As a G5 fan I've long been fascinated by seeing programs that aren't in a P5 gain separation in recruiting from the mid major pack.

Mostly its the metro area schools. Memphis basketball is an example. It started with being able to get a local TV contract then getting into CUSA when that was a 4 bid NCAA conference with regular appearances on ESPN/ESPN2. They used corporate revenues to their advantage and the geography relatively far from the in-state P5 school to their advantage.

The way TV had been structured from about 1985-2005 was that the BCS/P5 conferences had a national TV mirror in their region on ABC while MWC/CUSA level programs picked up the Thursday, Friday ESPN telecasts or men's basketball midweek. The P5 is now gobbling up all the ESPN slots pushing the G5 to ESPNU or CBS Sports unless its an early season G5 vs. P5 tilt.

Some of it of course is if you move from FCS to FBS. App State and Georgia Southern have created permanent separation from Furman. These are two programs that are just figuring out where they fit into the FBS landscape yet with an SBC that is not done developing.

Coaching is another way to create separation by holding onto a great coach. G5 programs have ponied up in some cases 2 or 3 million dollars to keep them. They'll stick around until a Top 20 job opens up in their region for a few extra years.

In the G5 it's all about player development, long range projections, system fit and pure luck on gambles.

To get an idea where FB recruiting is heading take a look at the Top 10 G5 classes.

35. Houston
42. Memphis
48. UCF
50. Western Michigan
53. USF
61. UTSA
62. Toledo
66. Navy
70. Boise State
71. SMU

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Footbal...amRankings

Traditionally a Top 60 class is about the minimum required to field a Top 20 team. Its what Utah and TCU were doing before they upgraded to P5's now they can pull in Top 40 recruiting classes.

Houston, UTSA and SMU are milking the overflow of P5 level recruits in Texas.

Memphis always had a lot of talent in their backyard but at various times struggles to keep them from heading to SEC schools.

UCF and USF have been very strong recruiting programs for 10 years now.

WMU and Toledo can go head-2-head against weak B1G schools for players. Both are rated ahead of Minnesota, Illinois and Purdue.

Navy has a lot of national exposure playing ND and the academies every year.

Boise State has a lot of tradition to sell.

(11-06-2016 11:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  To get an idea where FB recruiting is heading take a look at the Top 10 G5 classes.

35. Houston
42. Memphis
48. UCF
50. Western Michigan
53. USF
61. UTSA
62. Toledo
66. Navy
70. Boise State
71. SMU

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Footbal...amRankings

Traditionally a Top 60 class is about the minimum required to field a Top 20 team. Its what Utah and TCU were doing before they upgraded to P5's now they can pull in Top 40 recruiting classes.

Houston, UTSA and SMU are milking the overflow of P5 level recruits in Texas.

Memphis always had a lot of talent in their backyard but at various times struggles to keep them from heading to SEC schools.

UCF and USF have been very strong recruiting programs for 10 years now.

WMU and Toledo can go head-2-head against weak B1G schools for players. Both are rated ahead of Minnesota, Illinois and Purdue.

Navy has a lot of national exposure playing ND and the academies every year.

Boise State has a lot of tradition to sell.

Western Michigan had a top 50 recruiting class? How? TCU was putting several guys in the NFL every season in the MWC with classes that didn't sniff the top 50. Every single player was from the local DFW area and Gary Patterson put them on an extreme weight lifting regiment that beefed up small quick 3 star recruits who were overlooked by the Big 12 Texas schools and made them into the stars they always had the potential to be. There's simply so much talent in that market and in the Houston market. Not all of those guys can be taken by the P5 area schools.

Cheers!

(11-06-2016 11:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  To get an idea where FB recruiting is heading take a look at the Top 10 G5 classes.

35. Houston
42. Memphis
48. UCF
50. Western Michigan
53. USF
61. UTSA
62. Toledo
66. Navy
70. Boise State
71. SMU

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Footbal...amRankings

Traditionally a Top 60 class is about the minimum required to field a Top 20 team. Its what Utah and TCU were doing before they upgraded to P5's now they can pull in Top 40 recruiting classes.

