And believe me I know all about their history, from Dr. Jack Ramsey to their upset over DePaul in the Dance in the early 80's.

(11-03-2016 01:18 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Saint Joe's is living off their reputation, being in the Big 5 and A-10.

You can say the same about Villanova and the Big East, UPenn and the Ivy League, and Drexel floating out there in the abyss for not being in the Big Five. Of course being in the Big Five has its benefits, as do other conference affiliations...Philly has a hoops pulse running through it.

You're not wrong about their size and other departmental challenges...if the school didn't put the resources into its operations and its athletics, it would be La Salle, and those guys are fading away. As in, as an institution that can continue to operate.

No, I'm afraid you can't say the same for Penn, when was the last time they competed for the national title, 1979? And even that was a fluke.

(11-03-2016 12:44 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  No, I'm afraid you can't say the same for Penn, when was the last time they competed for the national title, 1979? And even that was a fluke.

Penn was a pretty competitive program when Fran Dunphy was there, too. He was able to recruit guys other Ivies couldn't because the guy is so darn good at what he does, while still able to sort smart, valuable talent to people who might want to play basketball, but don't once they get into an Ivy school. That's been a HUGE challenge across Ivy and Patriot institutions.

Also, they won a Big Five crown this century under Dunphy, and did so going 4-0 in the Big Five that year (2001-2). That was Wright's first year at 'Nova (took them to the NIT), Chaney at Temple (NIT), Martelli was at St. Joe's (again, NIT), and Hahn at La Salle (going 15-17 that year). Not exactly "banner" for Philly, but not trash, either.

Consider where Penn could be if it was Lehigh or Bucknell. Nobody mistakes UPenn from the Patriot schools, and Patriot is good for some quality institutions. Being in Philly, where that tradition of Big Five play has an impact on recruitment unlike other urban collegiate collectives or blocs...they're a different kind of operation. You can tell Harvard is trying to copy what Penn was doing for years.

Polls do not mean jack yet!

^

They don't mean anything at all in college basketball other than publicity and for girth measuring contests.

(11-07-2016 01:27 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(11-03-2016 12:44 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  No, I'm afraid you can't say the same for Penn, when was the last time they competed for the national title, 1979? And even that was a fluke.

Penn was a pretty competitive program when Fran Dunphy was there, too. He was able to recruit guys other Ivies couldn't because the guy is so darn good at what he does, while still able to sort smart, valuable talent to people who might want to play basketball, but don't once they get into an Ivy school. That's been a HUGE challenge across Ivy and Patriot institutions.

Also, they won a Big Five crown this century under Dunphy, and did so going 4-0 in the Big Five that year (2001-2). That was Wright's first year at 'Nova (took them to the NIT), Chaney at Temple (NIT), Martelli was at St. Joe's (again, NIT), and Hahn at La Salle (going 15-17 that year). Not exactly "banner" for Philly, but not trash, either.

Consider where Penn could be if it was Lehigh or Bucknell. Nobody mistakes UPenn from the Patriot schools, and Patriot is good for some quality institutions. Being in Philly, where that tradition of Big Five play has an impact on recruitment unlike other urban collegiate collectives or blocs...they're a different kind of operation. You can tell Harvard is trying to copy what Penn was doing for years.

I never said Penn wasn't good at their level but they can't compete at the level of a St. Joe's thanks to the academic restrictions.

(11-07-2016 03:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I never said Penn wasn't good at their level but they can't compete at the level of a St. Joe's thanks to the academic restrictions.

Don't you think that's relative, though? Good teams and discipline still stand for something, and that was how UPenn used to do it. It's a shame they lost Dunphy to the school down Broad; I suspect he could have taken a UPenn squad on a good run or two in this "new era" where the game is so bogged down with stoppages and the NBA requirements.

Would we be surprised if Harvard started living up to its hype in the preseason and it translated to some degree of post-season success? With the right coach, Penn could be the same. And it would come at the expense of the other Philly powers, I'd bet.

I just don't see a way Penn will compete for a Final Four except another George Mason/VCU-like fluke as in 1979. St. Joe's recently had a season where they lost 2 games and were a shot away from the Final Four.

(11-07-2016 05:06 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I just don't see a way Penn will compete for a Final Four except another George Mason/VCU-like fluke as in 1979. St. Joe's recently had a season where they lost 2 games and were a shot away from the Final Four.

I wouldn't call the '79 thing a fluke, though. There were three Elite Eight appearances then, as well as four Sweet Sixteen's, too (yeah, sure, smaller field), all in the 70's. Back then, and UPenn basically owned the Ivy League AND Big Five that decade, UPenn was already doing what some people are questioning what Harvard is currently doing up there with its recruiting. That "veil" the Ivy schools use to fund/subsidize its students and not call them scholarships...Penn was pulling that stuff ages ago.

Don't get me wrong, I love St. Joe's...but I can't help but think, looking at the uncertain landscape of higher education and its ailing enrollment, especially at these smaller private colleges, this might be as good as it ever gets for the Hawks. La Salle has a championship banner in their arena...it's not saving them regionally as an institution, though.

It was still a fluke, they were a 9 seed that year. At best, we can say it was unexpected.

Villanova is in repeat neighborhood. When was the last time two consecutive titles were won by the same school?



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(11-08-2016 11:54 AM)fishpro1098 Wrote:  Villanova is in repeat neighborhood. When was the last time two consecutive titles were won by the same school?
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Florida 2006-07.

before that have to go back to Duke 1991-92.

Only 2 repeats since UCLA.