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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #2091
RE: Trump Administration
(Today 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  It always amazes me that intelligent people will buy this hook, line, and sinker.

I long ago ceased to be surprised by the delusions of supposedly intelligent people. The "intelligent" classes in the West spent over 70 years making excuses for the savagery and terror of communism ("It's a good theory, it was just mis-applied"), and depressingly many still do.

To be clear, I have only ceased to be surprised; I have not ceased to be discouraged by it.

A recent book review (of sorts) hits the nail on the head: "It was not a good idea that somehow went wrong or withered away. It was a very bad idea from the outset, and one forced into life — or the life of the undead — with barely imaginable self-righteousness, pedantry, dynamism, and horror." See https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/16/books...ution.html
Today 09:21 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #2092
RE: Trump Administration
(Yesterday 07:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(Yesterday 02:25 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-21-2017 08:36 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  ... almost all the entrepeneurs and small business people I know, other than my chiropractor, are Dems...
That might be chiefly because you live in Austin. There is a lot of pressure to conform in that city. It may be the most conformist place I have ever lived or worked.

FWIW, almost all the entrepreneurs and small business people I know are conservatives. Of course, I don't live in Austin.

I wouldn't argue with George's point about Austin being conformist, as are many cities with a dominant culture. I found Houston that way when I first moved back there after Austin. But maybe I just fit better in Austin than Houston so I was "pre-conforming" more to the former.

Anyway, my point is not that most MBAs or most entrepenuers are left-leaning - it was refuting this idea that "the left" has this contempt for entrepenuers and small businesses. A (very liberal) friend of mine this past weekend announced he's starting his own small business. The reaction from his friends, mostly very liberal, was not "What? You are a deplorable now! Why don't you move to College Station?" It was "Congratulations! Good luck!"

And back to the conformism bit - I'm not sure any aspect of Austin is more conformist than the almost religious loyalty to small local businesses. People who are going out of their way to support small businesses can't very well also hold them in contempt.


(Also, I was referring to people I know pretty well and with whom I have had quad like discussions - it's not conformism, they simply have a different outlook on these issues.)
(This post was last modified: Today 01:12 PM by JustAnotherAustinOwl.)
Today 01:03 PM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #2093
RE: Trump Administration
(10-21-2017 10:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't think I've ever heard anyone take it to mean, "Obama said I didn't work hard and he disrespected me." I don't think anyone takes it that personally. I think the message, "Obama is too collectivist for my taste," is sufficient to support any and all of the opposition that I've seen and heard, here or elsewhere.

That was the whole point - Romney had incensed "small business people" at his rallies holding signs saying "Yes I did build this!" and giving interviews about how personally insulted they were.

And I don't know what the point of OO's posts about Lad and I not being in court with him and signing the loan, etc. are if not to imply some sort of lack of respect for his hard work.

Anyway, I'm going to try and retire from this subject again. I can't believe the bandwith we've all spent on an issue from the 2012 election. An intervention may be warranted. :-)
Today 01:11 PM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #2094
RE: Trump Administration
Stealing from a friend's facebook page:

"The President of the United States is now publicly accusing the widow of a soldier killed in action of lying about how awesome his condolence call to her was."

This whole episode is so strange and so many own goals. Trump denies the original story. Kelly more or less confirms it, trump tweets a denial again the next day. Kelly, as a decorated veteran and gold star father probably could have put it to bed, but instead adds some ad hominem attacks on the Dem rep involved. That turned out to be fabricated. And he adds some weird out of context culture war commentary. And the White House's official line when Kelly's lies are caught is "don't question a four star general?"

And I left out the part where Trump lied about Obama (and Bush) not calling families. And the part where after Trump claimed he was calling almost all families, the WH scrambled to get a list so he could call them.
Today 01:24 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #2095
RE: Trump Administration
(Today 01:03 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  I wouldn't argue with George's point about Austin being conformist, as are many cities with a dominant culture. I found Houston that way when I first moved back there after Austin. But maybe I just fit better in Austin than Houston so I was "pre-conforming" more to the former.

The level of conformism in the two cities is not even close to comparable. Austin is one of the most conformist places in the country. It obviously has many positive qualities, but that is not one of them.

(Today 01:03 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  (Also, I was referring to people I know pretty well and with whom I have had quad like discussions - it's not conformism, they simply have a different outlook on these issues.)