Houston, UTSA and SMU are milking the overflow of P5 level recruits in Texas.

Memphis always had a lot of talent in their backyard but at various times struggles to keep them from heading to SEC schools.

UCF and USF have been very strong recruiting programs for 10 years now.

WMU and Toledo can go head-2-head against weak B1G schools for players. Both are rated ahead of Minnesota, Illinois and Purdue.

Navy has a lot of national exposure playing ND and the academies every year.

Boise State has a lot of tradition to sell.

SDSU hasn't had a top 50 class since the early 2000s and we'll continue to be one of the top G5 programs every year with our recruiting classes ranked in the 70s.

(11-06-2016 10:52 PM)k5james Wrote:  In the G5 it's all about player development, long range projections, system fit and pure luck on gambles.

The recent recruiting numbers are saying that most recruits if they cannot get their first or second P5 choice are open to considering an in-state G5 school.

Top 50 state players that are committed yields interesting results.

The MAC has a real strong presence in the Top 50 players of Michigan and Illinois. Ohio which is one of the deepest recruiting states tilts more heavily in favor of the P5 with only 4 MAC players in the Top 50 and 2 AAC players. The MAC also has a high percentage of the top recruits in Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri.

South Carolina has almost as many Top 50 players going to the SBC as what it does the SEC. The ACC not much of a presence and nothing for CUSA.

Ohio
B1G 22
ACC 7
SEC 5
MAC 4
AAC 2
B12 1

Michigan
MAC 18
B1G 10
ACC 3
PAC 2
B12 2
AAC 1

Illinois
B1G 16
MAC 10
AAC 4
SEC 3
B12 2
ACC 1
PAC 1
MWC 1

Virginia
ACC 16
B1G 7
SEC 4
B12 1
MWC 1
AAC 1

North Carolina
ACC 18
AAC 5
SEC 4
B1G 3
B12 1
SBC 1
CUSA 1

South Carolina
SEC 9
SBC 9
ACC 4
MAC 2
AAC 2
MWC 1

(11-06-2016 11:57 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 11:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  To get an idea where FB recruiting is heading take a look at the Top 10 G5 classes.

35. Houston
42. Memphis
48. UCF
50. Western Michigan
53. USF
61. UTSA
62. Toledo
66. Navy
70. Boise State
71. SMU

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Footbal...amRankings

Traditionally a Top 60 class is about the minimum required to field a Top 20 team. Its what Utah and TCU were doing before they upgraded to P5's now they can pull in Top 40 recruiting classes.

Houston, UTSA and SMU are milking the overflow of P5 level recruits in Texas.

Memphis always had a lot of talent in their backyard but at various times struggles to keep them from heading to SEC schools.

UCF and USF have been very strong recruiting programs for 10 years now.

WMU and Toledo can go head-2-head against weak B1G schools for players. Both are rated ahead of Minnesota, Illinois and Purdue.

Navy has a lot of national exposure playing ND and the academies every year.

Boise State has a lot of tradition to sell.

Western Michigan had a top 50 recruiting class? How? TCU was putting several guys in the NFL every season in the MWC with classes that didn't sniff the top 50. Every single player was from the local DFW area and Gary Patterson put them on an extreme weight lifting regiment that beefed up small quick 3 star recruits who were overlooked by the Big 12 Texas schools and made them into the stars they always had the potential to be. There's simply so much talent in that market and in the Houston market. Not all of those guys can be taken by the P5 area schools.

Cheers!

WMU I think is playing off the different states. Competing against Purdue for an Illinois player and Northwestern for a Michigan player.

This is what Phil Steele has for TCU

2002 #66
2003 #63
2004 #57
2005 #56
2006 #71
2007 #70
2010 #60
2011 #32
2012 #41
2013 #39
2014 #44

There was an obvious jump once TCU hit the B12 for sure but their recruiting was decent enough to be in the Top 20 previously.

(11-07-2016 01:51 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 11:57 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 11:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  To get an idea where FB recruiting is heading take a look at the Top 10 G5 classes.

