we seem to have is that we didn't get the recruiting spike that might have been expected off our conference championship and three straight bowl games. In 2014, David Sloan took over as recruiting coordinator. That seems like a curious move to me. To be clear, this isn't meant as a negative comment about Sloan. I think he's one of the better coaches on the staff, I think the performance of our tight ends reflects that, and among the options available on this staff he would probably be my choice as OC. But recruiting coordinator just seems like a bad fit. Usually, you think of a recruiting coordinator as someone who is well connected with the Texas HS coaches, particularly if you intend to recruit almost exclusively in Texas. Sloan was playing in the NFL instead of coaching HS ball.

Before Sloan it was Billy Lynch, who also doesn't have Texas HS connections. Actually, there aren't a lot of Texas HS connections on the staff as a whole. Seems sort of strange given the focus on recruiting Texas. I'm not sure to what extent this might have a negative impact on recruiting, but I can see the possibility.
12-02-2016 04:45 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Ranger Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 10,021
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 48
I Root For: SOF/Owl Basebal
Location:
Post: #77
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 04:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 01:55 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-01-2016 10:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-01-2016 08:00 PM)owl40 Wrote:  They believe contrary to all/most here that if Rice were to give DB the resources to match the ambition to be Top-25, he is the guy.
I really wish somebody could explain this to me. I really don't see how in the world anybody could reach that conclusion. I really don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that he could do it. I'd really like to know the basis upon which anyone could believe that he can.
I get that he doesn't have the support that he needs to get there now. But failing when you don't have the support does not mean that you would succeed if you did have it. He's a nice guy, his teams play hard, but they are sloppy and undisciplined, they execute poorly, and they make far too many unforced errors. Give him Texas's talent and they would still be sloppy and undisciplined, and execute poorly, and make too many unforced errors.
My first response to your question is a cop-out: If smart successful former athletes like Brian Patterson, who I'm sure has spent a fair amount of time with the HC, think Bailiff can be the right guy, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think it's a cop-out at all. In fact, I think you provoke a very valid and relevant and important question. It's one I've asked myself many times--why are former players in particular so strongly behind Bailiff?

I haven't talked to Brian or Brett Wagner in quite some time. I'd actually like to get a more updated perspective from them. I have spoken extensively with others who are, I believe, in that group, and I can tell you what they've said.

Basically, the argument is that Bailiff is up against an impossible situation and there is no way anybody can succeed against those odds. He is seen as a veritable saint for soldiering on under impossible conditions.

I have a couple of problems with that.

1) The fact that David has had a couple of good years under those conditions, along with more than a couple of absolute stinkers, resulting in an overall record below .500, does not seem to suggest that if the conditions were improved he would be successful in building a consistent winner. The fact that he hasn't build a consistent winning program under bad conditions does not imply that he would under good conditions. In particular, I think the aspects that I have mentioned--sloppy play, poor execution, ill discipline, and lots of unforced errors--would limit dramatically what could be accomplished. When I mention these things to those with whom I have spoken, the standard answer is, "You may be right." That doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence. I will add one thing, most of the former players with whom I've spoken are people who have known me for a long time, and they are well aware that David Bailiff is far from the first Rice coach against whom I have raised these questions.

2) If conditions are truly impossible, I don't want somebody who will soldier on. I want somebody like Todd Graham who will jump the chain of command, if necessary, to go explain to David Leebron what needs to be done. If conditions are as bad as claimed, then we need a bull in the china shop.

I guess I have two questions for them:

1) I get that David has not succeeded in establishing a consistent winner in a situation where he does not have the necessary support and assets. How does that establish that he would build that winner if he did have that support?

2) How much have you been willing to come out of pocket to get him that support?

If the situation is really impossible, we should drop football. Rice should not tolerate mediocrity or worse, and if the situation is impossible, it will be difficult to achieve even mediocrity.

We could use that money for improving our other teams or for academic purposes.
12-02-2016 04:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Brookes Owl Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,965
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 165
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:

The Parliament AwardsCrappiesDonators
Post: #78
RE: For whom should we root
(12-02-2016 04:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  2) How much have you been willing to come out of pocket to get him that support?

And if the answer is anything less than a **** load, none of the other stuff matters.
12-02-2016 05:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread:


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.