I understand that. But I suspect that one reason your sample turned up nothing but declared Democrats is, in addition to the natural tendency of people to select friends who are similar to themselves, the extreme social pressure in Austin to publicly identify as a Democrat.
(This post was last modified: Today 01:30 PM by georgewebb.)
Today 01:24 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #2096
RE: Trump Administration
(Today 01:03 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(Yesterday 07:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(Yesterday 02:25 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-21-2017 08:36 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  ... almost all the entrepeneurs and small business people I know, other than my chiropractor, are Dems...
That might be chiefly because you live in Austin. There is a lot of pressure to conform in that city. It may be the most conformist place I have ever lived or worked.

FWIW, almost all the entrepreneurs and small business people I know are conservatives. Of course, I don't live in Austin.

I wouldn't argue with George's point about Austin being conformist, as are many cities with a dominant culture. I found Houston that way when I first moved back there after Austin. But maybe I just fit better in Austin than Houston so I was "pre-conforming" more to the former.

Anyway, my point is not that most MBAs or most entrepenuers are left-leaning - it was refuting this idea that "the left" has this contempt for entrepenuers and small businesses. A (very liberal) friend of mine this past weekend announced he's starting his own small business. The reaction from his friends, mostly very liberal, was not "What? You are a deplorable now! Why don't you move to College Station?" It was "Congratulations! Good luck!"

And back to the conformism bit - I'm not sure any aspect of Austin is more conformist than the almost religious loyalty to small local businesses. People who are going out of their way to support small businesses can't very well also hold them in contempt.


(Also, I was referring to people I know pretty well and with whom I have had quad like discussions - it's not conformism, they simply have a different outlook on these issues.)

I don't know anything about Austin except it has a great music scene, a lot of politicians, and a lot of arrogant students at "The University".

I live in a rural area, but a lot of my social life is in the DFW area, the Metroplex. Usually politics are not discussed, but sometimes somebody brings it up and when they do the reactions are overwhelmingly conservative.

The people I am talking about are generally contractors of one sort or another or retired. One lady who is vociferously pro-trump is an independent insurance agent. They all seem to agree that NFL players should stand for the Anthem and a tax cut is a good thing. This from a mix of black, white, Hispanic and Asian men and women. It includes one Muslim (legal) immigrant from Iran.

While not everybody is a right winger and not everybody, right or left, likes Trump, I cannot think of a single person as far left as you seem think is the norm. Maybe they are there and they just keep their opinions to themselves, exactly as I would do if I lived in Austin.
Today 03:00 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #2097
RE: Trump Administration
(Today 01:11 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(10-21-2017 10:17 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't think I've ever heard anyone take it to mean, "Obama said I didn't work hard and he disrespected me." I don't think anyone takes it that personally. I think the message, "Obama is too collectivist for my taste," is sufficient to support any and all of the opposition that I've seen and heard, here or elsewhere.

That was the whole point - Romney had incensed "small business people" at his rallies holding signs saying "Yes I did build this!" and giving interviews about how personally insulted they were.

And I don't know what the point of OO's posts about Lad and I not being in court with him and signing the loan, etc. are if not to imply some sort of lack of respect for his hard work.

Anyway, I'm going to try and retire from this subject again. I can't believe the bandwith we've all spent on an issue from the 2012 election. An intervention may be warranted. :-)

You just don't get it, do you?

yeah, I built it, and yeah, I had help, but not from the people insisting "I didn't build it".

If we are retiring from old issues, I expect to never see the word "birther" again. OK?
Today 03:03 PM
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ausowl Offline
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Post: #2098
RE: Trump Administration
(Today 01:24 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(Today 01:03 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  I wouldn't argue with George's point about Austin being conformist, as are many cities with a dominant culture. I found Houston that way when I first moved back there after Austin. But maybe I just fit better in Austin than Houston so I was "pre-conforming" more to the former.

The level of conformism in the two cities is not even close to comparable. Austin is one of the most conformist places in the country. It obviously has many positive qualities, but that is not one of them.

(Today 01:03 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  (Also, I was referring to people I know pretty well and with whom I have had quad like discussions - it's not conformism, they simply have a different outlook on these issues.)

I understand that. But I suspect that one reason your sample turned up nothing but declared Democrats is, in addition to the natural tendency of people to select friends who are similar to themselves, the extreme social pressure in Austin to publicly identify as a Democrat.

Fan of Austin, but miss the melting pot of Houston.

In my experience, Austin conformity tends to follow the city's economically segregated housing patterns. Once you get into west or northwest Austin, you have more diversity of political opinion.

If you visit Northwest Little League on any given spring night (between 2222 and Anderson Lane, just east of MoPac, so central Austin these days) you'll even find a few Abbott bumper stickers for all the world to see.
Today 04:27 PM
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