35. Houston
42. Memphis
48. UCF
50. Western Michigan
53. USF
61. UTSA
62. Toledo
66. Navy
70. Boise State
71. SMU

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Footbal...amRankings

Traditionally a Top 60 class is about the minimum required to field a Top 20 team. Its what Utah and TCU were doing before they upgraded to P5's now they can pull in Top 40 recruiting classes.

Houston, UTSA and SMU are milking the overflow of P5 level recruits in Texas.

Memphis always had a lot of talent in their backyard but at various times struggles to keep them from heading to SEC schools.

UCF and USF have been very strong recruiting programs for 10 years now.

WMU and Toledo can go head-2-head against weak B1G schools for players. Both are rated ahead of Minnesota, Illinois and Purdue.

Navy has a lot of national exposure playing ND and the academies every year.

Boise State has a lot of tradition to sell.

Western Michigan had a top 50 recruiting class? How? TCU was putting several guys in the NFL every season in the MWC with classes that didn't sniff the top 50. Every single player was from the local DFW area and Gary Patterson put them on an extreme weight lifting regiment that beefed up small quick 3 star recruits who were overlooked by the Big 12 Texas schools and made them into the stars they always had the potential to be. There's simply so much talent in that market and in the Houston market. Not all of those guys can be taken by the P5 area schools.

Cheers!

WMU I think is playing off the different states. Competing against Purdue for an Illinois player and Northwestern for a Michigan player.

This is what Phil Steele has for TCU

2002 #66
2003 #63
2004 #57
2005 #56
2006 #71
2007 #70
2010 #60
2011 #32
2012 #41
2013 #39
2014 #44

There was an obvious jump once TCU hit the B12 for sure but their recruiting was decent enough to be in the Top 20 previously.

In 2010 TCU was a top 3 team and then a Rose Bowl winner. They did with guys making up the 71st and 70th rated recruiting classes.
Cheers!

(11-06-2016 11:18 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  To get an idea where FB recruiting is heading take a look at the Top 10 G5 classes.

35. Houston
42. Memphis
48. UCF
50. Western Michigan
53. USF
61. UTSA
62. Toledo
66. Navy
70. Boise State
71. SMU

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Footbal...amRankings

Traditionally a Top 60 class is about the minimum required to field a Top 20 team. Its what Utah and TCU were doing before they upgraded to P5's now they can pull in Top 40 recruiting classes.

Houston, UTSA and SMU are milking the overflow of P5 level recruits in Texas.

Memphis always had a lot of talent in their backyard but at various times struggles to keep them from heading to SEC schools.

UCF and USF have been very strong recruiting programs for 10 years now.

WMU and Toledo can go head-2-head against weak B1G schools for players. Both are rated ahead of Minnesota, Illinois and Purdue.

Navy has a lot of national exposure playing ND and the academies every year.

Boise State has a lot of tradition to sell.

BTW, the sporting news magazine I'm looking at (Barton Simmons 24/7) lists the following schools ahead of WMU: (in order)
1. Houston
2. Temple
3. UCF
4. USF
5. Memphis
6. Marshall
7. Boise St
8. WMU
I'm comparing this with your link. That's the problem with ranking high school athletes. It's not an exact science.
Cheers!

No I think there is something to be said for a G5 with a consistent Top 60 class.

BYU is Top 60 sometimes higher and a perpetual threat to break into the Top 25.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using CSNbbs mobile app

Boise State used the WAC ESPN TV deal and racking up wins on an easy schedule to its advantage 15 years ago. Its not possible to command as high percentage of the TV coverage today.

I mean there is stuff like Maction, ESPNNews but not a a Thursday/Friday night outlet to build another Boise.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using CSNbbs mobile app

(11-07-2016 01:27 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 10:52 PM)k5james Wrote:  In the G5 it's all about player development, long range projections, system fit and pure luck on gambles.

The recent recruiting numbers are saying that most recruits if they cannot get their first or second P5 choice are open to considering an in-state G5 school.

Top 50 state players that are committed yields interesting results.

The MAC has a real strong presence in the Top 50 players of Michigan and Illinois. Ohio which is one of the deepest recruiting states tilts more heavily in favor of the P5 with only 4 MAC players in the Top 50 and 2 AAC players. The MAC also has a high percentage of the top recruits in Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri.

South Carolina has almost as many Top 50 players going to the SBC as what it does the SEC. The ACC not much of a presence and nothing for CUSA.

Ohio
B1G 22
ACC 7
SEC 5
MAC 4
AAC 2
B12 1

Michigan
MAC 18
B1G 10
ACC 3
PAC 2
B12 2
AAC 1

Illinois
B1G 16
MAC 10
AAC 4
SEC 3
B12 2
ACC 1
PAC 1
MWC 1

Virginia
ACC 16
B1G 7
SEC 4
B12 1
MWC 1
AAC 1

North Carolina
ACC 18
AAC 5
SEC 4
B1G 3
B12 1
SBC 1
CUSA 1

South Carolina
SEC 9
SBC 9
ACC 4
MAC 2
AAC 2
MWC 1

The Top 50 players of Ohio and South Carolina are in two separate worlds this year. South Carolina has a deep class this year but there is not a lot of top level talent that would interest most P5 programs this year. The Gamecocks are a unique case because they are trying to rebuild some recruiting ties that were broken during the final years of the Spurrier regime and IMO are taking a ton of borderline P5 level talent, and what top level SC talent they are getting Clemson has higher rated talent already committed from out of state. Most years OrTre Smith would be one of Clemson's primary WR targets but by the time he got around to committing Clemson already had commitments from two higher ranked players from Tennessee.

Oh and the last time I checked ODU and FAU were CUSA programs and they both have commitments from Top 50 SC players. The only real shock I see evaluating SC recruiting is the fact that Coastal Carolina isn't taking advantage of both the lack of in-state competition from Clemson and the newness factor of their move-up to become more of a player in-state. A situation like this might not come around again for a while.

I know NDSU is not in the G5, but since it's down a level at the FCS, I do feel it's also relevant.

Their situation comes from geographical oddity. Most of their players come from Minnesota and Wisconsin. Both are states with only a single Big Ten school at the top, and then DII and DIII schools under that. No G5, no FCS.

There are a lot of very good players in MN and WI that aren't at the Big Ten level. And even with the MAC, which is the closest G5 conference, most of its schools are too far away to show interest in MN/WI kids (though they do some).

So NDSU can swoop in and (correctly) say "we have G5 level facilities and fan support, come check us out and play for championships in the FCS level".


And this same reason is why the MN and WI schools in DII and DIII levels are so strong, as well.

Also, I detest when people pretend that recruiting high school kids is a known science, equivalent to mixing paint.

Stars and rankings are horse___.

(11-07-2016 01:27 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 10:52 PM)k5james Wrote:  In the G5 it's all about player development, long range projections, system fit and pure luck on gambles.

The recent recruiting numbers are saying that most recruits if they cannot get their first or second P5 choice are open to considering an in-state G5 school.

Top 50 state players that are committed yields interesting results.

The MAC has a real strong presence in the Top 50 players of Michigan and Illinois. Ohio which is one of the deepest recruiting states tilts more heavily in favor of the P5 with only 4 MAC players in the Top 50 and 2 AAC players. The MAC also has a high percentage of the top recruits in Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri.

South Carolina has almost as many Top 50 players going to the SBC as what it does the SEC. The ACC not much of a presence and nothing for CUSA.

Ohio
B1G 22
ACC 7
SEC 5
MAC 4
AAC 2
B12 1

Michigan
MAC 18
B1G 10
ACC 3
PAC 2
B12 2
AAC 1

Illinois
B1G 16
MAC 10
AAC 4
SEC 3
B12 2
ACC 1
PAC 1
MWC 1

Virginia
ACC 16
B1G 7
SEC 4
B12 1
MWC 1
AAC 1

North Carolina
ACC 18
AAC 5
SEC 4
B1G 3
B12 1
SBC 1
CUSA 1

South Carolina
SEC 9
SBC 9
ACC 4
MAC 2
AAC 2
MWC 1

The 50th best player in Ohio most years is a much better recruit than the 50th best player in Michigan and Illinois. Michigan State or Michigan could easily lock up more of their in state top 50 players, but they would rather go to Ohio, Florida, or Texas and get those players instead because they are perceived to be better. Ohio still produces a lot of quality MAC players. The state just gets raided by Ohio State and other P5 programs first.

Edit: I'd imagine not many Florida, Texas, nor California Top 50 players make it to G5 programs as well.

(11-07-2016 01:14 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-07-2016 01:27 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 10:52 PM)k5james Wrote:  In the G5 it's all about player development, long range projections, system fit and pure luck on gambles.

The recent recruiting numbers are saying that most recruits if they cannot get their first or second P5 choice are open to considering an in-state G5 school.

Top 50 state players that are committed yields interesting results.

The MAC has a real strong presence in the Top 50 players of Michigan and Illinois. Ohio which is one of the deepest recruiting states tilts more heavily in favor of the P5 with only 4 MAC players in the Top 50 and 2 AAC players. The MAC also has a high percentage of the top recruits in Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri.

South Carolina has almost as many Top 50 players going to the SBC as what it does the SEC. The ACC not much of a presence and nothing for CUSA.

Ohio
B1G 22
ACC 7
SEC 5
MAC 4
AAC 2
B12 1

Michigan
MAC 18
B1G 10
ACC 3
PAC 2
B12 2
AAC 1

Illinois
B1G 16
MAC 10
AAC 4
SEC 3
B12 2
ACC 1
PAC 1
MWC 1

Virginia
ACC 16
B1G 7
SEC 4
B12 1
MWC 1
AAC 1

North Carolina
ACC 18
AAC 5
SEC 4
B1G 3
B12 1
SBC 1
CUSA 1

South Carolina
SEC 9
SBC 9
ACC 4
MAC 2
AAC 2
MWC 1

The Top 50 players of Ohio and South Carolina are in two separate worlds this year. South Carolina has a deep class this year but there is not a lot of top level talent that would interest most P5 programs this year. The Gamecocks are a unique case because they are trying to rebuild some recruiting ties that were broken during the final years of the Spurrier regime and IMO are taking a ton of borderline P5 level talent, and what top level SC talent they are getting Clemson has higher rated talent already committed from out of state. Most years OrTre Smith would be one of Clemson's primary WR targets but by the time he got around to committing Clemson already had commitments from two higher ranked players from Tennessee.

Oh and the last time I checked ODU and FAU were CUSA programs and they both have commitments from Top 50 SC players. The only real shock I see evaluating SC recruiting is the fact that Coastal Carolina isn't taking advantage of both the lack of in-state competition from Clemson and the newness factor of their move-up to become more of a player in-state. A situation like this might not come around again for a while.

We thank you for your lack of interest in Ortre

Good weather. Metropolitan city. Lots of good looking women. Awesome facilities.

(11-07-2016 03:46 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(11-07-2016 01:14 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-07-2016 01:27 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(11-06-2016 10:52 PM)k5james Wrote:  In the G5 it's all about player development, long range projections, system fit and pure luck on gambles.

The recent recruiting numbers are saying that most recruits if they cannot get their first or second P5 choice are open to considering an in-state G5 school.

Top 50 state players that are committed yields interesting results.

The MAC has a real strong presence in the Top 50 players of Michigan and Illinois. Ohio which is one of the deepest recruiting states tilts more heavily in favor of the P5 with only 4 MAC players in the Top 50 and 2 AAC players. The MAC also has a high percentage of the top recruits in Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Missouri.

South Carolina has almost as many Top 50 players going to the SBC as what it does the SEC. The ACC not much of a presence and nothing for CUSA.

Ohio
B1G 22
ACC 7
SEC 5
MAC 4
AAC 2
B12 1

Michigan
MAC 18
B1G 10
ACC 3
PAC 2
B12 2
AAC 1

Illinois
B1G 16
MAC 10
AAC 4
SEC 3
B12 2
ACC 1
PAC 1
MWC 1

Virginia
ACC 16
B1G 7
SEC 4
B12 1
MWC 1
AAC 1

North Carolina
ACC 18
AAC 5
SEC 4
B1G 3
B12 1
SBC 1
CUSA 1

South Carolina
SEC 9
SBC 9
ACC 4
MAC 2
AAC 2
MWC 1

The Top 50 players of Ohio and South Carolina are in two separate worlds this year. South Carolina has a deep class this year but there is not a lot of top level talent that would interest most P5 programs this year. The Gamecocks are a unique case because they are trying to rebuild some recruiting ties that were broken during the final years of the Spurrier regime and IMO are taking a ton of borderline P5 level talent, and what top level SC talent they are getting Clemson has higher rated talent already committed from out of state. Most years OrTre Smith would be one of Clemson's primary WR targets but by the time he got around to committing Clemson already had commitments from two higher ranked players from Tennessee.

Oh and the last time I checked ODU and FAU were CUSA programs and they both have commitments from Top 50 SC players. The only real shock I see evaluating SC recruiting is the fact that Coastal Carolina isn't taking advantage of both the lack of in-state competition from Clemson and the newness factor of their move-up to become more of a player in-state. A situation like this might not come around again for a while.

We thank you for your lack of interest in Ortre

We'll comfort ourselves in the fact we got Tee and Amari.

TCU, Utah, and Boise altered their approach to recruiting in a way that doesn't really show up in rankings. From a Utah perspective, you may have a low 3 star kid who is a coach's son, went to all the camps, is fundamentally solid, and an all star at the high school level versus a really athletic low 3 star kid who played HS basketball, picked up football as a sophomore, and made local honorable mention lists in his second year of FB. If that second kid was willing to buy into the school's development approach, then he (and not the coach's son) got the offer. They systematically focused on underdeveloped high ceiling kids and relied on their development system to turn them into football players.

Part 2, is you have to get lucky at QB. QB is the hardest position to project and has the most limited amount of reap to go around so talent gets spread wider. Landing a real NFL QB at a midmajor happens, but it's hard to just make it happen. Utah and TCU lucked into NFL QBs in Smith and Dalton while Boise landed an elite college QB in Moore. There's a fair amount of luck in that timing.

So I think the answer is that a G5 school has to have a coach with a system, recruit under the radar talent to the system, and have an admin and fanbase that will support the coaches through this transition. And when things get rolling you hope that you have a great QB in the system. Everybody knows the recipe, but few can pull it off.

(11-07-2016 05:32 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  TCU, Utah, and Boise altered their approach to recruiting in a way that doesn't really show up in rankings. From a Utah perspective, you may have a low 3 star kid who is a coach's son, went to all the camps, is fundamentally solid, and an all star at the high school level versus a really athletic low 3 star kid who played HS basketball, picked up football as a sophomore, and made local honorable mention lists in his second year of FB. If that second kid was willing to buy into the school's development approach, then he (and not the coach's son) got the offer. They systematically focused on underdeveloped high ceiling kids and relied on their development system to turn them into football players.

Part 2, is you have to get lucky at QB. QB is the hardest position to project and has the most limited amount of reap to go around so talent gets spread wider. Landing a real NFL QB at a midmajor happens, but it's hard to just make it happen. Utah and TCU lucked into NFL QBs in Smith and Dalton while Boise landed an elite college QB in Moore. There's a fair amount of luck in that timing.

So I think the answer is that a G5 school has to have a coach with a system, recruit under the radar talent to the system, and have an admin and fanbase that will support the coaches through this transition. And when things get rolling you hope that you have a great QB in the system. Everybody knows the recipe, but few can pull it off.

And don't forget that Utah tapped into the islands for all those years in the WAC and MWC. You guys recruited a lot of Samoan NFL studs back before the "power schools" knew about that pipeline. Ditto BYU. Lots of those guys are LDS.
Cheers!